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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:10:18 AM EDT
As the title says, is America a people or an idea? Or parts of both?
If it is an idea, at what point do the people and institutions existing in the continental U.S. cease being Amercian? If it is a people, at what point do the people and institutions existing in the continental U.S. cease being American? I.e. if someone snapped their fingers and everyone, or nearly everyone, thought like an NGO leader who jerks it to Soros? is that still America as you or your American ancestors saw it? Or if 350 million Americans were replaced with 350 million Poles (assume there are that many  )would it still be America? So are ideas or identity more important, and how would you weigh each? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:27:40 AM EDT
[#1]
Neither.
It’s the constitution. And since we no longer follow it, and have violated it all to fuck, we don’t have a constitution anymore. No constitution, no America. It’s over unless we get the constitution back. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:33:24 AM EDT
[#2]
America is a based upon ideas that the people represent, based on things the founders laid out.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:34:05 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither. It’s the constitution. And since we no longer follow it, and have violated it all to fuck, we don’t have a constitution anymore. No constitution, no America. It’s over unless we get the constitution back. So if it is impossible to get the Constitution back, exactly as it was (which year or era, we've had many alterations), with enough(?) people abiding by it, there is no America? It's just a bunch of people on a continent? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:38:04 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: America is a based upon ideas that the people represent, based on things the founders laid out. What if the ideas between what the people think and what the founders laid out are irreconcilable? Is America dead and gone then? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:48:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Canada, Mexico, Belize, Panama, Argentina, et al are "America." North, central and south America.
I think you are speaking about the "United States of America." To paraphrase a founder "you have a republic, if you can keep it." It was an idea, a hope. It has lasted for merely two plus centuries, and I hope it continues, but the "if you can keep it" part seems difficult at this time. We'll see. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:53:56 AM EDT
[#6]
I'm beginning to think it's a memory.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:56:23 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Canada, Mexico, Belize, Panama, Argentina, et al are "America." North, central and south America. I think you are speaking about the "United States of America." To paraphrase a founder "you have a republic, if you can keep it." It was an idea, a hope. It has lasted for merely two plus centuries, and I hope it continues, but the "if you can keep it" part seems difficult at this time. We'll see. Yes, on a forum that is at least 87% citizens of the United States of America, I used the colloquialism, "America". Very weird, I know So if we aren't living under this idea, what do all the people from the west coast to the east coast (of the current United States of America, to clarify) consider themselves? Not asking you to be nostradamus or anything, but they wouldn't be Americans then right? In the sense I mean above, of course When does that transformation happen? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:58:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if the ideas between what the people think and what the founders laid out are irreconcilable? Is America dead and gone then? No, because the founders laid out things that weren't overarching like a rule book. They took precautions as to leave in a LOT of freedoms while keeping the bare minimum for a functioning country that the people could work out on their own. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 4:58:58 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: As the title says, is America a people or an idea? Or parts of both? If it is an idea, at what point do the people and institutions existing in the continental U.S. cease being Amercian? If it is a people, at what point do the people and institutions existing in the continental U.S. cease being American? I.e. if someone snapped their fingers and everyone, or nearly everyone, thought like an NGO leader who jerks it to Soros? is that still America as you or your American ancestors saw it? Or if 350 million Americans were replaced with 350 million Poles (assume there are that many )would it still be America? So are ideas or identity more important, and how would you weigh each? At this point? A fairy tale you tell your kids befor they fall asleep so they dream of an enchanted land of opportunity and freedom. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:00:46 AM EDT
[#10]
America is an idea.
The people who subscribe to that idea, are Americans. The people who do not, are liberals/communists/fascists/Islamists, not Americans. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:04:26 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, because the founders laid out things that weren't overarching like a rule book. They took precautions as to leave in a LOT of freedoms while keeping the bare minimum for a functioning country that the people could work out on their own. What if, LEGALLY, the constitution is amended to get rid of the entire bill of rights? Freedom of speech gets a lot more narrow, and we finally figure out that the 2nd amendment only regards the official state or national guard, the 4th amendment doesn't apply to 3rd parties acting at the behest of the government, etc. I mean, there could certainly be an entity calling itself America after that, but what do the founders have to do with that? |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:12:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Both. Many of the people that came here escaped tyranny of some form.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:14:15 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: America is an idea. The people who subscribe to that idea, are Americans. The people who do not, are liberals/communists/fascists/Islamists, not Americans. So the score is according to this: we have U.S. citizens who are not Americans there are people who have never set foot in the U.S. who are Americans Not trying to be overly argumentative, just trying to figure some things out. But does that mean we allow everyone to immigrate who, say for example, passes a test that proves they believe in the idea? eta: to expand, I could go to any other country and be readily identifiable as an American. If I saw an American in south korea or the congo or russia, I would have way more in common with them than anyone from those places. At least in some important ways. The hypothetical host country wouldn't consider me them, as I don't speak their language, eat their food, or any of the million other cultural markers even if ethnically I matched them tl;dr a black billingual insane clown posse fan who was born and raised in Gary, Indiana, who I found in bulgaria would have more in common with me than a bulgarian who loved Thomas Jefferson |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:23:14 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if, LEGALLY, the constitution is amended to get rid of the entire bill of rights? Freedom of speech gets a lot more narrow, and we finally figure out that the 2nd amendment only regards the official state or national guard, the 4th amendment doesn't apply to 3rd parties acting at the behest of the government, etc. I mean, there could certainly be an entity calling itself America after that, but what do the founders have to do with that? That's on the people. The revolution wasn't an overwhelming majority, it was just people who stuck to their morals. If it comes to pass that SMALL MAJORITY of people won't stand up for their ideals, then well, yeah the republic dies. I mean Jesus was just one dude. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 5:38:48 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Neither. It’s the constitution. And since we no longer follow it, and have violated it all to fuck, we don’t have a constitution anymore. No constitution, no America. It’s over unless we get the constitution back. Yep. It was supposed to be an enduring document of freedom. Our government turned it into shit. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:10:21 AM EDT
[#16]
People and a place.
The idea nonsense is Lincoln's proposition nation garbage. If we are an idea than an idea belongs to everyone in the world which is why our culture(s) and history is constantly being eroded. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:19:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. It was supposed to be an enduring document of freedom. Our government turned it into shit. No the people did. Those suffragettes on the street way back when should've gotten curb stiomped. But when you as a nation try to be fair and give a voice to everyone you see the outcome. And as we experience now, everyone has a chance to succeed but all they scream about is what the government can do for them. And do against others. It's a sick and twisted way of trying to govern. Constitution only works if the people who willing to work and prosper are the ones calling the shots. Period. That means you earn the ability to vote once you have skin in the game. Regardless of your sex or skin color or if you're a gay or not. It won't work if you allow those on the public dole the ability to extort more money and ironically not for themselves. But the hucksters who continually stir the pot. So until laws are introduced where those on the dole, those who work in government, and those who do business with the government are prevented from voting, then it continues down the current path. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:28:51 AM EDT
[#18]
Is America a people or an idea?
Neither. It’s a memory. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:31:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is America a people or an idea? Neither. It’s a memory. It'll go through some dark days for sure. But it's not a memory just yet. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:41:27 AM EDT
[#20]
Idea.
Anybody can be an American. You can be born in Japan, come over here, embrace the constitution, you're American. No matter what, I can never be a Japanese. That's a people and an idea. My people are largely from Germany. I'll never be "a" German. That's an idea, a culture, an inside joke that I'll never be able to fully understand. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:45:18 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What if, LEGALLY, the constitution is amended to get rid of the entire bill of rights? Freedom of speech gets a lot more narrow, and we finally figure out that the 2nd amendment only regards the official state or national guard, the 4th amendment doesn't apply to 3rd parties acting at the behest of the government, etc. I mean, there could certainly be an entity calling itself America after that, but what do the founders have to do with that? Nope. the Constitution created and authorized the federal government by the states by delegating very few powers. No where in it (Article 1 Section 8) did the states give it the authority to regulate guns, speech, religion, income, or have a police force, etc., as the federal government was created for external affairs of the states better handled as more regular as a group. It was only after the Anti-Federalists (who ere the true federalists) lobbied for the Bill of Rights as "insurance' was it added to the Constitution. And it still did not matter. Mainly, IMHO, because we allow the Supreme Court to be the final arbiter of their own government's power - instead of it being the duty of the states and the people. America is an ideal spelled out in the Declaration of Independence which can only be perpetuated by a moral and just people. A native American can move to Germany and become a German citizen, but will never be German. But a German can move to America and become an American. (Edit for clarity) |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:49:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. It was supposed to be an enduring document of freedom. Our government turned it into shit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Neither. It’s the constitution. And since we no longer follow it, and have violated it all to fuck, we don’t have a constitution anymore. No constitution, no America. It’s over unless we get the constitution back. Yep. It was supposed to be an enduring document of freedom. Our government turned it into shit. Our document of freedom is the Declaration of Independence. The Constitution is merely a delegation of powers by the states to create a federal government. That is crucial to understand that your rights exist from your creator (or humanity), pre-exist the Constitution, and would exist without the Constitution. like when we were Americans under the Articles of Confederation. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 6:55:32 AM EDT
[#23]
America is fucked.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:13:31 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It'll go through some dark days for sure. But it's not a memory just yet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is America a people or an idea? Neither. It’s a memory. It'll go through some dark days for sure. But it's not a memory just yet. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Have a pleasant day. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:18:19 AM EDT
[#25]
The soil isn’t magic.
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:19:19 AM EDT
[#26]
It is the Constitution of the People of the original United States that declared we would no longer be Subject to an autocracy. We would be self-governed Citizens
represented for our God given Rights and beliefs. As with all systems of government, greed and lust for power adulterates the process. We are no longer a Constitutional Republic. The love of money rules our Nation. Our government has been bought out. Money equates to Power. And Power corrupts. Sadly, we are now Subjects to our careers, mortgages, loans, electronic media, leisure and instincts. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 7:58:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Both.
The like minded that just want to be left the fuck alone, will always exist. And they ain't going anywhere. Some are sworn to it. Others maintain it on their own. It's an ethos that hat has been driven from the forefront, through much obvious effort, and expense. Yet still remains, despite the clever efforts to destroy the framework around it. Govt., is an illusion of control, and always has been. Our "Govt." was designed to support us, not limit us. Scum lawyers, make good $$$ tearing Govt. down, to control us, and shape the thought of our kids, as compliant next generation slaves. It ain't about Govt. Never has been. We ain't going anywhere. |
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Posted: 1/17/2021 12:38:22 PM EDT
[#28]
I feel bad for all these pessimistic naysayers.
America isn't going anywhere, take control of your lives, quit listening to the propaganda and live out your dreams. Appreciate the FACT that you can still do that these days anywhere in this world. The .gov is as relevant or irrelevant as you want them to be, until they come to your door to take you or all your shit, ignore them and their banter. Take stock of what you have, the freedoms you have and enjoy them, or not. |
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