I was 15.5% body fat on a Dexa scan 3 weeks ago and really wanna be 10 or hell at least 12.  

Reading there are countless ways to the point it’s almost contradictory.

Obviously I wanna keep as much muscle as possible so what’s the best plan?  Crash diet?  Fasting?  Just keep a calorie deficit balanced diet?  One thing will say to eat closer to maintenance as you get lower in body fat then the next will say aggressive dieting makes no real significant difference in muscle loss.  Also found one diet where you fast 24 hours every week but also take one day as a refeed day.  So does it really matter or just keep a calorie deficit and eventually you get there?

Right now I’m eating on average around 1200 calories and it’s pretty damn clean but my el cheapo body fat scale from Amazon says I’m losing weight but as much muscle as fat.  I’m 181 pounds today on that scale so I’m shooting for 120 grams of protein or so a day.  

Any advice?  It’s been a big goal for a while and really pushing hard to hit it by summer.  

This was yesterday and finally starting to see abs just barely.

Attached File

For my fitness clients I suggest this:  At 180lbs or so, you should be shooting for 1g protein per lb, so 180g.  I assume you’ve figured out your maintenance calories, so come in 300-500 or so below that, 20% good fats, the rest carbs.

Time your carbs around your workouts, no carbs before bed.  Gallon of water a day.  It’s a slow process so be patient.  Have a cheat meal one every week or two (cheat meal, not a cheat day).

And to be in the single digit bf% for too long is not healthy in the long term.  Think periodization...

Just my suggestions, ymmv

And btw, you look pretty damn good already!

If you're natural you are probably going to lose some lean mass while you get there.

Don't most of the BB guys usually slash carbs and up the cardio to prep for stage?

I read a post on reddit from a guy that was a natural and got down to 8% I think. He said it was unsustainable big time, and as soon as he got there his dick stopped working.

Hormone levels are best in men above 12%, which is probably why it's so hard to get below that.

I’ve been on trt for years and I don’t have an aversion to upping it a bit if that helps.  

I’ve done a couple of 48 hour fasts and they really seem to help keep my palate in check and tone down the hunger.

Just one cheat meal sounds awesome!  It’s hard to stay 1200-1500 and hit 180 grams of protein unless I do shakes.  I’m guessing that works though.  Try my best to stick with grilled chicken and eggs.  Somewhere in this I’ve about become an omelet expert so that is a staple meal at this point.  

The original goal was by the end of April so I’ve got 2 months.  Is that doable you think?

Thanks for the help!

Because of the gear?

I've been down to 10, and I got there by lifting a lot, intermittent fasting, and a lowish carb paleo (I know that's an unpopular diet, but it works pretty good and is healthy). Took a very long time, but it did work. I think there's contradictory info out there because there's many ways to skin that cat.

I'd have guessed you were under 15% tbh, you look pretty lean.

^ not much help if your goal is in 2 months.

I’m not sure what you’re asking.  

I was diagnosed with clinically low testosterone at 28 years old.  My level was 176 and I had never touched “gear” or anything of the sort.  I was diagnosed with testicular varicocele at 18 and my doctor thought that was the problem but I don’t know.

I'm hoping for TRT some day. I float between 400-500 when it's checked, so I'm just an average dude.

I have a feeling if I could double it I would feel like a beast. I told my wife I'm taking the stuff at 50 whether I'm testing low or not, because I want to be a ripped old guy.

How tall are you?  I’d guess from that pic you were lower than 15%.

I’m 6’ tall and 180 by the last scale measurement.  My Amazon scale says 14.9 so it’s dropped some but at the Dexa scale I was 188 that day and 15.5.  I’d have hoped to be lower than 14.9 after another 8 lbs.  That’s what has me bothered.  Lately I’m still loosing weight but my bfp seems kinda stuck.  

Attached File

What are you trying to accomplish? Just like the lean look?

If i were you id want to gain more muscle,  you look great.  Just need moar. 180 at 6 foot is pretty light.

If you're on trt ramp up the drugs.  You could use tren, test and deca and get really hard or try winstrol but that makes your joints feel dry.  

Or if you don't want to go all way,  t3 is an option.  Work up from 25 to 75 mcg a day the first week and stay at 75. That will increase your metabolism 30% if you can handle the hunger.  Clenbuterol would be the next step before winstrol or trenbolone.

T3 is harmless at dosages below 75 micrograms. Just don't stay on it forever.

Your legs must be hollow!  I’m a pretty lean 5’11” at about 178 and from that pic you look to outweigh me by 15lbs.

Good lord. Just curious, but do you think if he had a normal testosterone level and wasn't on any drugs that he would still look like that?

I'll be blunt, and I'm not hating bc I'm run very optimal test levels.

He could do what he's done without trt but he'd have to be very dedicated. That's not easy to obtain natural for people with average genetics but it is obtainable. You have to eat right every meal though. No room for error.

There's a huge difference between trt from a regular dr using the old way of doing things and tot using the new way of thinking from a hormone specialist.

My regular dr said the most he's ever given anyone was 60 mgs every other week.  I'm honestly not sure what the hell that would even do.  180 mg puts me at the top of optimal, about 940, 60 mgs every other week seems like it'd be enough to shut down your natural test but not enough to raise it.  

The new way of thinking isn't to replace your test.  Its to optimize it.  I have crappy levels, it does no good to replace a natural 300 with a exogenous 500. I want to optimize it and run at the high end of the range,  950.

I do workout some bc I'm a fatboy at heart. I don't look anything like op right now and it's very hard to get there with my schedule.  I use it so i can keep a good work schedule and still have energy to play Chewbacca with my baby in the evenings and then do puzzles or nintendo with the older kids after dinner.

Ive always been high energy.  Like insanely high energy.  When low t hit me,  i was having random dizzy spells and flushing to the point we were debating if it was safe for me to keep driving if we didn't figure it out.  And i was so fatigued id work 10 hours non physically and fall asleep on my couch while i was talking to my family after work.  Like mid sentence.

I'm not saying everyone should be on drugs and until low t i was 100.000000% anti drug but drugs work.  They make you recover faster,  feel better,  stronger,  joint pain gone, etc.

I know a lot of older business man that seem so healthy and vibrant for their age.  Most of them are on trt, the rest may be but haven't mentioned it to me.  

Drugs work and most athletes have or do take drugs.

Is it covered by insurance? Where did you go to get tested.

Most guys end up above normal though.

Normal for a middle aged man is like 300-500 for most of the population.

I had mine tested at my primary care doctor. Also had them do an NMR lipid profile because I always come in with high HDL and LDL (lower when I am not fat) and low triglycerides.  I wanted better info than the standard lipid panel to assess my CVD risk.  IDK how much of that charge insurance covered. My share was $150 - well worth it for the info.

I thought I might be low-T because I had a lot of trouble getting winter weight off until last year and was having trouble sleeping.

Interesting results. Test came out at 869, but with elevated SHBG. LDL-P was above normal, but LDL particle size was at the far end of "good" or less dense.

Turns out that I had just been eating too many calories and when I started fasting and eating less for Lent 2020, compounded by the lack of need to try to get 150-200g of protein per day becuase all the gyms closed due to COVID, I dropped 38 pounds. 8-10 of that was prob muscle and the rest fat.

So I didn't  need TRT, I needed to eat less and work on lowering SHBG with better sleep, more cruciferous vegetables, and less alcohol and caffeine.

I'm early 50s and not particularly strong by this group's standards, but I do the major barbell lifts heavy and regularly as well as run year-round and SUP in the summer.

Dang man, I would have guessed you were at 10 already.

I wouldn't cut too much more. You look really leaned out right now.

Good luck in your journey.

1200 calories per day is way too low IMO. You’re going to loose muscle mass with that kind of deficit. Also, you should be at 180 grams of protein which is critical to retain muscle while on a cut.  But like you mentioned, you can’t at that deficit.  The problem with too aggressive of a deficit is while you initially loose a good amount of weight, your metabolism adapts and in order to continue loosing fat, you need to increase the deficit. At 1200, you have no where to go.

I get a DEXA once a year to check my lean mass progress. I do it after a cut and I’m currently at 8.9% bf (I’m natural and 49 years old). This isn’t where I try to stay because it’s not optimal for strength or lean mass growth.  The way I cut is to just have a small calorie deficit (about 200 calories).  When progress slows, decrease a little more (about 100 more).  When progress slows again, I’ll add cardio (burn about 100 to 150 calories).  When progress slows, add more cardio.  I do not just keep decreasing calories.  I do not like to go below 500-600 calories below maintenance because you loose the ability to consume the macro nutrients you need (protein) in order to retain muscle and your bodies ability to maintain normal hormone levels.  This is why I add cardio instead.  The calorie deficit may be the same as if I just kept decreasing calorie intake but it’s better to eat more and be more active, than to just eat less because of the nutrients.  I will be at a small calorie surplus to “Bulk” (Massive calorie surplus diets to “Bulk” are just dumb).  When I get to around 12% to 14% bf, it will be time to cut again and the cycle continues.

1200 cals seems low as shit. My maintenance is like 2200 (5’10” #180). I’d maybe drop that to 1700-1800 in a cut. Any more I don’t know if I could function more than a couple days.

Just observations. I don’t know shit.

My urologist is 70 years old and is a cool ass dude.  He still drives fast cars and has sex regular.  He is on trt and has been for years.  The most he prescribes is 200mg a week and at that likes to check the level regularly.  My dad is 65 and also takes it but he has a 7 year old and a much younger wife.  

I’m gonna try upping the calories some and especially the protein.  At the gym lately workouts have sucked, no energy and just feel weak.  I track my meals using MyFitnessPal so it helps keep me accountable.  

Also fwiw I’ve been going to the gym regular since I was 29 years old and I’ll be 42 in a month so it wasn’t an overnight thing.  When I started my max bench was 95 lbs for 5 reps.  

Thanks for the advice!

Having no energy at the gym is a clear sign that you’re not eating enough. If you’ve been at only 1200 calories for a while, there’s a good chance you’ll gain fat when you increase your calorie intake (even just to maintenance).  Kinda unavoidable due to the excessive deficit but you need to do it to fix your metabolism. Once your metabolism recovers, decrease you calories again but slowly to a small deficit and work your way down in small increments.

The kind of cardio I would recommend if you decide to add some is low intensity. A slow jog or just go for a walk. A 30 min walk will burn more than 200 calories, is low impact and will not affect your ability to recover between weight sessions at the gym.  When I’m at the end of a cut, I’m at about a 500 to 600 calorie food intake deficit + a 300 to 400 calorie cardio deficit.  So up to 1000 calorie total deficit that I got to in small increments. Key is SMALL increments and I’m able to consume plenty of protein and carbs to have very little loss of strength and energy.  It’s normal to have a little less strength towards the tail end of a cut because your muscles glycogen stores are low because of the calorie deficit.

Id be interested in data that supports that. The range I'm aware of 300 to like 950ish and includes men from 18 to 90. So i guess middle age would have to be defined by i doubt they'd average in the bottom 25%.

And id also be interested in data that backs up most guys ending up above normal.  Bc normal is the range they use 300 to 950ish. And anything above that isn't therapeutic trt, its recreational. Lot of pretty bold statements that don't make sense mathematically.

I guess normal is pretty relative too. The average us citizen is overweight. But that doesn't mean that the average us citizen is at an optimal body weight.  They aren't.  

I have 0 desire to be normal. I'm very abnormal. Optimal is what I'm trying to accomplish.

This study seems to be pretty fair. They used almost 7000 samples.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Testosterone-distribution-10th-25th-50th-75th-and-90th-percentile-in-men-A-women_fig1_283326530

The median for every age group of adult men is under 500 and after age 30 the 75th percentile is below 500, except for some reason in the 60-69 group, where it's about 550. In every age group the 10th percentile is below 700.

So I have no doubt that running up around 1000 makes people feel great, but I think it's probably unfair to claim that's within the natural range for most people.

I wish I had bloodwork from age 18 onward, I didn't start getting tested until I was 30. At 400-500 I have no symptoms, and according to the data appear to be right in the normal range. I do want to run it up at some point though just to see what kind of difference it makes.

I already told my wife and my doctor that if the falls below 400 I want to try TRT out.

I keep trying to get my dad to go get tested. He's in his 50's and is showing a few signs of diminished T levels. After his dad died he was all gung ho about it because his dad basically spent 10 years wasting away, but he seems to have lost his motivation to go do it now.

Looking at the breakdown, there were roughly 1/3 of each based on BMI with a bias towards norma weight (normal 1200, overweight 1000, obese 1000), so perhaps that skewed it a bit if you removed the obese individuals maybe the scale would slide up in each age group.

Something looks weird with those numbers. To me you look sub 12% easy.

Sounds weird but shaving and getting a tan will probably get you the look you want.

I got to were you are currently but was at around 220ish. It was a fucking road that took working out 2x a day for 12 weeks including eating 8x a day including the middle of the night and up to 3 hours of cardio a day.

I don't know if I want to do that again....

To answer your question though, t3 and an ECA stack mixed with another hour of cardio per day will probably get you sub 10%. How long you want to stay that way is up to you...

I'm no expert but 1200 calories for a guy your size seems insanely low.

I'm the same age, 5-9", 155 and currently 15% BF.

I started last week trying to get down to 10% and cut my daily caloric intake from 3000 down to 2400. My average daily calorie burn hovers around 3200. If I was only eating 1200/day I think I'd pass out. I also drink around 200 oz water/day.

How much cardio are you doing?

I run 25-30 miles a week and am about to start adding HIIT back in twice a week.

Natural and optimal are not the same thing.  If i wanted to be natural id be natural. I'm trying to be optimal.

As to your level being 400, the symptoms are what matters.  If you're at 300 and feel great then there's not any need.  But if you're 600 and symptomatic then you need it. Keep that in mind.  The sexual side effects are a nuisance if you don't need to be on it.

What side effects?

24/7 boners would be annoying again.

Uncontrollable sex drive.  Like having 2 women over on a Saturday night, along with your wife and getting off 6 times and still have intense dreams about having sex with the entire world, twice. And the women are saying it's great but they need a break.  They've got nothing left.

I had a friend who was the most old school conservative middle aged guy you've ever met.  3 weeks on tren ace trying to look good for his best friends wedding and he found himself 300 miles from home with a bunch of hookers in a hotel room. Ruined a 20 year marriage.

Neither of those are me,  just true examples to give you an idea.

I have no idea how these pro bodybuilders on 1 to 3 grams a week can function.

A shit load of 0 sodium and diuretics to weigh in!
Then they eat and even seen some do enemas to get the bloat off before pre judging.

If you are trying to do it through insurance and really want on TRT. You can tank your numbers before you get your bloodwork done. Finally had enough of the BS and just a pay a Doc cash. Because of crackdowns, yes they harass these doctors. I am cruising about 700. When I want to cut for vacation or something we adjust and don't do bloodwork for a quarter.

I don't, which is why I asked. Thanks, though.

Thank you for your detailed explanation and taking the time. This is what I wanted to know.

I do around 20 mins of walking on the treadmill before every workout but that’s about the only cardio I do.  My girlfriend is wanting me to do a hiit workout or whatever with her once a week and gonna start that too.  

I’m around 1200-1500 calories a day and really trying to hammer this out.  I workout 6 days a week and try my best to keep the intensity as high as possible.   The original goal was to be 12% by April 1st but not gonna make it but hopefully won’t miss it by much.  I’m gonna go back to the Dexa scan first week of May and that’ll have been 3 months to see if there is any progress.  

I’ve been on trt for over 10 years now and it’s damn sure not magic, sure it helps but it won’t overcome bad diet or lack of exercise.  

Here is about 13 weeks of serious dieting.  

Attached File

So which was is more sustainable, which one has you spending more time with your wife, and which one doesn't make you count down the days until your program is over?

That's where I got to in all my endeavors and cycles.

Couple of things you can do. Protein sparing modified fast if you are a masochist.
Depends, if you have been on a died for a long time maybe take a break for a mont and eat at slight surplus and put on 5 or so pounds? Go from there, all depends hop long you have been dieting.

Damn you dieted so hard you got tattoos.

Take a look at Lean Gains


He seems to have figured it out.  I like his dieting approach as well we the workout.  His articles are pretty helpful it seems as well.

Damn, 13 weeks of serious dieting got you a new tattoo as well!

Wish you the best of luck... lowest BF I have ever been was post the academy.. 8% to 9%. 173 lbs and 6'5".  

It was digusting, I was all lean.. could run 6:30 minute miles, 60 plus pushups in a minute... but, I looked like an ex POW.