Quoted:


WTF would his class go up when he enters a harder division?

Someone going from production to another division may have better hit factors due to less mag changes, major scoring, an optic, etc. but their percentile in that division will likely be similar.

Quoted:
He is literally making the same arguments everyone made about red dots on rifles 20 years ago… at great lengths.

You aren’t going to be good with irons on pistol if you don’t practice.
You also aren’t going to be good with a RDS on a pistol if you don’t practice.

My experience is red dots ARE objectively better.

Quoted:


Where he is off the mark is where he is making the politically correct statement "everyone should try them." Few people are very well served by plunking $300 - $500 into electronics that are going to sit atop a CCW piece.

Red dots on pistols and red dots on rifles are two totally different animals, and folks who try to argue otherwise clearly don't have much time on either platform. Rifles have 2+ points of contact, much better eye relief, and single points of aim (dots) work exceptionally well when you are dealing with a trajectory that allows for +/- 3" from 0 to about 225 yards.

I have yet to see any shooter, pro or otherwise, who is faster, consistently, 7 yards and in, with a red dot on a pistol. Nearly every shooter I've seen is MUCH more accurate with a dot from 10+ yards out, and most are faster as well, many significantly so. That is different from rifles, where a dot is often faster at ALL distances. Dots also make it much easier to train new/low roundcount shooters. That fact alone is likely driving the massive adoption by LE and MIL.

But for most folks, in the CCW arena, they are a liability, despite the wild claims from the keyboard commando crowd.

So for me, it really comes down to what I expect to do with a handgun, and what distances I reasonably expect to be engaging things.

Quoted:
I didn't watch the video but have no interest in one for a carry gun, mainly because it's just something else to fail, gonna get dirty, banged around, adds a different size dimension and limited holster options. Just unnecessary 25 yards and in and not as intuitive imo as good irons. For range, hunting, property/ranch etc. they're cool.

Quoted:
Nearly every shooter I've seen is MUCH more accurate with a dot from 10+ yards out

most are faster as well, many significantly so.

Dots also make it much easier to train new/low roundcount shooters.

they are a liability

Quoted:
I just shot a 1.72 second Bill Drill with my Carry Optics gun.

Is that not faster enough?

Funnily enough, I could see my dot at that speed.

Quoted:
The red dot on pistols may be good for some of you city guys but mine have been useless about half of the times ive needed them. Too much SXS dust or running outside to smoke a yote in the livestock only to have it fog up everything from the sudden temperature change. not anymore.

Quoted:


Without actually taking you out to a range and showing you on a timer the easiest way to demonstrate is to point to what Open Division shooters are running. Visible light lasers are legal in USPSA Open and IDPA CO yet statistically zero people use them.  I say statistically zero because I’m sure someone out there is using them, but I’ve never seen it. Hell, I’ve never even heard of it.  In a venue in which people will throw obscene amounts of money in order to gain fractions of seconds over the course of a day, why is that?

Easy… because they do not add anything in terms of performance. Why? You have no user feedback unless you’re already on target.  Even in the scenarios you’re describing they’re slower and I only say that because I’ve done it with both.

Hell, even with a rifle they’re slower.  A visible light laser is legal in PCC Division and I use one for that application, however, it is only useful in an extremely narrow range of circumstances which don’t translate well to the real world. Typical start position is “stock on belt, muzzle downrange”.  If I can start lazing steel and get a round off at the buzzer around 0.3-ish seconds it’s money.  I’ll even pull a double on paper if it’s an open target within 5 meters or so because that’s usually good for 0.6-ish seconds for two Alphas. But anything on paper beyond that it’s faster to use aimed fire and actually bring the rifle up to your shoulder because if you’re reliant upon the laser you’re getting a lot of muzzle movement so your split times are going to be up to double what they would be otherwise. Without the artificial construct of a defined start position it’s just an ounce of dead weight on the gun.

Visible light lasers gargle ballsack on an industrial scale.  There’s a reason nobody really considers them a viable option outside of TV and movies.

Quoted:


Do you even know who Ken Hackathorn is or his background?

You have zero clue what you are talking about, nor did you (and many of you) actually listen with an open mind or absorb what he said.

Aside from him talking about the negatives (and positives) of people who think the RDS is the wheel. I think he really upset the 50-100rd every few months (if not 2-3x a year) at the indoor range crowd who thinks they are competent crowd.  

I do love when Ken picks on the AIWB crowd though, they get their dick all twisted.

Quoted:
This will no doubt rustle some jimmies!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjlL0hYgdag

Quoted:



Okay, you discuss many times "take me out to the range"

Scenario.

Night time, in your house, darkness. You hear a bump in the night.

You have family members.  You have NOT established legally you can even use deadly force.

You turn on your flashlight and scan your premises; if you see something outside your cone you are moving light onto the target.

You should, and need to, identify if the subject, if there is one, is armed.  So you need the weapon low so it doesn't obscure your view.   Do you agree?  If you dont, you may be faster, but you're unsafe and probably going to be at risk at shooting an unarmed man as your weapon is obstructing what you can see.

If the subject is a threat, you have a light on him/her.

At this point you raise the weapon to get a sight picture, and sight through an RDS, OR, with a laser aligned with a flashlight, you are 90% there and you engage.  

FWIW, I have a RDS, it is on my CCW, and I use it.  I have trained with RDS for 25 years and lasers for 30. I would use an RDS for every situation other then the one I am describing.  Nighttime 0200 home defense, darkness, close range. Here I think a green laser/white light is better.

I am getting a strong signal you are talking daylight shooting of cardboard where you are just transitioning, daylight to daylight, minimal ROE decisions, and you are scanning through the sight because there is no decision making involved.

I say again, you cite studies that lasers are slower but you don't produce said studies and you aren't addressing the specific situation I describe.  You just say, they suck.

Ive got enough experience in deadly shoot/no shoot situations to say there is more to this then raw speed, especially under suboptimal conditions. Your USPSA/IDPA experiences are, daylight, no decision making, no shoot/no shoot without a walkthrough, correct?  Because, yeah, Ive done IDPA before, nothing against it, but the conditions and standards are not the same.

That being said, I'm okay with being educated.  As Ive said, I own an RDS and shoot with it regularly, but there are situations where other choices seem better to me. You just don't seem to have the data.

Quoted:
I'll share my recent experience. I've shot pistols for 30 years, never with a red dot, until I bought this PSA 5.7 last month.. It takes me forever to find the dot. I can't raise the pistol up and take a shot without spending a lot of seconds to find the dot. Do I have to get used to it? Maybe that will come with time and training, but right now, a red dot it nothing but a liability for me.

I am not very encouraged so far.

Quoted:
I'll share my recent experience. I've shot pistols for 30 years, never with a red dot, until I bought this PSA 5.7 last month.. It takes me forever to find the dot. I can't raise the pistol up and take a shot without spending a lot of seconds to find the dot. Do I have to get used to it? Maybe that will come with time and training, but right now, a red dot it nothing but a liability for me.

I am not very encouraged so far.

Quoted:


I know people who have glasses that work great for static shooting,
But the odd positions, etc. Required of certain dynamic gun games have resulted in not finding an optimal setup.

Quoted:
I'll share my recent experience. I've shot pistols for 30 years, never with a red dot, until I bought this PSA 5.7 last month.. It takes me forever to find the dot. I can't raise the pistol up and take a shot without spending a lot of seconds to find the dot. Do I have to get used to it? Maybe that will come with time and training, but right now, a red dot it nothing but a liability for me.

I am not very encouraged so far.

Quoted:
The mental gymnastics to justify not using a RDS and/or a light blow my mind. This must have been what this site would have been like in the early 90’s when rifle red dots were first coming into vogue.

Quoted:
Fuddsplaining why red dots are bad.

I couldn't take too much of that... When he decried how you have a big problem with red dots after the initial shot because you would then have to re-aquire the dot, I lol'd. So this phenomenon doesn't happen with irons? Right.

There is nothing new in that video. "Muh irons are just as gud for self defense range" is derp. Sure 1-7, or 1-10 yards as he said, is the average for self defense. Why not be better-prepared in the event your scenario is not the average? I mean fuck we just had the good Samaritan with a major win at the mall.

Not gonna comment on the rest. It's been done befo.

Quoted:


In no way is this correct.

He has some good points and other areas where he is completely and demonstrably off the mark.

First, the good.

Open emitters are subject to foreign object and debris. Based upon my experience with them in the field this is not as big of an issue as some make it out to be (particularly with moisture), but it is to be considered. Closed emitter optics largely mitigate these concerns.

If you don't train, or only shoot a couple of times a year under completely benign conditions a MRDS is a poor choice for you. They are not without a learning curve. If you expect to just pick it up and go to work expect to have a bad time.

Cost? Yes, but that goes without saying.

The bad  Where to begin?

He completely underestimates the benefits and skill building properties of dryfire. With a crushing support hand grip you are absolutely setting yourself up for gains in terms of transitions and doubles. You do need to confirm in live fire but to act as though there is so transitional benefit is simply untrue.

His statement that "if I spent 100,000 rounds shooting with irons and training to focus on the front sight it will take 100,001 rounds to train myself to focus on the target."  Aside from the fact that under most conditions target focus with irons out to reasonable ranges has been accepted practice for well over a decade, this is 100% bullshit. I've trained long time iron sight shooters to overcome this over a weekend course. This is easy to demonstrate.

"They provide no performance benefit from contact distance to 10 yards". Again, complete horseshit. Go to a USPSA or IDPA match and compare speed and accuracy from class to class between Production and CO or ESP to CO. There is a measurable performance delta in speed and accuracy. This has been demonstrated in the Sage Dynamics Whitepaper and elsewhere.

Comparing visible light lasers to MRDSs as a trend. Not comparable. Why? Timers exist. Lasers never showed a performance advantage and are measurably inferior to aimed fire. The potential performance delta of a MRDS is measurable.

As an aside, I was a little surprised with his statement about "I've put a LOT of rounds through these guns" that he's owned in some cases for years. Come to find out it's about 20k rounds for all of them. I don't really consider that a lot of someone who's entire life revolves around shooting or even a serious hobbyist.

Also  the garbage about WMLs sounds like an old man yelling at clouds. Go to a low light force on force or even a night action shoot. Run it with a handheld and then with a WML. Compare scores and get back to me.

Quoted:


Bucket?

I don’t understand this comment.

There’s very little difference between a holster for an iron sighted pistol and one with a dot.

In fact in some cases they’re identical.

Quoted:



I changed the picture with a screen shot instead to show the price.  I mean $369 for the gun and red dot?  Not bad for a red dot starter gun to see if you like it.  The whole thing is cheaper than just a Trijicon RMR

Quoted:



No mental gymnastics here buddy. I’ve done more dry fire practice than you I’m willing to bet.

And I’ll admit they are better. In theory.

I fully agree with you in regards to lights. There is no justification to not have one.

Quoted:
Yep. It'll keep gaining popularity until it's basically the norm.

Quoted:


This is either a bullshit excuse or your eye doctor is as much of an idiot as Hackethorn.

Quoted:
Red dots and iron sights are for pussies.  I close my eyes and use the Force.
This is just another useless argument where you get to play smarter than the other guy. F all that.  Use whichever you prefer.

Quoted:



Not when you carry aiwb. Even with my 507k it sticks out around .65 of an inch. It’s absolutely noticeable.

Quoted:
It's going to be funny when cheap pistols with cheap red dots become super widespread and people new to guns start with the dot. And never shoot iron sights. It's going to happen.

Quoted:Do you even know who Ken Hackathorn is or his background?  You have zero clue what you are talking about, nor did you (and many of you) actually listen with an open mind or absorb what he said.  Aside from him talking about the negatives (and positives) of people who think the RDS is the wheel. I think he really upset the 50-100rd every few months (if not 2-3x a year) at the indoor range crowd who thinks they are competent crowd.  I do love when Ken picks on the AIWB crowd though, they get their dick all twisted.

Quoted:
Stop being poor. Put a red dot on your pistol.

Quoted:



Your one (long range) mall example combined with a few others here and there don’t outweigh the TONS of other examples to the contrary.

Talk about mental gymnastics.  One notable example in recent history and not there are guys going out to the range practicing 40 yards + with a hand gun. Give me a break.

Quoted:I find it hilarious that people don't think red dots are faster up close. I guess they haven't shot really fast where you can barely see what you're irons are doing in target transitions,  but shooting the same speed and faster with a dot, you can track your dot crazy-better.

Quoted:



Oh look, someone talking even though they don’t know what they’re talking about. Glasses don’tfix astigmatism. Unless they can magically fix the shape of your eyeballs.

Quoted:

Like betamax tapes.
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/Rightt-289.jpg

Quoted:


You should learn by doing.

Shoot a lot.  Run drills.  Take classes from people who have demonstrated high performance.

Compete against others that are better than you. Learn what they do better and emulate it.

Buy a timer.  Train to standards.  Track your own performance.

Build skill.

That's what you should do.

Quoted:All my sunglasses and shooting glasses are prescription and I’ve never had any kind of issue with them in odd positions. Why would I?