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Posted: 3/6/2023 2:11:18 PM EDT
You know how it is: watch one video on YouTube and all of a sudden your feed is full of those videos. Recently I got a flood of police K9 vid's and I watched a bunch. In every case the dog had no reliable release training and the handler had zero control over the dog after it was on the bite. In every video the handler had to go in and physically remove the dog from the bite on actual calls.
Not LE, but I've done more than my share of civilian dog training. I trained and showed a nationally ranked (#2 in breed) dog in AKC competitive obedience. I did some time as a protection dog decoy so I understand that part of the civilian dog training world (it helped me decide I did not want my own semi-autonomous fur missile  ).In the civilian protection training I've been involved in, reliable release from the bite (the "out" or "aus") is considered mandatory. Same in Schutzhund/IPO/PSA. Why don't we see this in police K9's? Not looking to stir shit, just some honest curiosity. Is it lack of training, i.e. am I just watching shitty dogs and handlers on Youtube? Or is this doctrinal? If the latter, what's the rationale? |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 2:24:44 PM EDT
[#1]
Most if not all states require the dog to out on command to be "certified". So they are trained on it, but officers to not want the dog to let go of a perp before they have control of the perp. The only dogs I know of that are not trained to out on command are DOC K9s.
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Posted: 3/6/2023 3:25:45 PM EDT
[#2]
@BLKVooDoo thanks for the response. That's not what I'm seeing at all in these videos. At least not how I'm interpreting it, but again I don't have an LE perspective. These dogs seem to have no out/no outs given. Just one example:
https://youtu.be/GNvp3mxSXrg?t=791 (can't seem to do an embed of this?) "No outs given" the K9 equiv. of "No fucks given" 
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Posted: 3/6/2023 3:28:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @BLKVooDoo thanks for the response. That's not what I'm seeing at all in these videos. At least not how I'm interpreting it, but again I don't have an LE perspective. These dogs seem to have no out/no outs given. Just one example:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvp3mxSXrg"No outs given" the K9 equiv. of "No fucks given" In training, outs are trained and used. In practice? Not so much. As bites are usually well deserved.  Handlers will carry a break stick. Which is used to break up a bite. Dogs have adrenaline too. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 4:17:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Of the agencies I've worked for/around, I've seen it both ways. In one (with a large number of malinois) there was no release command, and the handlers at least claim, to the rest of the agency, that no command exists. Every single bite I've seen was only ended by direct removal by the handler. The argument was that a release command might be used by the suspect to break free, so removal was only ever by hands-on intervention by the handler. IIRC, there was at least one dog shot by a non-handler years back because the officer didn't want to wait for the handler to get it off of him.
At another agency, release commands are considered the norm. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 4:41:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In training, outs are trained and used. In practice? Not so much. As bites are usually well deserved. Quote HistoryQuoted: In training, outs are trained and used. In practice? Not so much. As bites are usually well deserved. Handlers will carry a break stick. Which is used to break up a bite. Dogs have adrenaline too.  It was a top school with a lot of cool dogs. It was a valuable opportunity that carried over in surprising ways when I was actively training and competing in obedience. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 4:46:33 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Of the agencies I've worked for/around, I've seen it both ways. In one (with a large number of malinois) there was no release command, and the handlers at least claim, to the rest of the agency, that no command exists. Every single bite I've seen was only ended by direct removal by the handler. The argument was that a release command might be used by the suspect to break free, so removal was only ever by hands-on intervention by the handler. Quote HistoryQuoted: Of the agencies I've worked for/around, I've seen it both ways. In one (with a large number of malinois) there was no release command, and the handlers at least claim, to the rest of the agency, that no command exists. Every single bite I've seen was only ended by direct removal by the handler. The argument was that a release command might be used by the suspect to break free, so removal was only ever by hands-on intervention by the handler. IIRC, there was at least one dog shot by a non-handler years back because the officer didn't want to wait for the handler to get it off of him.  At another agency, release commands are considered the norm. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 5:16:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that's doctrine (unwritten, no doubt) that's hard to agree with. They are tools to be used in a professional manner, not punitive. It seems unsound from a potential police brutality perspective. And it's hard to understand how it's tactically sound. Once the dog has the suspect and muzzles are pointing it would be much safer for the dog and handler to get the dog out of there without exposing oneself to friendly fire (human adrenaline). Can't agree with that, either. I've experienced the break stick many times when I was a decoy. Having to do that was not considered "trained" and indicative of questionable canine temperament for the job. Dogs which continually required the break stick were eventually washed out of training. Dogs that had to be continually pulled or choked off the sleeve were washed out. And just to be clear this was protection training, not sports dog Schutz/PSA/etc. I guess the standards I was exposed to were different It was a top school with a lot of cool dogs. It was a valuable opportunity that carried over in surprising ways when I was actively training and competing in obedience.Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In training, outs are trained and used. In practice? Not so much. As bites are usually well deserved. Handlers will carry a break stick. Which is used to break up a bite. Dogs have adrenaline too. It was a top school with a lot of cool dogs. It was a valuable opportunity that carried over in surprising ways when I was actively training and competing in obedience.Yeah I do not disagree with you. Handlers tend to get lazy keeping the training up. And there is a lot of bad handlers out there. Protection dogs are generally trained to a much higher standard than Police K9s. Usually takes about 13-15 weeks to get a dog/handler team up to certification levels. Protections dogs can take over a year and consistent training is usually never done. One of the reason I have been asked to start breeding British Black Labs as well is because they tend to not bite and hold on like Mals and GSDs. Mals and GSDs are becoming a big liability to some departments. |
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Posted: 3/6/2023 5:45:53 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:One of the reason I have been asked to start breeding British Black Labs as well is because they tend to not bite and hold on like Mals and GSDs. Mals and GSDs are becoming a big liability to some departments. As for Mal's and GSD's holding on, never had that problem with the ones I had the opportunity to work with. Nor with the Dobie's (my favorite protection dog breed for a lot of reasons). But the Pit's and the Rottie's were scary. Only time I ever got bit (my fault, of course, it's always the decoy's fault) was a Pit. But he was a really good dog with a really good out and I let my guard, and arm, down like an idiot. I only had on a sleeve and scratch vest and he went right over the sleeve and got me on the left breast right through the scratch vest. I didn't lose any parts but the photos were hilarious  |
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Posted: 3/17/2023 12:17:04 PM EDT
[#9]
Current handler here:
From my experience, it takes a lot of training and consistency to have a reliable verbal release on a live bite. Dogs know the difference between sleeves, bite suits, hidden sleeves, and actual people. They also know the difference between training and live deployments. For the record, I've had a successful verbal release on a subject. Your dog can ace the verbal release / recall actions in training but a real life deployment is a different category of excitement, stress, and environment. I would say that is true in the majority of dogs trained to bite people. Training definitely helps and I'd say most handlers don't do enough training to help themselves be successful. I have a Belgian Malinois. He has live bites where the subject didn't fight back and it resulted in 4 "neat" puncture wounds with minimal tearing. He also has bites where the subject fought with him / tried to pry him off causing a lot of damage. Verbal releases can be very difficult with uncooperative individuals, another thing we can train on but real life scenarios make it much more dynamic. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 9:07:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Current handler here: Quote HistoryQuoted: Current handler here: From my experience, it takes a lot of training and consistency to have a reliable verbal release on a live bite. Dogs know the difference between sleeves, bite suits, hidden sleeves, and actual people. They also know the difference between training and live deployments. For the record, I've had a successful verbal release on a subject. Your dog can ace the verbal release / recall actions in training but a real life deployment is a different category of excitement, stress, and environment. I would say that is true in the majority of dogs trained to bite people. Training definitely helps and I'd say most handlers don't do enough training to help themselves be successful. Verbal releases can be very difficult with uncooperative individuals, another thing we can train on but real life scenarios make it much more dynamic. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 9:24:36 AM EDT
[#11]
I never taught our gsd the command, but if she’s acting stupid saying out or aus immediately stops the action. Not screaming either, just saying it and she immediately complies. It’s trippy
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Posted: 3/18/2023 12:31:53 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never taught our gsd the command, but if she’s acting stupid saying out or aus immediately stops the action. Not screaming either, just saying it and she immediately complies. It’s trippy During bite work? |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 1:00:21 PM EDT
[#13]
Few added things.
Big difference between sport biting and street biting. I have seen police dogs that were way too sporty fail on the street when they are actually fought and no equipment is involved. some are too equipment gay. Equipment ques and expectations become conditioned responses. It gets more and more risky for decoys (very good decoys are needed) with less equipment ( hidden sleeves, paper bites, silicon “flesh” or pig meat etc). Building tough no fail dogs means building fight drive. My dogs would release on command for certification on none fighting decoys. But not after much resistance. As others said, dog is not released from suspect till cuffs are on. I feel an ordered recall or guard is more important than the verbal out. And the DOC dogs in my state do the same cert as the street dogs. Many dogs will bite a person out of defense to get away. Working dogs are taught to bite and hold through play, tug and transferring that object to a person like a sleeve etc. It is not natural for a dog to want to fight a human untrained. Those are genetic freaks and dangerous for everyone including handlers. What you are doing is training someone who is competitive by nature to become an MMA fighter. Social and easy going till the bell rings. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 2:43:00 PM EDT
[#14]
You might have missed where I said I had been working as a decoy, Mike, but I do appreciate the response, and I'm sure it helped for those without any background.
To summarize what I'm taking away from this thread: 1. It's doctrine. The dog is not off until the cuffs are on. So no need for an out. I fail to appreciate the tactical value of this, but I won't belabor the point as developing police tactics is way outside my lane. 2. Training is hard (for both dog and handler). Nobody wants to work that hard to perfect an out for the street and it's also difficult to find a dog of the caliber necessary. Combined with the doctrinal aspect, why bother? So I think I've got my answer. We all know work is different than sport. Even so, my initial viewpoint was formed by being associated with a training outfit that was turning out serious civilian dogs, not sport dogs and not police dogs. It is a lifestyle for these folks and the good dogs are very good indeed. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 3:15:13 PM EDT
[#15]
No sir I didn't miss it that you decoy and no offense, but there are definitely differences in decoys and how that work is done. Of course we do not know each other nor have trained together so we are left to speculate.
I see those body cam videos too and cringe at the shitty dog work being done in many places. It is too bad and generally the result of bad training of both dogs and handlers. In most cases, the handlers and trainers only know what they know and either do not seek out knowledge and experience, or are not allowed. I further agree with a post about these reckless bites that endanger dogs and cops. When searching or trailing for people you get indications long before contact of his location. The dog is a locating tool first and there is a time to transition to traditional tactics when suspects are in positions of advantage. My five dog unit in a city of 250k had under 20 bites in my last 10 years with many many locates and arrests. A nearby agency had one handler with over 30 in five years. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 4:23:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Thanks, Mike!
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Posted: 3/18/2023 4:37:05 PM EDT
[#17]
All the ones we worked were trained to release on command. In general the "ause" (sounds like owse)
Just means "leave it" or " drop it" They generally (except in handler protection mode) only attacked on command "foss" |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 5:48:10 PM EDT
[#18]
The commands are German words. "Aus" (out), "voraus" (go) and so on. You can google a list. Some of the commands are made-up words (words that have no meaning in any languages) so you don't get an accidental bite. "Fass" or "Faa" is one of them.
The German commands have become so well known that many folks train in other languages. French, Czech and Dutch are all popular. You don't want an accidental bite, and you don't want other people to be easily able to command your dog. |
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Posted: 3/18/2023 6:40:44 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The commands are German words. "Aus" (out), "voraus" (go) and so on. You can google a list. Some of the commands are made-up words (words that have no meaning in any languages) so you don't get an accidental bite. "Fass" or "Faa" is one of them. The German commands have become so well known that many folks train in other languages. French, Czech and Dutch are all popular. You don't want an accidental bite, and you don't want other people to be easily able to command your dog. Belgian and French are becoming rather popular. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 6:06:54 AM EDT
[#20]
I never verbal out my dog on a live street bite. IMO it’s just safer all around to choke him off. Have constant control of him.
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Posted: 3/22/2023 6:09:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Because dogs are dogs. And when you train them to fuck shit up they start to like fucking shit up.
I watched a k9 tear into the handlers 10yo niece one time. Fucked her up good. eta. She was 6 and it got her mom during the incident also |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 10:13:09 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never verbal out my dog on a live street bite. IMO it’s just safer all around to choke him off. Have constant control of him. Quote HistoryQuoted: I never verbal out my dog on a live street bite. IMO it’s just safer all around to choke him off. Have constant control of him. Quoted: Because dogs are dogs. And when you train them to fuck shit up they start to like fucking shit up. I watched a k9 tear into the handlers 10yo niece one time. Fucked her up good. eta. She was 6 and it got her mom during the incident also This is why I ultimately backed away from protection stuff myself. I realized that I would only be satisfied with a $40K high end civilian dog and not some training mill dog for $10K, not including all the time and $$$ I'd have to put in maintaining both my proficiency and the dog's proficiency. And I was not prepared for the lifestyle changes to safely live with and handle even the $40K dog. Because you are right when you say "dogs are dogs" but maybe not exactly the way you put it. Even the best bred, most highly trained, best handled dogs still have a level of autonomy that firearms do not. One canine mistake, even an honest one, and that might be $40K+ down the drain and maybe with a big lawsuit as a cherry on top, not to mention the guilt. Before folks start chiming in with "My patrol K9 lives with me and my entire family no problem" stories, certainly there is a lot more good than bad out there. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 10:23:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I do not disagree with you. Handlers tend to get lazy keeping the training up. And there is a lot of bad handlers out there. Protection dogs are generally trained to a much higher standard than Police K9s. Usually takes about 13-15 weeks to get a dog/handler team up to certification levels. Protections dogs can take over a year and consistent training is usually never done. One of the reason I have been asked to start breeding British Black Labs as well is because they tend to not bite and hold on like Mals and GSDs. Mals and GSDs are becoming a big liability to some departments. LE K9s don’t get follow-on training like civilian dogs because civilian dogs aren’t really working. A K9 is overworked with minimal breaks. It’s the same reason the US Army lacks basic discipline after the GWOT. Too much deployed time, working only one skill set. Also, you are comparing your dog’s behavior in controlled, scheduled training situations to chaotic adrenalized field calls. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 10:57:14 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LE K9s don’t get follow-on training like civilian dogs because civilian dogs aren’t really working. A K9 is overworked with minimal breaks. It’s the same reason the US Army lacks basic discipline after the GWOT. Too much deployed time, working only one skill set. Also, you are comparing your dog’s behavior in controlled, scheduled training situations to chaotic adrenalized field calls. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah I do not disagree with you. Handlers tend to get lazy keeping the training up. And there is a lot of bad handlers out there. Protection dogs are generally trained to a much higher standard than Police K9s. Usually takes about 13-15 weeks to get a dog/handler team up to certification levels. Protections dogs can take over a year and consistent training is usually never done. One of the reason I have been asked to start breeding British Black Labs as well is because they tend to not bite and hold on like Mals and GSDs. Mals and GSDs are becoming a big liability to some departments. LE K9s don’t get follow-on training like civilian dogs because civilian dogs aren’t really working. A K9 is overworked with minimal breaks. It’s the same reason the US Army lacks basic discipline after the GWOT. Too much deployed time, working only one skill set. Also, you are comparing your dog’s behavior in controlled, scheduled training situations to chaotic adrenalized field calls. >LE K9s don’t get follow-on training That is largely dependent on a lot of things. Some states require a certain amount of continuous training hours per year. Some departments, if they can afford it have internal training, and dogs are worked in a training setting weekly. One in particular I know of, requires 4 hours of ongoing training per week. OP is the one who is trying to compare his experience with sport dogs vs. Working. Which is apples to oranges. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 11:19:08 AM EDT
[#25]
Nearly all in my state train one shift per week. Wednesday tends to be the overlap for those that work the front and back end of the week. Of course they are subject to calls where dogs are needed.
Typically start with detection work- vehicles, area and interiors (drugs/explosives). Tactical movement, obedience, article/evidence searches, building, industrial yard and neighborhood searches, trailing etc. all can be mixed with bites, muzzle fighting and no bite scenarios. Scenarios that challenge the handler’s decision making as much as exposing and building the dog are done. These are often overlooked by some which is why you get these “never should have sent the dog” reports. Just because the dog can doesn’t mean you should. Remember that there are close to 18000 agencies out there. There was a time that as fee as 350 cops got you in the top couple hundred. So many are what I called “we have agencies”. We have K9 and SWAT etc but only have 30 guys and not the time or budget to support them. But sounds good to the community. My old outfit was supposedly the first in the state to have dogs in 1974. The first handler later was chief. K9s have always been a big part of the agency and well supported. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 11:30:59 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wrong. That's indicative of poor training and/or poor canine temperament for the job. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Because dogs are dogs. And when you train them to fuck shit up they start to like fucking shit up. Ditto. If they don't obey commands, they are a liability and should not be used. If my dog mauls someone for no reason, it gets put down. If a "police dog" mauls someone despite commands to cease, it's "just a doing being a dog" and dismissed as nothing. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 12:23:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:OP is the one who is trying to compare his experience with sport dogs vs. Working. Which is apples to oranges. Quote HistoryQuoted:OP is the one who is trying to compare his experience with sport dogs vs. Working. Which is apples to oranges. In the civilian protection training I've been involved in, reliable release from the bite (the "out" or "aus") is considered mandatory. Same in Schutzhund/IPO/PSA. Why don't we see this in police K9's? Not looking to stir shit, just some honest curiosity. Is it lack of training, i.e. am I just watching shitty dogs and handlers on Youtube? Or is this doctrinal? If the latter, what's the rationale? The answer I've taken away from this discussion is that it's primarily doctrinal, but in some cases also a lack of training. Right or wrong there's also a feeling that some doctrine is driven by a desire to get by with less training and less dog. The only rationale given is that it's better to pull the dog off because this is more secure. Again, I can appreciate how going from a bite hold to human hands-on is more secure but it would seem to be easier to command the dog than have to rip/choke it off. And by not having the command available and reliable, one often puts oneself in front of a bunch of blue gun muzzles. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 12:28:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: >LE K9s don’t get follow-on training That is largely dependent on a lot of things. Some states require a certain amount of continuous training hours per year. Some departments, if they can afford it have internal training, and dogs are worked in a training setting weekly. One in particular I know of, requires 4 hours of ongoing training per week. OP is the one who is trying to compare his experience with sport dogs vs. Working. Which is apples to oranges. Everywhere has training minimums. That’s what lots of places do, because they are so busy working non-stop shifts and call outs. Then you get a military dog or small agency dog and they get lots of training time. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 12:35:44 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am definitely NOT doing this. From my OP: I'm recognizing there is a difference and asking the why of it. The answer I've taken away from this discussion is that it's primarily doctrinal, but in some cases also a lack of training. Right or wrong there's also a feeling that some doctrine is driven by a desire to get by with less training and less dog. The only rationale given is that it's better to pull the dog off because this is more secure. Again, I can appreciate how going from a bite hold to human hands-on is more secure but it would seem to be easier to command the dog than have to rip/choke it off. And by not having the command available and reliable, one often puts oneself in front of a bunch of blue gun muzzles. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:OP is the one who is trying to compare his experience with sport dogs vs. Working. Which is apples to oranges. In the civilian protection training I've been involved in, reliable release from the bite (the "out" or "aus") is considered mandatory. Same in Schutzhund/IPO/PSA. Why don't we see this in police K9's? Not looking to stir shit, just some honest curiosity. Is it lack of training, i.e. am I just watching shitty dogs and handlers on Youtube? Or is this doctrinal? If the latter, what's the rationale? The answer I've taken away from this discussion is that it's primarily doctrinal, but in some cases also a lack of training. Right or wrong there's also a feeling that some doctrine is driven by a desire to get by with less training and less dog. The only rationale given is that it's better to pull the dog off because this is more secure. Again, I can appreciate how going from a bite hold to human hands-on is more secure but it would seem to be easier to command the dog than have to rip/choke it off. And by not having the command available and reliable, one often puts oneself in front of a bunch of blue gun muzzles. There are a lot of factors in play. You can have a nationally recognized K9 that trains daily by the best trainers, and has a consistent handler, still get a adrenaline and dopamine rush in a real world situation. Even trying to train in every imaginable scenario, the real world will consistently throw a curve ball. Dogs are not machines. They do not have an off switch that will out with 100% reliability. Lack of training or doctrine plays no part of it. Physiology had more to do with it |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 12:38:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Often that command is close hold and variable between dogs.
A dog I am exposed to releases on a totally abstract word. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 1:32:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Police dog cert requires a verbal out from at least 10’ away in NPCA. A standing decoy on a grassy field. Sport biting.
We always bought 400 plus KNPV dogs. My first was 433. We had a 440 (perfect) that was one of twenty invited to Dutch Nationals before we bought him. KNPV dogs unlike most sport dogs are breed for strength, bite pressure, toughness, resilience and aggression. But start to fight them or after an hour search in prey drive for the final reward (bite) and the sportiness declines. When the dog learns that people will try to hurt them the games changes. My post retirement job was training dogs and handler for the prisons. We got green dogs, dogs other agencies couldn’t handle and some special purchases. We bought some finished French ring dogs that were unbelievable. But I could make most dogs fail from a bite without hurting them. Sport dogs need to be feraled up a bit for serious work. By the way, I trained a nice Mal that was dual certified on patrol and dope through NPCA but my daughter fell in love with him and worked nights. Gave him to her and never asked that dog to verbal out again in training. She used to run and needed a good dog. Told her he was expendable. Leave the dog on the bite and get away. If he dies there so be it. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 4:55:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are a lot of factors in play. You can have a nationally recognized K9 that trains daily by the best trainers, and has a consistent handler, still get a adrenaline and dopamine rush in a real world situation. Even trying to train in every imaginable scenario, the real world will consistently throw a curve ball. Dogs are not machines. They do not have an off switch that will out with 100% reliability. Lack of training or doctrine plays no part of it. Physiology had more to do with it the incident I named above demonstrates this. A veteran dog and team. His niece missed the school bus. He volunteered to take her to school. He pulls up in cruiser with dog in back. The mother of girl instinctively immediately opens the cruiser door. I do not know if she opened the front or back but The dogs can open the doors themselves if they perceive a threat. The dog reacts to the perceived threat. Before the incident is over the girl, mom and handler all received stitches. Clearly mistakes were made. But there isn't a perfect on off switch. Tons of documented slow releases of seasoned teams. Eta. Also Pretty sure most k9 bites result in law suits. I know more than a couple have come through my local area. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 5:42:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Basically what I meant when I said dogs are dogs. the incident I named above demonstrates this. A veteran dog and team. His niece missed the school bus. He volunteered to take her to school. He pulls up in cruiser with dog in back. The mother of girl instinctively immediately opens the cruiser door. I do not know if she opened the front or back but The dogs can open the doors themselves if they perceive a threat. The dog reacts to the perceived threat. Before the incident is over the girl, mom and handler all received stitches. Clearly mistakes were made. But there isn't a perfect on off switch. Tons of documented slow releases of seasoned teams. Eta. Also Pretty sure most k9 bites result in law suits. I know more than a couple have come through my local area. Dogs can’t pop themselves from cars. Handler controls the door popper. If someone’s jerry rigged their car up to allow that, they aren’t very bright. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 6:51:04 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dogs can't pop themselves from cars. Handler controls the door popper. If someone's jerry rigged their car up to allow that, they aren't very bright. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 6:57:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've donated dozens of cooling systems and nose print scanners that allow the dog to pop the doors. Can you link to the nose print scanner. I’ve never heard of it or seen one. Still doesn’t change my opinion that it’s a terrible idea. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 7:17:43 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you link to the nose print scanner. I've never heard of it or seen one. Still doesn't change my opinion that it's a terrible idea. i would not be surprised if they have been since removed due to liability. I will find out. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 7:21:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was trying to find it for an min and cannot do so. This was circa 2005-2010 when the above incident happened. I know for a fact that dog in that cruiser could pop the door without handler assistance incase they were incapacitated. They were programmed to the individual dog. My employer donated ~$100Gs to the local k9 which at the time was one of the biggest in the state. The money went to the cooling and popper system. I had my hands on that system numerous times over those years. i would not be surprised if they have been since removed due to liability. I will find out. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Can you link to the nose print scanner. I've never heard of it or seen one. Still doesn't change my opinion that it's a terrible idea. i would not be surprised if they have been since removed due to liability. I will find out. I know of remote opening systems for officers to open doors if they are in a struggle. If the dog could open it, that is a huge liability. I have never seen nor heard of them. I doubt they exist. Huge liability. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 7:23:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was trying to find it for an min and cannot do so. This was circa 2005-2010 when the above incident happened. I know for a fact that dog in that cruiser could pop the door without handler assistance incase they were incapacitated. They were programmed to the individual dog. My employer donated ~$100Gs to the local k9 which at the time was one of the biggest in the state. The money went to the cooling and popper system. I had my hands on that system numerous times over those years. i would not be surprised if they have been since removed due to liability. I will find out. Cool thanks. I’d be interested to read up on the system. Every system currently on the market that I’m familiar with is handler dependent. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 7:24:19 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I know of remote opening systems for officers to open doors if they are in a struggle. If the dog could open it, that is a huge liability. I have never seen nor heard of them. I doubt they exist. Huge liability. eta: def a huge liability. The dogs in general seem to be. Numerous suits have come from them. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 7:38:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Temperature, fob and internal nose scanner all activated the popper. eta: def a huge liability. The dogs in general seem to be. Numerous suits have come from them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I know of remote opening systems for officers to open doors if they are in a struggle. If the dog could open it, that is a huge liability. I have never seen nor heard of them. I doubt they exist. Huge liability. eta: def a huge liability. The dogs in general seem to be. Numerous suits have come from them. I have testified in a lot of civil lawsuits on dog bites as an expert witness. There is not as many as you think. And there is usually never a payout or large payout unless it was an innocent bystander that was bitten. As far as a squad door opener that the dog can control sound like a huge liability. I go to 4-5 industry trade shows every year, and I have never seen or heard of them. Handler opening ones yes. I would never install a system the dog can control in a car. That sounds like the worst idea ever. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 8:01:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have testified in a lot of civil lawsuits on dog bites as an expert witness. There is not as many as you think. And there is usually never a payout or large payout unless it was an innocent bystander that was bitten. As far as a squad door opener that the dog can control sound like a huge liability. I go to 4-5 industry trade shows every year, and I have never seen or heard of them. Handler opening ones yes. I would never install a system the dog can control in a car. That sounds like the worst idea ever. |
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Posted: 3/22/2023 8:08:09 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I dunno??? They've had a couple lawsuits over the past couple of years. Specifically involving the dogs. I'm not sure of the outcomes. I assumed most big city dept, are hit with them frequently. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I have testified in a lot of civil lawsuits on dog bites as an expert witness. There is not as many as you think. And there is usually never a payout or large payout unless it was an innocent bystander that was bitten. As far as a squad door opener that the dog can control sound like a huge liability. I go to 4-5 industry trade shows every year, and I have never seen or heard of them. Handler opening ones yes. I would never install a system the dog can control in a car. That sounds like the worst idea ever. I do know there are nose scanners, and they are used like fingerprint scanners to identify lost dogs. |
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