I'm looking for some personal experiences with high intensity weight training. I've lifted for the past 12 years, always doing either 5x5, or some variation of 4/5 day split with 3-5 exercises per body part at 4x10-12 ranges.

I came across some Mike Mentzer videos, with him explaining his Heavy Duty training program, which emphasizes short workout times, a couple warmup sets, and 1 set to failure for the muscle group trained.

His explanation of this way of training makes alot of sense, and was used by others besides Mentzer.

I'll be giving it a go for at minimum 6 weeks.

Has anyone used this program, or one similar, and what were your results?

No, but I'm curious to hear your experience with it....

Actually I just went back on it about 6-8 weeks ago.

The whole theory is basically if you can do a second set you didn’t work hard enough on the first.

I’m an old geezer and have always been a hard gainer. Mostly because I just can’t stand to eat the quantity of quality food it takes to be a human gorilla.

Anyway, since getting back on the HIT horse I have gained strength but no real size. But I am early 60s so packing on muscle is probably wishful thinking. If I never ate another chix breast I would die a happy man.

I really love being done a workout in under 30 minutes.

3 days a week 2 day split

Day 1 legs, chest, tris and bis.

Day 2 back, bis, tris

Mentzer split bis and tris but I figure smaller muscles can recoup fast.

I started lifting 30 years ago when I turned 30.  (Yeah, I'm old.)  I started lifting because I had quit smoking and started to get fat. I had been terribly skinny my entire life and for the first time I was able to put on weight.  I quickly decided I wanted that weight to be muscle instead of fat. Dorian Yates had retired from pro body building shortly before that but was still a big name in the game.  He was a big proponent of the Mentzer method.  I read about it and it made sense to me so that's what I started with and have been using ever since.  When I started lifting I was 6' 1" and 150 pounds.  At my peak I was 275 pounds at 18% body fat.  I know those numbers because I was on active duty and had to get measured because I was over the weight standard.

High Intensity works for me because the human brain is usually the weakest link.  When I would try to do high volume work my brain would give out before my muscles.  Weak will?  Yeah, maybe.  But I found a method to remove the weak link from the chain so why not use it? Understand though, Mentzer's philosophy of only one set to failure is a philosophy, it's almost impossible to make it a reality. In my case I'd do my warm-ups then one set of my max weight to failure and then one drop set to failure.  I'd do that with two or three different movements per muscle group.  More often than not I'd incorporate Joe Weider's pre-exhaust method of doing an isolation movement then one or two compound movements for each major muscle group. In doing that the target muscles and joints are already warmed up so when I transition to the compound movements I only do one lighter set just to lock in my form and establish the mind/muscle connection.  Then I'd go straight into the max sets.  

As an example my chest day would be incline dumbbell flyes, incline dumbbell presses, weighted dips

The major lesson I've learned over the years applies to ALL forms of lifting, form is the key.  That applies doubly for high intensity.  If your form is off you run the risk of serious injury.  You'll also be wasting time and effort in that you won't be working the target muscles as hard as you should be.  Remember you're not in the gym to lift weights.  You're in the gym to work your muscles.  The weights are just tools you use to get that job done.  If you're not feeling the target muscles working you need to change something, probably your form.

I did Max OT many years ago and while I was much younger, it still was hard on my body. I gained a lot of strength and size, but the joints and ligaments man, they took a beating. This was likely due in part to my almost zero concern for proper technique.

Great information.

I'll be doing almost exactly what his plan was (replacing the machine exercises with free weight, as the only "machine" I have is for leg ext/curls).

If I can remember, I will updated this thread as I go.

Being a normal person with things like a job and a family kind of interferes with it.

If you can actually push to complete failure on a single set....and you do that for every exercise every workout, you're gonna either be constantly fatigued and sore, injured, or both.

I'm not talking about an AMRAP, Mentzer advocated pushing to absolute failure in one ball busting set, most people can't sustain a program like that for long.

If you dedicate something like a 4 week block to it though you might kickstart some new progress, the body does love novel stimulus from time to time.

Whether it will work for you depends completely on your goals.

Unfortunately most people jump from program to program without having specific goals set.  With that mentality, you’ll never succeed at anything because you haven’t set a goal and defined success.

Find out where you want to go with your fitness and then pick a program that fits that with a measurable end goal that can be met or failed at reaching.  Then adjust accordingly.

Or do what I do.  I turn 40 this year and do a variety of everything from the big 3 lifts to playing soccer with my kids and other 20somethings in the community.  My program is “consistency.”  Meaning I never take more than a day of some kind of physical activity basically ever.  

People who don’t know me are typically shocked when I tell them how old I actually am.   Fortunately I still have my hair for now and not too many greys yet, so it’s hard to pin a number on me.  

Edit:  Most of the weight lifting gorillas I knew 10 years ago are all just normal looking fat dudes now.   I’m coaching the soccer team that a lot of their kids are now on and I get a lot of comments like “where do you find the energy to run around and play with them like that?  I can barely jog for 5 minutes.”

The “heavy weightlifting gorilla” is not a long term plan for fitness success for most people.  Just be a normal active human that can run and lift moderately heavy shit.

My grey hair is my giveaway. The whole back of my head is going grey.

Someone asked me the other day if I was 30, they seemed surprised that I'm almost 40.

Don't get fat, workout, wear sunscreen, don't smoke or drink, it's not that hard.

This is the first week I've been using this method (started Saturday the 15th), and with having roughly 72hrs between weight sessions, and lifting for only 35-40 minutes every third day, I've found to have much more time on my hands (if that's what you mean regarding job, family, etc).

Rest and recovery is of greatly advocated for while on the program. I haven't felt more sore this week than I have doing the more common, higher volume training.

So I was just thumbing through Bromley's Base Strength book and found this snippet.

Seemed relevant.

I think you could see some gains from it.  Primarily because it's new to you.  

It should be known that guy built his physique doing volume work and later switched to this method.  

I've worked out most of my life and that's a long time...lol...49 years old.  I've done a lot of different things and all of them contributed to where I'm at now.  Starting strength built my foundation, other power lifting routines took me further, volume work gave me the most gains in muscle size, and high intensity may have helped me break a plateau once.  Overall, I'd say high intensity low volume like this did the least for me personally, but everything I've tried worked to some extent.  Over years of working out I do believe it's important to try different things for at least 12-week periods here and there.  

For me it seems as much volume as I can take for as many weeks as I can has worked the best for muscle gains.

Volume is a "safe" way to get the work in. It works for most people, most of the time, and lots of guys much stronger and bigger than me also recommend it as the bulk of your work.

I blew up on boring but big, but I was always sore, always hungry, and I struggled with the schedule once work started to get really crazy. If you miss one day while running 531 your whole week is fucked.

I mix volume with heavy lifting working up to a heavy single on either squat, bench, or deadlift once per week.  This morning was heavy bench day.

This is what I did today...

Incline dumbbell press 2 sets of 15 reps, light weights full range of motion with a stretch.

Bench press (keep in mind I use standard weights my bar is 25 lbs)  

75   lbs x 12
95   lbs x 10
115 lbs x 8
135 lbs x 8
155 lbs x 8
175 lbs x 6
195 lbs x 5
215 lbs x 2
235 lbs x 1
255 lbs x 1
275 lbs x 1
295 lbs x 1 (This is within 15 lbs of my all time max bench. I felt like I could get that today, but didn't want to push a max lift just get close)
175 lbs to failure

Incline dumbbell press 2 more sets of 15 reps with low weights full range of motion with stretch.

To me that is a lot of volume especially considering I workout 5-6 days a week although several of those workouts are lighter and one "pump" arm day. I've always had small biceps because I basically never did direct bicep work most of my life.

Dorian Yates also trained like that. He’d do 1-2 sets 1-2 reps to failure and said that’s when he became a mass monster.

OP isn't Dorian Yates though.

   “I had emotional contact with that Dianabol. For me, that was the best steroid I ever took. During the off-season, it was my favorite. If I had to choose a single fucking thing, that would be it… It’s the best single steroid you can take.”

   – Dorian Yates

Agreed.

My opinion is everyone over complicates lifting.

Just get in the gym and lift, consistently, 3-5 days every week, until you are too old or dead.

The internet makes it worse, and we all do it.

Paralysis by analysis.

I haven't even been progressing the weight much this summer, I just make it a point to actually lift something every week so that I don't rust. I pick a rep goal for the day and see how many sets it takes me to reach it.....then it's time for a sandwich or something.

I agree with fact that there is a pile of "influencers" juiced up and advocating for XYZ workouts.

Which is what drew me to Mike Mentzer's training philosophy. He had said that all the high volume training 4-5 times a week is great for dudes on gear, as they can recover much faster than a natural lifter (which I am). I have used that style of training for many years, continuously spinning my wheels.

I have a 72 hour rest period between each of my trainings. I'm not training 5 days a week maximum intensity.

If you want to do kind of HIIT, but more "everyman" friendly.

Something like greyskull uses a fixed rep scheme and progression, but it asks you to AMRAP the last working set of each exercise. This ensures enough sub max work for the day to get the volume most people need, and it gives you a gauge. If you go balls out on the last set each time, then when you deload you work your back up and if your last set rep count isn't increasing as you work back up, you know something is missing.

I'm not quite sure what "everyman friendly" means.

Mentzer's program has made more sense to me than any other trainings I've done. I like basic stuff, and this is as basic as I've done (get 6-8 clean reps with good form, then push until complete failure. Up the weight the next week after 8 clean reps can be performed.)

I will certainly look into the greyskull method. Do you have experience with greyskull, and if so, how did it work for you?

By everyman I mean just your average Joe that has a life outside of lifting. Going to absolute technical failure is not sustainable with either the lifestyle or the drugs to help.

Yes on the greyskull, I've used a lot, usually in the late fall after I've slacked off for months because of work.

It's basically Starting Strength but with deadlift and squat split up and rows and chinups programmed. 3x5, last set is AMRAP. So you get weight on the bar pretty quickly without getting too beat up.

Usually after summer I'm shot, so if I restart I set my squat and deadlift at something like current bodyweight and just try to get lots of reps in while quickly getting weight back up.

I'm not a number chaser though, I just like looking good naked.

I'll stick with volume.

I haven't done any 1RM work in a while.  I just don't care.

I will back my rep scheme down to strength building ranges (5x3 or 5x5) every 4 weeks.  It's a good change of pace and it keeps things interesting.  After that, back to 4x10s and drop sets.


ETA: I'm 45 with shoulder pains.  One slip and I'll be out of the gym for a long time or for good.

We all took a vote, you don't.

PM Sent

You think Mike Mentzer was natural?  It’s documented that he built his physique with volume and then switched routines.

I assume he’s not Mike either:


“If you want to compete, on even the local, national, international, or professional level, without a doubt steroids are a part of it.”

Having said that OP, a lot has changed in the realm of bodybuilding and strength training since Mike’s days. The data is more finely tuned. Doing a Menzter style of training probably isn’t the best for advancement- especially for normal people.

I can't speak to the effectiveness of HIT, but THIS book is worth the purchase price just for Darden's storytelling.  He was there when much of the big bodybuilding stuff happened and his stories are fascinating.  The used copies are less than three dollars.

I've got some experience with it, but via another path. The book Body By Science drew heavily from Mike Mentzer for its methods- and I followed that book for quite a while.

In short, I got pretty consistent results out of it over the course of six months or so, as measured by eventually maxing out the weight stack on several machines. However, every time I try to rotate back to it, I never see the same kind of benefit. I think the key was that when I did it the first time, I worked out with my wife, and we traded back and forth as each other's coach. The coach aspect was huge, because you just stepped out of your mind, dealt with the pain, and did what coach said. Whenever I've tried to go back on my own, it's always been solo.

I don't think most people, me included, are able to push themselves hard enough on their own for a Mentzer-style lifting session. You can push hard, very hard, but that "tuning out" and going until absolute failure is exponentially more difficult on your own.

Adding to that, this style of training pretty much necessitates machines. I would never want to do it with a barbell or any other free weight because the risk of technique breakdown and injury goes through the roof.

Update on the new training regimen.

For reference to some of the below info: I am 6'2, 227lb (post-shit morning weight, as of today), 34X34 jeans. Only supplements used is creatine, protein powder, and pre workout on weight training days.

Tomorrow's lift will be the last lift of my first 3 weeks. My training split is as follows

A- Chest & Back

B - Legs

C- Shoulders, Biceps, Triceps

All of my lifts are done with 2 warmups, and 1 set to failure. Each body part gets 2 exercises.( EX: chest/back day- rows, bench press, pullups, dips). I use weight for the set to failure to be able to get a clean 6-8 reps, then push to failure with half reps, forced reps, or drop sets.


I rest 72 hours between each weight training session.


Each lift/exercise has went up for every training, either in reps or in weight. (EX: 1st week bench was 205 for 8 clean reps, last bench session was 225 for 8 clean). Dead hang pullups went from 3 clean to 5 clean since starting (pullups were always an enemy of mine).


On non lift days, it's walks, jogs, or stair machine (light cardio).


My diet is fairly keyed in. Keep it to 2200 cals a day, 60% of those cals are carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat.


Weight has dropped roughly 6lbs since starting, which I'm content with (2lb/wk). I don't attribute this directly to the weight training, but to the diet.


This will be the first time I've taken measurements as well, instead of just using my weight as a factor of fat loss.


I've gained 1/8" to my neck, 1/8" to my arm, and lost 2" around the thickest part of my waist.


In the past when I've cut calories to lean out, I end up looking "skinny fat", which I would guess is due to training without the appropriate rest time. I look fuller in the shoulders, arms, chest and back, while losing around my waist. I do attribute this to both the new style of weight training and diet together.


I'll be taking roughly 2 weeks off after tomorrow for vacation, and starting right back up upon my return.

Impressive progress.

To be clear- 72 hours between training- does that mean Mon chest back, then T,W off then legs or T,W,Th off?

Also-age?

Thanks man.

Example would be train Monday at 6am, Tuesday and Wednesday off, train Thursday at 6am.

29 years old.

That's pretty low frequency.  You experience DOMS typically?

I had some soreness after the first week, but nothing out of the ordinary. After my Tuesday lift this week (shoulders/arms), no usual soreness like when doing high volume.

I’m 56 with 38 years of training age.
The last 12 years I did 5/3/1 with various templates of Wendler’s. 531 worked great for the first seven years or so.
The last 5 years I really stagnated in gains and PR’s doing 531 though.  
So 11 weeks ago I started a very strict, by the book Mentzer program.
Every week I hit between two and six PRs per week.
I train ONCE every Six to seven days. Yes, I said once EVERY 6 -7 days, I just hit SIX PRs yesterday. (Calculated rep PRS)
Every single session I’m getting stronger.
The Mentzer program is right on point for me, plus my joints feel great.
Workout A =weighted Bulgarian split squats, right to an SSB Squat. 5-7 minutes rest, then deadlift right to a shrug.
6-7 days later:
Workout B- typical Mentzer upper workout.
6-7 days later workout A.
I’ve hit more pr’s  in the last 11 weeks than I have in the last 7-8 years.

Good stuff man, love to see it!!

This. The two people mentioned were juiced to the max. They also both ended up severely injured and unable to lift if I'm remembering correctly.

Interested to see how it goes for you, OP.

I appreciate the insight dudes.

I myself am a lifetime natural lifter. What has pissed me off over the years is exactly what you describe. Someone saying "this is what works, look at me, buy my pre workout and workout routine, and smash that subscribe button", while obviously being on gear.

What drew me into Mentzers training was that he clearly comes out and states he was on gear in his hayday. In another interview, that you don't need protein powder and the like, just a well balanced diet. He had explained why he believed this training style was best for natural lifters, and prescribed it to his clients. And of course I know I'm not going to look like Mentzer or Yates without high doses of juice, that's ridiculous. But if it can get me better results, I'm going to do it. The only thing I've paid for to get the info is a couple hours of my time.

I'll be back at it come Friday when I return home, along with shedding the beer/water weight from vacation.

Dr. Mike finally weighed in on this.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWQji1f7EOU

No one in here is advanced enough to not benefit from more volume.  Also, the idea that all muscles in the body will grow or get stronger and recover with the same volume/intensity is ridiculous.

The idea of dismissing one guys scientifically proven methods due to him being on gear, but not openly admitting it while accepting another guy's non-scientific methods because he is open about being on gear is also ridiculous.

I can show you what I achieved naturally and I'm 49 years old.  Body types and muscle groups within those body types vary therefore they have different needs.  I can tell you how I achieved this look at 49 years old while being natural all my life...  mixing periods of heavy low rep progressive overload on the big 3 lifts along with periods of volume...lots and lots of fucking volume and lots and lots of fucking food.

Watched the vid. I loved the part around 14:30 where he plugs his training program/app, after explaining 5 mins of downsides to HIT training. Excellent marketing.


Can't remember what week I'm at. I'm lifting regularly around 2x - 3x a week, pending on my schedule. Weight is continuing to increase, as well as reps. Arm and neck measurements have increased, while waist measurement has stayed the same, which is due to my fault on watching diet (end of summer has been busy).

Nope, I've done it successfully for years. Sometimes I'll go past failure on 4 sets of bench. No problems.

In fact, If you're not going to failure and using a spotter to push out that last rep you're not optimizing your time spent in the gym and your potential gains will suffer.

He also has a PhD in this stuff for credibility.  More than one way to do things. I posted my pic to demonstrate my results at 49 years old.  

Update since I haven't (forgot) in a while.

This is about month three of high intensity weight training.

At this point, the most I've taken off between lifts has been 5 days. normally keep it to 3-4.

Strength has continuously increased since the begining. Either by weight, or by reps with last lifts weight.

Cardio on off days still happening, either 3 or 4 days a week.

Still on 60% carbs, 25% protein, 15% fat for my cal intake.

It’s all about new stimulus. Switch from heavy weights to hypertrophy every 3-6 weeks or so. Program for your goals.

Dr Mike's Scientific Principles of Hypertrophy has some good info.  It is a good wealth of info but really some of it is more theory than anything.  There's still more useful info in there than I'll ever remember or fully grasp.  Good book.  Like any fitness stuff I wouldn't treat it like the gospel but implement stuff for a while to figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

It’s just a CNS training routine.  The one I followed way back was the DoggCrap workout.

It was seriously impressive for building size/strength but my muscular endurance was terrible.  Any WO where you go to failure is tough, physically and mentally.  Doing that every WO was hard but the hardest part was getting 2g/lb of protein/day.  The eating was a full time job.  The time you save with the shorter WO is more than eaten up by just eating.

If you want to stack mass, give it a go.  If you’re looking for just general fitness I’d look elsewhere.

I've heard of this referenced as "High Density" training too...google that.  

Plenty of research out there on this, papers, doctors, experts with lots of experience to couple the anicdotal experience of people.  

From the little research I read on this my takaway was that this isn't 100% as effective as more focused, longer training sessions, but it's close enough in end results that the benefits are very much worth it for some people.  The main benefits I took away was that this is a far more time effective manner of weight lifting than traditional training sessions.  The other benefit was lower total CNS stress and cortizol build up meaning less recovery stress on the body.

Dr. Mike is a gold mine of digestible information.  He's not the average PHD that talks above his audience.  He has that rare gift to be able to break down the information with language his audience can understand.

Yep