I currently own a baseball facility that caters to high end athletes. We have skill coaches (hitting, throwing, defense, etc) as well strength/conditioning coaches. The skill and strength programs are highly integrated and there is constant communication between coaches. Every athlete is different, so the movement demands of the skill and the individual athlete's deficiencies must be addressed specifically by both skill and strength coaches.

I bring this up because I am a beginner in the gun world. I am working my way up in taking more and more advanced classes. This weekend I took a tactical rifle class that had me shooting while moving for the first time. I consider myself a good athlete, I played professional baseball, and relatively young. But this class whooped my ass. Being able to walk smoothly while staying on target and shooting accurately was a challenge. Even being able to hold the rifle up and on target while standing still for extended periods of time was difficult. Needless to say, my workouts are not built to help me progress in my hobby (shooting). It got me thinking that there must be other people out there that need some guidance and coaching on the fitness side to address the specific needs of their hobby. There are just some things that a skill coach (shooting instructor) will never be able to fix if your body physically cannot move in a certain way.

So, my question is, would you go to a gym that had coaches that take you through a full movement assessment and build a custom program to address the specific demands your hobby (jujitsu, shooting, hunting, ect.)? The way it works with our baseball guys is they get assessed, they have a custom monthly program built, come in 2-3x/week in a semi private environment (4-8 athletes/coach), then get periodic reassessments to track progress. Some athletes also prefer one-on-one coaching so we also provide that.

I already have the facility and equipment so that is not a concern. Thoughts?

I owned a business for thirty years. Gun guy, hunter and self defense oriented.
1) I'd be hard pressed to drive by multiple gyms to get to yours
2) The clients you describe are NOT centrally located with respect to any single location
3) There are MANY MANY classes/schools/ranges that already offer instruction albeit not exactly what your describing.

Not being negative but just my thoughts.

That sounds fantastic, and I wish that was an option for me both locally and economically. I probably could not afford it but would greatly benefit.

Seems like the kind of clientele a MMA/BJJ gym would draw.
So I'd think the type of business exists, it's just not marketed that way.

Also, GoRuck targets that market, but I don't know if they have, or necessarily need, gyms.

At the end of the day, the gym provides the equipment, you have to have your own program, or a trainer that can work on your goals.

You have to look at your market.

I use a military gym, retired but still get after it and they don’t frown on gun centric training. The YMCA would. Most XFit gyms don’t care about gun training either.

Making a gym gun fitness training friendly is a good idea if your marketing isn’t also to soccer moms doing yoga.

I got chuckles here for posting this but it works.


Don’t try to market a gym solely to the gun crowd but offer specific training classes like XFit that cater to the crowd. PewBa added to Zumba. LOL

Probably not enough clientele to make it worth it.

Anyone that wants to train specifically for something like shooting and moving is probably doing sprint training along with range work and classes.

No.

Hunters don't exactly shoot high volumes, IME.  They probably don't need any help.

3 gun guys, maybe.  But I bet you ain't cheap, so is the juice worth the squeeze?  

Closest I can think of to what you describe might be GoRuck events, in terms of "tactical" strength training.

https://mtntactical.com/

Do you want people that hate guns to not come to your gym?  I would think that you would want to appeal to as many people as possible, rather than certain groups.

I guess I didn't describe my vision very well. My gym is 100% private, 100% baseball players. No drop in classes, nobody doing their own program. Everybody in there is on a custom monthly program put together by one of our trainers that addresses their specific needs and the demands of their position. So when there are 8 athletes in the gym, each one is doing their own personal program while two coaches roam/observe and help when needed. So this is very different than the 24 Hour Fitness you drive by everyday.

Classes/schools/ranges are very different than what I am describing. To compare it to baseball, shooting or say BJJ are skills like hitting or throwing a baseball is a skill. If you want to get better at those skills, building a stronger level of fitness is only going to accelerate your progress. You need the strength and mobility to accomplish your tasks faster, more acculturate, more consistent. If I am 45 years old and lack the strength to get into a kneeling position to fire then quickly stand, get back on target, and fire again then a gun instructor can't help me. I need a strength coach/program that understands that I had acl surgery a few years back and I need to focus more on strengthening my posterior chain so that I can continue to progress in my shooting skill set.

We are a fully private gym, right now there are only baseball players in there, so no soccer moms working out, haha. This is not going to be the main revenue source for the gym, the baseball side already takes care of that. This would just be a fun add on. The gym is empty in the early mornings and during the day while the kids (baseball players) are in school. So if we opened up a couple hours for "combat" performance it would only be like minded people in there. This would also not be drop in classes like crossfit or zumba or orange theory. It would be custom programming for each individual person with semi private coaching. So maybe 4 guys working out from 6-7 am, each guy has their own program and a coach is roaming, making sure you are doing movements correctly and helping when needed.

I am talking about something much more comprehensive and specific than just adding some cardio or sprinting. For instance, I spoke with one of my strength coaches about the fact that it was difficult for me to walk smoothly while staying on target and shooting accurately. I showed him a video of me doing the drill and said I needed more adductor and glute med activation so he added exercises that work those muscle groups to my program so I can improve my ability to shoot on the move. A gun instructor can’t fix this in a 3 hour class.

I don't need a huge clientele, I am just thinking this could be a cool add on to the strength and conditioning services we provide for our baseball players. Even if we just got 4-5 clients, it would be worthwhile for one of my trainers to come in early.

So expanding your private clientele.

Yes it could work but I don’t know of a certification program that caters to the tactical crowd. Most of us have military experience and we do what is taught in our specific PT or like me, we innovate.

Do you have the potential for customers?  Have you tossed around the idea with other pro trainers?

If you build it, they will come. (You brought up baseball). But only if they are in your community and see the need.

Try marketing it as defensive training fitness.

How specific can the training be?  Cold weapons or a weighted XFit stick like I am doing in my video?

I think hunters would be a great candidate for this type of training, not necessarily for the shooting part but for the hiking for miles up and down heavily wooded mountains. And then the fitness level necessary to pack out an animal is insane. I think the hunting experience would be much more enjoyable if guys had the physical foundation to do these things without having to stop every 20 yards because they were out of shape and out of breath. I understand that you can just work out on your own but I am hoping there is a market (even a very small market) that wants this level of coaching and specificity in their workouts.

We are already a fully private gym with only baseball players. The gym is fully self sustained by the baseball training. This would just be an add on because I personally would benefit from it I think others would too. We would train the gun guys/bjj/hunters in the morning or midday (when the baseball players are in school) and they would be the only people in the gym at the time. Plus, honestly, nobody would even know what they were training, from the outside it would just look like a normal strength and conditioning workout.

You have a unique situation in that you already have the staff and the facilities. Adding more layers to it is probably a good choice if you can add people to training list.

If someone without either of those things came in with the same question though, I would ask them if they thought it would have any kind of ROI....the answer would probably be no.

To take it even further though, maybe you could layer it for more task specific training. Like the Run and Gun training (just use the word tactical, someone will buy it), plus stuff like climbing, combat (hand to hand guys), or cycling/hiking. Just sport specific strength templates that help address weak points but won't interfere with their main training.

Those are great questions. I would love to know the level of fitness you guys get in the military. Any trainer can make you tired/puke/sweat your ass off but did that really make you a better soldier? From an outside perspective, it seems like a lot of military PT is much more general fitness as apposed to specific to the individual's needs.

Do I have potential for customers? That is kind of why I wanted to ask here if people in this world would be interested in this type of thing. I am in a big hunting state and in a very affluent area so I think that there is certainly a market there. The tactical and combat sports may be a little tougher market to tap.

I image we could make it pretty damn specific using weighted vests, loaded rucks, weighted training rifles with optics, haha!

https://m.facebook.com/paintballwolf/videos/198701831432303/?extid=CL-UNK-UNK-UNK-AN_GK0T-GK1C&ref=sharing

I think they changed some of the standards not that long ago to include things like drags and deadlifts.

Read through Tactical Barbell, it was written by a former military guy that shifted into law enforcement, and it's designed to be strength training as a supplement to job specific training for guys in the military, law/fire, EMS, etc.

They do a lot of low rep work based off of percentages, but there's multiple templates for whatever goal and other level of training you have.

Haha, I love it!

Awesome, that is perfect and would be a great way for my strength guys to get a better grasp on the demands of this population.

Army PT and testing is functional. Dragging dummies, carrying and tossing ammo cans, core strength, dead lifting etc and running are the basics.

The basics for the USAF is nothing but do not fail your test. It is a joke. I do Army types of PT.

It needs refinement for some MOS/AFSCs but most are never going to use it.

I am more combat fit as a retiree than I ever was while active duty but I blame that on Cola Warrior and the current world climate making it a need.

OP also needs to consider any downsides.

Do you live in a gun friendly state?

Could advertising tactical activities / training negatively effect the baseball side of the business?

I am in Colorado so not the most gun friendly state.

That is a great point, I am in a very very conservative suburb so I should be ok for the most part but that is definitely something to consider.

I think it's very niche and probably wouldn't be ideal in most areas.

My advice would be to collect some regional specific data. You could do this via any of those "extreme hunter challenge", "warrior sprint", "sheepdog dash" type things, along with more gun classes/matches, and maybe some 3D archery shoots. You could definitely gauge interest there to see if it's feasible or not.

IMHO, your biggest hurdle is going to be credibility.

I just wouldn't pay for a class from Greg Maddux called "How to Drive a Formula 1 Car" kind of deal.

He has the facility and staff.
As long as he doesn't go all "Extreme Shock" with his marketing keeps it suburban dad friendly I don't see too much downside.
He may have mentioned but if he's involved in any of the local gun games he could work it word of mouth and super tight focused marketing, maybe a sponsorship and see how it goes.
I think he's in an ideal position to test the water.

Honestly?  Nope.  

You're targeting a niche market within a niche market within another niche market.  

The majority of hunters won't be interested.  Some perhaps mildly interested, but not enough to pay recurring fees. Small part who are interested,  but don't live within a reasonable distance.

Similarly, most gun owners rarely shoot.  Some shoot often.  Smaller subset compete at local matches every once in a while for fun. Even smaller subset compete at a high enough level to warrant strength/conditioning training.  Even smaller group who live within a reasonable distance.


You already have a location so it may not hurt to give it a whirl.  I just wouldn't expect to light the world afire with big revenues.

Hey OP, I’m working my way into an adjacent field and here are my thoughts but first a few questions.

This is a long post, but I don’t really know how to convey it any more succinctly. I’ll try to hit on the high parts.

What kind of firearms trainers/ranges are in your area? You mention you are taking classes, but not if they are local, etc. Gun guys can be terrible athletes if they don’t come from some kind of combat sports background or see a need for it (I’ve got a gun why do I need to know how to fight?). High country hunters (Cameron Hanes types) generally have money and the desire to be in good shape to prep for the hike in hike out style of hunting.

What kind of MMA/BJJ gyms are local to you? If not, start to look for a few S/C coaches with a high level wrestling, boxing, BJJ, mma background. Try to convert some of your space into a combat sports focused area, have heavy bags, Muay Thai pads, Wrestling mats. Make a big deal about it locally and draw in prospective clients. Because you would be taking a risk financially work out a deal where class happens when the gym is otherwise closed, let your coaches keep a fair amount of their earnings, but have the goal of integrating everything under one roof at a future date. My personal preference would be to skip traditional martial arts (Aikido and Korean versions like Hapkido, Karate, Kung Fu, etc), Krav Maga, Systema etc because of the connotation from people in the know (pretty high likelihood that it’ll be junk training at best out straight up cult shit at worst, with the extremely rare squared away guy being a once in a lifetime kind of occurrence-I literally can name only a handful of good Krav instructors period)

If you have combat sports gyms near you, but the coaches aren’t S/C coaches, you might could offer to help train and certify them if they would be willing to teach (S/C foot combat sports athletes) classes for you a few times weekly for a set period of time at an agreed upon wage. You just need to get into those gyms (train yourself?) and start building those relationships.

Would your current coaches have high level experience with either of those? They’ll have friends in the field that they can use to help market. And you can grow your business without having to hire anyone new. Wrestling coaches would probably be likely depending on the area you are in.

Are you near a major military base, particularly one home to an infantry, airborne, SF division? Military discounts, veteran hiring opportunities, etc could be huge. Combat arms guys tend to be athletic and having an S/C program set up in partnership with a local base, especially if veterans are involved could be a really good thing for all involved.

There is a small community of gun+combat sports guys doing both. They also are generally focused on physical fitness, lifting, cardio training (check out Craig Douglas, Larry Lindenman (sp?), Cecil Burch, Paul Sharp, Chris Frye, Mike Brown, Shawn Lupka, etc for guys who are combining the two fields.) Having promoted for some of those guys in the past, filling the classes isn’t easy, but if you are in an area where they don’t usually frequent, and you have access to mat space and a gun range, you could host their classes and guests that are local can find you through the classes, especially if you made it an all-in-one type of experience with partnerships with the local range as well as combat sports classes and personal training focused around that niche.

I think it all depends on how big you want to make this. If you are reasonably secure financially, and can afford to take it slow, just invite friends to train and let them be free advertising. Though I think to have value you absolutely must have coaches with BOTH an S/C background and a combat sports/shooting/military combat arms background (as in one guy having experience in both fields simultaneously)

Check your AO and see if there are any Strong First Kettlebell instructors (or Barbell/body weight coaches from Strong First). There is a lot of overlap between the two. Though they can swing towards the Russian systema stuff because of the kettlebell connection with the Russian military (see my previous statement on why that’s bad). But their standards to be a coach are pretty intense so you know you are looking at someone with a decent bit of skill (unlike what can happen with Cross Fit instructor certs some of the time.)

The trick is floating out the overhead of an experienced coach or two while you build your student base. I’ve trained at BJJ gyms that literally rented space in weight gyms for a few hundred a month while we got classes going with a small group of people paying $50-75/mo. It’s barely breaking even at the very beginning but after a while you’ll have enough to cover the costs and they start to take advantage of your other services as well, but have it all laid out in the beginning with that in mind. If you want to bring in a coach then that’s a lot harder because you’ll have to be able to pay him while the classes are small.

I hope this at least gives you something to think about.

**about me** I’m currently working towards my SFG1 certification with Strong First and have over 6 years in BJJ and am currently a Purple belt. I’m living in Bangkok Thailand and will be taking advantage of my location by training Muay Thai once I finish my certification. In the States I trained with Craig Douglas numerous times among several other firearms instructors and I really see the value in combining shooting, fighting, and fitness. I’d like to be able to combine these life experiences and coach some of this stuff in the future. I’m currently teaching a combination Judo/BJJ class free of charge to local and expat teachers and missionaries with a Judo Black belt. I’m passionate about what you are talking about and I will share what little experience I have currently if you have any questions.

In the past I have taught martial arts, been a personal trainer, and been a firearms instructor.

They were all part time gigs. If I was really pushing it I could have made any of them full time but the money just isn't there. I would not have wanted to combine all three. Just think of a ven diagram. You could do all right focusing on one but the area that all 3 intersect is smaller than a original circle.

Just imagine going to a uspsa or 3 gun competition. Get all the competitors to raise their hand if they have a trainer, practice martial arts, or seeks out professional firearm instruction on a regular based(not once or twice a year). If you add them all together you might get somewhere.

Good luck.

Without a range, no. If you put a range along with a gym that could access it by walking/running, then I'd sign up.

But what you're describing I don't think you'd get enough people, and you'd have to also pay a bunch of high dollar coaches. The top guys use their own specialized coaches already anyhow and go to gyms close to them. There are also already a lot of MMA gyms out there, so maybe if you changed the concept a little into something like a "self defense" gym it might be successful.

Sounds like a Pat McNamara bachelor party! Or does he already host classes like this?

I disagree with a lot of the posts here and think you could develop a market for this, but not maybe the way you think.

Speaking as a middle aged vet, federal agent who trains in boxing and krav maga- I think there are lots of similar people who would like custom/semi-custom programs for something like this.

There are plenty of programs you can find for MMA, wrestling, etc.  I've never seen one for shooting/combat skills but never really looked.

There are lots of fitness programs that are dedicated to military and LE or at least attempt to apply their philosophies to the skills set- Military Athlete, CrossFit, Sealfit.

I think what's missing in some of the comments is you are talking about designing a program specifically for an individual to perform specific tasks at a specific age, fitness level, life stage etc. Just like NFL players employ training programs very different from HS players.

What I think will be tough is getting too many people with this interest to come in for classes at set times.  My work schedule limits me to evenings or weekend activities.

Two thoughts: could you design a one day a week session on weekends that augments a more general fitness/training program.  Something like a specific day to address the tactical movements, almost like some athletes employ specific explosive days or mobility days.

Or develop virtual custom training programs people can do and you mentor them online.  You would probably get lots of people for that. It depends on if your goal is to build a specific area of your business to maximize space/equipment not being used all day or generate new revenue streams.  Please note I'm not a business man so this area is way beyond my expertise.

Is there a market? Possibly.

Is it an interesting idea? Absolutely.

Is that market big enough to be worthwhile for you?  Probably not.

Most folks that do a lot of back country hunting already workout (conditioning & strength training) so the next time is easier.  

Gun gamers?  Maybe, but it's going to be a hard sell.  Most of the folks that know/think they can/would benefit from personalized training to improve their results (IPSC/USPSA/3 Gun/PRS/etc.) are already pursuing conditioning and/or strength training to improve.  That leaves the "middle pack" guys as your likely market, that have jobs/responsibilities that may not lend themselves to being able to come to you 2 or 3 times a week.

Mil?  Outside of specific units, the focus is on overall fitness, not shoot & move specific fitness.  The units that need shoot & move specific fitness already incorporate it into their workups, ergo, again, no real market for you to capture there.

LEO? Maybe?  I can possibly see SWAT types being interested, but again, majority of them already pursue their personal fitness goals.

Remember, most "gun folks" are cheapskates.  Some will spend the time & money to seek out professional instruction, wherever they think they can find value (improve their performance), but I'm willing to bet that is less than 2% of the entire community of gun owners.

Something that "might" help you would be partnering with a local to you instructor, that's willing to let you video & critique their students at the end of a course.  E.g. Point out to them how if they come see you/pay for your services, you can improve their performance in these specific areas that you highlight for them w/ the tape rolling.

Outside of that, I just don't see it.

Maybe a 3 day class that starts early with PT and hand 2 hand. Then range drills, then team tactics. Then philosophy over some whiskey.

That’s Shivworks ECQC.

If I were trying to start off from scratch in the US, and I had mat space, gym space, and a nearby range who was cool with moving forward of the firing line. I would host Craig twice a year (one open enrollment and maybe one LEO-only) and use it as an example of your facilities as a form of marketing.

I wonder if the seminar style would suit you better.   Every few months host a tactical fitness seminar.  See who shows up.  Builds a base.  Gets ppl talking.    
   At my MMA gym , my coach hosts a weapon self defense seminar once every 6 months or so.   Has guys from different  states come in to teach it.

So my .02.

You have a couple of problems that other posts have mentioned.  

1.  Most "shooters" are cheap.

-  So, there isn't really much you can do about this.  It's true.  Hell, an unfortunate number of gun owners never bother to get any firearms education at all.  This really isn't a huge problem as you probably don't want the bottom feeders and self-declared experts as clients anyway.  Your existing business seems more high-end than cattle cart anyway.

2.  Don't want to negatively impact your existing business.

-  This is just a marketing issue and isn't really something that I'd worry about yet.  If you complete a proof of concept test run in-house with a couple of existing clients and/or gun-toting friends then you can take a hard look at marketing the training as some variant of an apocalypse, 3-gun athletic, or combative fitness.  I'd just avoid associations that trigger the trolls and avoid calling it anything law enforcement or military-related on any kind of marketing media.  Keep the printed and electronic media light and fun and then have a couple of "client" videos on youtube that show guys getting their figurative asses kicked while doing a near puke-inducing workout in armor (weighted vests) with rifles that are the fake heavy, solid, and shitty kind that the military used to make recruits carry around.  

3.  No range.

- Not having a big outdoor range sucks but you can always put in some of the electronic training "ranges" for guys to use in between anaerobic exercises (or however you set things up).


Really, the only expensive item that you'd need for a test run of the firearms fitness portion would be an electronic range or electronic firearms practice setup.  While you could just do the fitness part I'd think that linking the anaerobic bursts with firearms manipulation would be key.  If you pressed forward you'd likely want a firearms instructor or to get one or two of your existing instructors spun up on the basics of firearms instruction so that they could encourage good weapons handing skills at the basic level (finger off the trigger, don't flag, proper grip...) .

Basically, I don't see any reason not to do a test run.