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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:56:36 AM EDT
Asking for a friend. No really, he asked me this question and I did not have a good answer! So...why bother incorporating these into the design? Safety? Convenience at more austere locations? Because it would seem that anywhere an F35 is going to land is going to have to have all kinds of logistics already there, especially fuel.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:02:19 PM EDT
[#1]
Drastically reduced the amount of ground equipment needed. 10 pilots can board at once during a scramble instead of waiting on a ladder. And no need to have crew available to move the ladder away.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:14:20 PM EDT
[#2]
Might also be for austere location, could have been a spec requirement.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:26:39 PM EDT
[#3]
Ready alert launch, jump in and go.
Expeditionary fields. Emergency landing somewhere without services readily available. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:26:59 PM EDT
[#4]
At home station there are plenty of boarding ladders for the type of aircraft based there.
Off station, not so much. Bottom line: yes, they are highly useful and often used. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:29:49 PM EDT
[#5]
See what it says right by his foot?
RESCUE |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:34:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Drastically reduced the amount of ground equipment needed. 10 pilots can board at once during a scramble instead of waiting on a ladder. And no need to have crew available to move the ladder away. And, GSE might scratch/damage the skin. There must be a bunch of different ladders and platforms out there, and not all of them might be meant to play nicely with the F-35. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:45:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And, GSE might scratch/damage the skin. There must be a bunch of different ladders and platforms out there, and not all of them might be meant to play nicely with the F-35. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Drastically reduced the amount of ground equipment needed. 10 pilots can board at once during a scramble instead of waiting on a ladder. And no need to have crew available to move the ladder away. And, GSE might scratch/damage the skin. There must be a bunch of different ladders and platforms out there, and not all of them might be meant to play nicely with the F-35. It would have been far cheaper to build all new ladders for the ground than to integrate them into the planes. Also, as far as I know, ALL fighters have built in steps. Some are not for every day use, but they are there. I worked on F-111's, and they had one post that popped straight out. It was a hell of a jump from the step to the ground, but it was a lot better than jumping from the cockpit. Like I said, the primary reason is to be able to rescue the crew, or for them to rescue themselves. If the plane is on fire, you don't want to have to choose a broken leg over burning. ETA: It's written right on the side of the plane...  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:48:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Definitely looks like the integral boarding ladder is standard in USAF F-35 land.
 Luke AFB First F-35 Student Pilot Flight (HD) |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:11:22 PM EDT
[#9]
I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:35:45 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:56:51 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: 
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:06:03 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg I understand why the navy and marines would want ladders. I don't understand why he would think that the air force wouldn't also want ladders. Especially since it is there for crew rescue. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:37:29 PM EDT
[#13]
The F-35 is common across all services.
I see F-18’s park at Wisconsin Aviation and the south ramp all the time. On the south ramp WisAv will normally send a minivan over to pick up the crew but that is it (and there they are 100 yards from a restricted Guard ramp with F-16’s). When they park at the FBO their jets get about the same level of service as your average business jet, twin, or 172, which means the pilots are on their own. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:41:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F-35 is common across all services. I see F-18’s park at Wisconsin Aviation and the south ramp all the time. On the south ramp WisAv will normally send a minivan over to pick up the crew but that is it (and there they are 100 yards from a restricted Guard ramp with F-16’s). When they park at the FBO their jets get about the same level of service as your average business jet, twin, or 172, which means the pilots are on their own. Good point. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:54:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And, GSE might scratch/damage the skin. There must be a bunch of different ladders and platforms out there, and not all of them might be meant to play nicely with the F-35. ladders aren't universal F4 doesn;t fit an A4,F100,T33, etc... |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 5:24:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good point. But I am not sure that F-35’s will be left unattended like F-18’s. During a hurricane a year or so ago there were a dozen F-18’s parked on the south ramp for the weekend. At the FBO I sometimes see a couple of F-18’s parked next to GA aircraft. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 5:46:00 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The F-35 is common across all services. I see F-18’s park at Wisconsin Aviation and the south ramp all the time. On the south ramp WisAv will normally send a minivan over to pick up the crew but that is it (and there they are 100 yards from a restricted Guard ramp with F-16’s). When they park at the FBO their jets get about the same level of service as your average business jet, twin, or 172, which means the pilots are on their own. Back in the day when I worked line, we got F-18s in pretty frequently. The crew were always impressed when we had the ladder down and pinned by the time the canopy was up. Kept them from having to slide down the flap. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 5:53:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg So much "WIN," in that photo! Such a variety of historical aircraft! Is that a Crusader in the right forefront or an A-7? |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 5:55:43 PM EDT
[#19]
Not having ladders built in is a logistics nightmare.
They are bulky pieces of shit. They make sketchy ladders for the F16 that can be carried in the travel pod but trust me, don’t trust them. Legally you can’t climb on the wing tanks to get on top of the jet and getting to the cockpit from behind takes Jedi moves. Built in ladders weigh very little and are a huge plus, so I doubt we will ever see another production fighter without an onboard ladder. The 22 will be the last. |
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Posted: 1/25/2021 6:02:49 PM EDT
[#20]
Yeah, hard to damage an aircraft with a built in ladder.
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Posted: 1/25/2021 6:08:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Mobile, external ladders make great things for damaging wingtips (just like fuel trucks).
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Posted: 1/25/2021 6:50:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Maybe to keep ladders from scratching that expensive paint?
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Posted: 1/25/2021 7:11:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Not modern but modern enough, the A-10 are equipped with one.
 
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Posted: 1/25/2021 7:33:48 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, hard to damage an aircraft with a built in ladder. But it's been done. During FCLP's one night, we were hot seating pilots, and the plane captain forgot to close the boarding ladder on my buddy's Prowler. They took off that way (can't see the ladder from the cockpit), and had a heck of a vibration in the air, and didn't have any idea what was causing it. They landed of course, and that's when the problem was discovered. It sort of "sprung" the ladder, and I believe the airframers had to do a little repair work. And, there is a compartment in the ladder well, where the gear pins are stored for flight. Those pins ended up being scattered down the runway. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 12:35:16 AM EDT
[#25]
How are you gonna close the canopy at the end of the flying day? How are you gonne open the canopy at the beginning of the flying day?
Drag a stand around to every aircraft? Hell no. Integral ladder it is. ETA: I’m orginally a light grey F-15 guy. C models dont have a hydraulic actuator to lift the canopy like D models (also assuming E models as well). |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:10:12 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you gonna close the canopy at the end of the flying day? How are you gonne open the canopy at the beginning of the flying day? Drag a stand around to every aircraft? Hell no. Integral ladder it is. ETA: I’m orginally a light grey F-15 guy. C models dont have a hydraulic actuator to lift the canopy like D models (also assuming E models as well). Looks like most of these ladders are manually activated from the ground, right? I would guess that the marshaller probably extends the ladder on a civilian ramp when they chock the jet. (Or the driver of the minivan.  )Can pilots self-deploy these ladders from on top of any of these jets? |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:17:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Looks like most of these ladders are manually activated from the ground, right? Yes, theres a flush latch on the very bottom step (flush with skin of the aircraft when stowed) that ground personnel will depress to release the ladder. I would guess that the marshaller probably extends the ladder on a civilian ramp when they chock the jet. (Or the driver of the minivan. )Can pilots self-deploy these ladders from on top of any of these jets? Yes, the second to top hand hold (spring loaded door) has a step switch so the pilot can step on it with his toes to release the ladder. Response for F-15’s above |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:21:20 AM EDT
[#28]
You can get an A-6 ladder here...https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-REAL-Grumman-A-6-Intruder-Pilot-Boarding-Ladder-MINT-Authentic-US-Navy-Item-/174047587683
Crazy... was just curious and it popped up. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:21:59 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Response for F-15’s above Thanks. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:37:15 AM EDT
[#30]
It's cheaper to have it integrated that have some lacky push the stairs against the skin of the aircraft and damage it.
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Posted: 1/26/2021 1:37:32 AM EDT
[#31]
My F-15 unit TDY to an F-15 base. We didnt bring any ladders. Just used the integral ladder.
 Attached FileAnother F-15 unit TDY at the same time and location. They brought their ladders.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 7:36:49 AM EDT
[#32]
Aaaaand one of our biggest structural challenges we have with the hang on ladder is the "250lb crew chief jumping onto the ladder to see how far backwards the bounce from the ladder will propel him backwards like a diving board" load case. The integral ladder is a smaller target for such shenanigans.
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Posted: 1/26/2021 8:04:27 AM EDT
[#33]
A big OP thank you to all who responded! I had no idea that ladders could stir the soul like they apparently do
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Posted: 1/26/2021 8:39:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Ground equipment = FOD.
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Posted: 1/26/2021 10:00:53 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My F-15 unit TDY to an F-15 base. We didnt bring any ladders. Just used the integral ladder. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145946/A3530AA1-E25C-4226-893D-1AFCD46E398A_jpe-1797157.JPG Another F-15 unit TDY at the same time and location. They brought their ladders.https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/145946/5A8790F9-3924-4811-A5E8-7A73912D966F_jpe-1797158.JPG Those are some great pictures! |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 10:17:30 AM EDT
[#36]
The ladders deploy by inserting your foot into a swing door on the side of the fuselage up by the cockpit and pressing your foot on a release button and the ladder falls from gravity.
Getting it back up by yourself is almost impossible though. The Eagle has them because there are plenty of wartime and peacetime divert fields and plenty of primary destinations that can service the jet with at least fuel but do not have the ground equipment like a ladder. Also on deployment, less shit to bring. I used that ladder many many times after landing at an unplanned destination for various reasons and on deployments. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 10:46:07 AM EDT
[#37]
Somewhere deep in my piles of digital crap from my USAF career I have a great photo of a F-15E that had the boarding ladder deploy while supersonic on an FCF.
Interestingly enough, no damage done...but they called the SOF and asked for a chase ship to check out if they were damaged, and it yielded a picture that, if you don't know what it is of, just looks like a boarding ladder deployed in flight. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 5:36:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So much "WIN," in that photo! Such a variety of historical aircraft! Is that a Crusader in the right forefront or an A-7? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg So much "WIN," in that photo! Such a variety of historical aircraft! Is that a Crusader in the right forefront or an A-7? Looks like an RF-8 |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:47:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those are some great pictures! Thanks! You can just make out where the ladder is when it’s stowed. It’s the area to the right of the formation light in front of the inlet.  Attached FileAnd for gee whiz. The inlet difference when ramps are down vs up.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:54:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: See what it says right by his foot? RESCUE If the plane has crashed I'd say jumping 8 feet to the ground would not be a problem. |
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Posted: 1/26/2021 6:56:13 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not modern but modern enough, the A-10 are equipped with one. https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8282/7706003438_90b9967e52_z.jpg https://www.globalaviationresource.com/v2/wp-content/gallery/Hawgsmoke-2016/AE7I5396.jpg Old enough... |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 7:33:30 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg "Soup" Campbell VFP-63 FTW! |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 7:43:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm guessing it was a requirement for the Navy or Marines and they just made it standard on all of them. Probably more expensive to NOT have it in just the AF variant. Why would the Navy and Marines want ladders, but not the Air Force? LOL, you never worked on the deck of an aircraft carrier! A plane captain has enough work just hauling the tie-down chains, I can't imagine humping a ladder too. You need a plane captain to ride brakes in the bird every time it's moved and moving re-spotting birds on the flight deck is an ongoing process. Also, try snaking a ladder though this: https://i.imgur.com/8mDeHIK.jpg Not to mention the vertical landing variants. Why go through all that effort, and be dependent on platform-specific ground support? |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 8:03:16 PM EDT
[#44]
A-4 Skyhawk didn't have an integral boarding ladder. The ladder had a small platform on top, and wheels on the bottom, and the plane captain would have to hump it around. There was a steel rod that protruded from the side of the platform that would "plug in" to a hole on the side of the plane.
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Posted: 1/27/2021 8:20:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "Soup" Campbell VFP-63 FTW! I think I have a close up of that plane in a shoebox somewhere. That jet also had a cameo in "The Final Countdown". |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 8:54:22 PM EDT
[#46]
The AV8A had a boarding step that extended when the canopy was opened, but pilots stomping down on the damn thing broke so many canopies that NAVAIR had them removed. After that, it kinda made the boarding steps in the side of the fuselage moot, since the pilot couldn't reach the first one unless he did a pullup.
Getting in the cockpit from over the wing of the single seater was a gymnastic exercise, but the 2-seat T model was a breeze. Dunno about the B model- they came online after I changed MOS's. |
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Posted: 1/27/2021 9:13:23 PM EDT
[#47]
AV8Bs had the drop step, never knew of one breaking a canopy. I know it would come off track, but simple enough that a pilot could fix it. The two seaters we walked up/down the wing.
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Posted: 1/28/2021 1:40:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AV8Bs had the drop step, never knew of one breaking a canopy. I know it would come off track, but simple enough that a pilot could fix it. The two seaters we walked up/down the wing. On the A's, the seat shop had to pull the canopy and reseat it. It never made sense to me that they took the step off the A's; seems a bit of pilot training would have fixed the problem. Maintainer usage of the step was strictly verboten and was a good way to end up on pad eye cleaning detail... using a teaspoon and toothbrush.
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