Damn.. I already have more than that in my 401k, and with my IRA quite a bit more, and I am barely into my 30's. Baby Boomers are the worst frikken generation ever in the history of the country.

Interesting, it always seems to be the government employees with taxpayer funded pensions, who are quick to blame corporations and make these points.

In what way do you think they suck? How is getting free money sucking?

You sound like the people that don't save and need some kind of reason to rationalize it to make yourself feel better.

They've worked out great for my retired co-workers and by all indications it will be working out fine for me in about 2 years.

Maybe less.

There are no "demands" with SS, you either get a specified amount or you don't.

And you continue to evade answering what options you think are better and what you do instead.

Never. gonna. happen.

is welfare for old folks. they just need to stop with the 'you get it back' and simply admit its a tax to support old folks and you have no choice in whether its taken from your pay. why should ss take x from me, reducing my ability to participate in an open economy and not take the same x from somebody making millions of dollars a year? the impact ss has on my pay is significant. that impact should be felt by all.

and means test on the other end. dude with 100,000,000.00 invested in treasuries returning 2 or 3 percent a year (or whatever else he is invested in) doesnt need his ss money back.

and sure it aint fair (not getting it on the back end). but then few things are.

How do you end social security? And when you do end it do I get all the money back that I've been paying into it?

Thanks for the info

When I get home tonight I'll give that a read, also thanks for the link for the Roth.

Never to early to start saving

When did you first realize you were a socialist?

Actuarial tables are indiscriminate.  Private or public, the pain exists.

You're just a thrill a minute aren't you

There's already a form of means testing in place.

The same way it was started- an act of Congress. I suppose you could just fire all its employees for the same effect, maybe.

No. Your money gets spent the same month the government gets it. There is no 'account' for you in SS. It just draws from the Treasury. SS is a tax. Nothing more. The smart thing to do would have been to plan your retirement under the assumption that SS will never pay you a dime. Why would anyone trust the federal government like that?

Compared to a defined benefit plan which they took the place of they fall short. Risk, return, and fees. Read the last 3 or so pages of this thread or google " 401k creator regret" and "401k monster"

As for me saving, ask me how I know you have not read this thread or many of the threads on retirement I have replied in

Defined benefit plans are better in my opinion and the opinion of the guy that made the 401k. 401k's main purpose was to do away with those and to make others wealthy with fees.

Can someone do well with a 401k, yes. Can someone lose their ass, yes. Are there better options, yes.  I found it ironic that the creator of these things had to delay his own retirement in 2008 due to the market.

ETA -

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/401k-founder-my-creation-is-a-monster/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-inventor-of-the-401k-says-he-created-a-monster-2016-05-16

https://www.marketplace.org/2013/06/13/sustainability/consumed/father-modern-401k-says-it-fails-many-americans

https://www.npr.org/2017/01/03/508075236/retirement-account-pioneers-regret-what-they-started

You don't, it will only end if there is a dollar collapse and then no retirement will matter.

At 62 you can start drawing your your money in a monthly check. Will you get back everything you have paid in, well depends on how many years you live.

I have a website login that says you are wrong, it even has my account number.

You are not drawing your money.  Your money is long gone.

Say what you want but I have a website that shows my money at a certain age and even an account number

industry and government alike have already discovered that longer lifespans and higher medical costs lead to impossible pension obligations. the ratio of workers to retirees simply becomes overly asymmetric; in the case of a corporation this leads to higher SG&A and pension costs, decreasing profits (if any), and in the case of a government (local, state, federal) it leads to increased taxes and less spending on important stuff like infrastructure. neither of these situations can be sustained long term; they both end badly. exhibit A: GM in 2008.

specific to a corporation, a huge healthcare and pension obligation becomes an immense drag on the company at many levels, and for a long, long time with much unpredictability. for example, it hampers the ability of the company to dynamically size according to market conditions. this affects both hiring and firing. furthermore, employment itself has changed; more folks switch jobs more often now in contrast to when pensions were first instituted. so the "30 year company employee" is less and less common in a corporation.

for this reason, i disagree with premise stipulated earlier in this thread that 401k's were a result of companies which "saw opportunity to increase their profits". companies either had to kill their pension plans or scale them back to the point that there was no point in having a pension plan. unlike government, the future of any company depends on operating at a financial break-even point, at worst. once pension obligations begin to cast an economic shadow over breaking even, and there is an economic downturn, it's all over. at best the bondholders will get ten cents on the dollar. the ONLY thing that extended the lifespan of pensions was the advent of investing pension monies in a rising stock market and even volatile derivatives. when stock market returns were good, and they were for a VERY long time, the pension fund managers were heroes. when they bet wrong, especially on derivatives... exhibit B: Orange County, CA.

finally, a self-directed 401k or IRA gives *me*, the individual, control over my retirement finances; if my company "1.com" fails because the people upstairs are idiots, well, i walk down the street to company "2.com" and get a job there, and carry on with my life. my 401k can stay with the first company's custodian, i can roll it into an IRA, or i can roll it into my new 401k. so easy, many cavemen and cavewomen do it every day. otherwise, i have to worry with a conventional pension that my company will pull a UAL, and i'll get exactly squat + a little bit –– just like the 122,000 employees of United did. i like having control over my own destiny. the portable nature of the 401k, and the ability to seamlessly convert it to an IRA, is a good thing in my mind, as an employee.

that said, i joined the company i work for at the tail end of their pension plan. i accumulated approximately 10 years of pension before the plan was terminated. i was also contributing to my 401k during this period. all new hires have only the 401k; the match is generous. i will receive a pension payment when i retire. i will have my savings, my 401k, my IRA's (both types), my pension, and the Govt's social security to draw from in retirement. note that there are very few other companies in the technology industry with pension plans. it is an industry that concurrently requires corporate workforce flexibility and demands that employees stay current on their area of expertise. this is very different from being employed as a government sanitation worker.

given the choice of a self-directed 401k or a corporate pension with an unknown ending, i will take the 401k. i've got big boy pants on, and i don't need the counterparty risk associated with a pension.

for government employees, many really tough tests are upcoming –– first at the municipal level, then the state level. neither of these entities have printing presses like the federal government does. when financial "band-aid'ing" runs it's course in CA, IL, NJ, and so on, budget cuts will force public employee pensions to be reduced. the system as it is running now is unsustainable. Ponzi schemes ALWAYS eventually crash, no matter how much goodwill was intended.

the primary reason that pensions work for government is THAT GOVERNMENT NEVER SHRINKS -- it just grows larger.

corporations follow darwin-like business cycles, with both internal (e.g. business mistakes) and external (e.g. economic) factors defining their lifespan.  and, this means that eventually a business will have to shrink, just like GE and TESLA and KODAK and SEARS and every business eventually does.  one day, APPLE and AMAZON will shrink, as sure as the sun is coming up tomorrow; just like the "invincible" companies of the past shrank -- US STEEL, IBM, and so on.

the only way a pension plan works is if the business either stays at the same size (with constant pension costs) or grows larger (with increased pension costs).  once the business starts shrinking, it's over for the pensioners.  just ask UAL pension plan participants.

ar-jedi

That would be relevant if the defined benefit plan was ever coming back for the majority of workers. It isn't, so it's not an option. It's also highly problematic for a mobile work force where people change jobs more often than they change their clothes. If you want defined benefit you can get pretty much the same result by getting increasingly conservative as you approach retirement, and then just use the $ to buy an annuity. Problem solved.

If we're talking about major changes, 401k could be more portable as well. Maybe what we need to do, is separate retirement savings accounts from employers, and greatly expand the IRA and allow employer contributions to it. IRAs offer a TON of investment flexibility, so if you like defined benefit you could invest in a product that gives it to you. Don't like high fees? Capitalism would solve that if you can take your $ anywhere you wanted at any time you chose to do so.

I actually pay less in fees with my 401k money than I do with vanguard in my IRA. It's not a maxim that 401k = high fee investments. Some companies have crappy plans, but it's not a feature of the plan design, it's just dumb businesses doing dumb things. That's a better arguement for getting them out of your retirement account than it is then taking your retirement $ over like traditional defined benefit.

the number of "muh individual rights" folks on ARFCOM who think that tying their long term financial status to unstable flat-broke entities (for example, practically every level of local, state, and federal government) is a good idea continues to amaze me. incidentally, these retired folks become wards of the state: after retirement, they have no choice but to vote for politicians who claim that their version of big government will save their pensions. no matter what else that party stands for, or against, from an economic perspective these pensioned retirees are forced to vote for the party and politicians who keep the federal government printing more money and the local and state taxes going up.

"but i was promised... it was in the contract... they told me... "

folks here don't depend on the police to physically protect them 100% of the time, and similarly no one should expect their ex-employer (even the gov't) to financially protect them 100% of the time.

those that say, "a 401k is a poor substitute for a pension"...

i don't want a job with a pension plan, which by definition is tied to an ex-employer who does not have any fiduciary duty to me whatsoever and/or is subject to varied unknowable future conditions.

i can take care of myself, and don't need the risk associated with some bean-counter accountant at ACME Rockets (which bought Cogswell's Cogs, who earlier had merged with my prior employer Spacely's Sprockets) deciding to declare bankruptcy and completely screwing up my retirement finances. the only people who win in those situations are the lawyers and the hedge fund managers like @midcap

a 401k is about individual retirement funding responsibility, versus being subject to the financial status (good *or* bad) of an employer you worked for 10-20-30 years prior.

with a pension, you and your employer part ways from an actual compensated work perspective, yet you remain tied together in perpetuity because of reasons.
and the reasons on their end are not under your control *at all*. shortfalls, bankruptcy, etc all could loom -- and you can do NOTHING about it except yell into the wind.

ar-jedi

Which is mainly due to the 401k.

That is not the norm though. I posted some links earlier that are informative and from the founder of the 401k.

Maybe he doesn't do electronic statements or has an admiral account under 10K.

How do I get back all of the money in taxes that I paid for services I've never used?

It's often a problem, yes.
Employees are the ones making that profit possible.
American workers should not be treated like third world trash just because some guy in a foreign country gets paid a dollar a day

Social Security accounting is like the brief case full of IOU’s from the movie Dumb And Dumber. There is nothing there and is simply money that comes into the general fund and gets immediately spent each month to keep the government functioning.

You have no account other than an onlone tracking tool that shows what you would have gotten if it did in fact pay out (which it won’t if you’re under 45) and there is t enough money on the planet to satisfy the 160 TRILLION $ of unfounded liabilities. Unfounded liabilities are not the cost of the actual program, it is the difference between the IOU’s in the brief case (which there isn’t even money to back up) and the actual cost of the program for everyone who will draw from and pay into it. Scary shit...

In response to your first sentence of your last reply, what makes them fall short?  Explain in detail beyond three words.  And if they do, then that means you are a big fan of immediate annuities then, right?

BAD ADVICE !

Start putting away what you can in 401k, IRA, Roth IRA now. Take advantage of compounding.  
If you can afford 12-15% and keep it up, you can retire early if you want and comfortably.

Read Start here
You don’t have to be smart , just disciplined.
Put it in low fee index funds at Vanguard or Fidelity and/or your work 401k.  You can open a Roth account at those places yourself, and maybe also a regular IRA.

I swear our government school systems want you to fail financially by not teaching a few retirement investing principles.

I’m 36 and may end up doing this at some point. I don’t think I can work for someone else for the next 25-30 years doing what I do.

Over 10 years ago we got the letter from the Onion welfare plan that the pension was in the "RedZone". My fellow brothers shrugged it off and believed they would be set for life and ignored the letters that came every year saying the same thing. I found Out I could retire early and get 60% of what I'd get if I stuck around to 65 when the fund WILL go broke and I'd get $0. The fund now has 38 Billion in future liabilities and 16 billion in actual assets. It  was at this time that I realized 98% of my co workers were financially illiterate. My wife and I started socking away her pay check in 401K and mutual funds. In October 2017 I added up what putting our money on black on the Roulette wheel did for us over 10 years. Dividends reinvestment and compounded interest worked. I had maxed out my IRA and HSA deductions bringing my AGI down over 20K a year. Retired at 58 3/4 after finding out by getting my MAGI to around 21K a year I can get free 0 Silver Plan care. Couple years we had income of 100K  but most not. We lived within our means. Didn't go out and buy 60K p/u's. We're in the top 9% of assets. Most are at 50% with little or none. I cashed out everything a year ago and it's making 3% waiting for the upcoming market shake out and then buying opportunities.

I’m 66, with SS app in process.  I would vote to phase out SS. As long as they gave me the actuarial value of my account minus reasonable amounts for the “insurance” that SS provides.

When exactly is this market shakeout coming?

Monday. Dow 10k

damn.  i was going to go get a haircut tomorrow, then pick up a couple of cases of wine, and now THIS.   something always comes up.

Questions. I'm a 28 year old single father to a 9 year old.  I started contributing 6% of my ~$80k income last year.  I own a rather cheap home($55k), that I should have paid off in the next 5 years.  My goal after I pay the home off is to max out my contributions.  Anything else I can or should be doing right now to set my self up for success in my retirement years?

Look into HSAs.  Best kept secret out there if you can invest the money per your company's setup and can stand a high deductible plan.

Oh, you'll be getting that haircut alright.  

What's the interest rate on your home loan?

I'd have a hard time paying a home off early if I were not already MAXING my deferred compensation in my 401k.

Set yourself up for success?  Max your 401k contribution NOW, and contribute even more to a ROTH to help make up for lost time while you were contributing 6%.  

My home is 4.8% fixed

I have already explained that and even linked the creators opinion in this thread, search and read.

So do you like immediate annuities?  I'm asking for your opnions, not regurgitated ones.

And so you feel as if immediate annuities are a better deal than 401ks?

If you would the read the damn thread like I said you would see I asked about annuities and even claimed I'm just starting to research them. Yet as usual you don't read, as a person that has a vested interest in 401k as a career I'm not really surprised.

I know jack shit about annuities but will likely be obtaining one from Vanguard when I sell my rentals to go with my other retirement vehicles. Read man, its all there within the last 2-3 pages.

Hmm, while not an awesome rate, it is still historically low.  I'd still be inclined to reduce my taxable income, and fund a Roth now, in favor of waiting 5 years just to get "started".

  Good luck with that.

Free haircuts for almost everyone.  I doubt if it's this Monday though.

You sound like you have it together.   Still in school, working, and want to start retirement savings.  Go for it. Save up $1000 cash and then open up a Roth IRA account  with it at https://investor.vanguard.com/home/
Put it in Total Stock Market fund (VTSAX).
Add what you can afford each month.  Don’t pay much attention to balance for a couple of years.  Just concentrate on how you can save.  And read the Bogleheads forum like I told ya in my other post.
Thank me in 20+ years!

Such anger

I would be interested in your take on immediate annuities once you research.  What you will find is that payouts are not near as attractive as many night think, especial people with pensions.  Why you might ask?  Because they are based on sustainable math, unlike many pensions.

As someone's who retirement livelihood is based on unsustainable math, guaranteed by the barrel of the government's guns, I think you will see what I am talking about.  No need to pitch a hissy fit because I like to chime in and ask you questions. I

for the record, my career is based on financial advice, absent of any commissions or AUM fees (at least for the time being).

BTW I worked closely with immediate annuities for a number of years, so feel free to ask questions.  I would be happy to help.