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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:37:57 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Since the Javelin Missile has been so deadly with a 93% reported success rate. Does this make tanks obsolete moving forward? Ukraine didn’t have many tanks and due to this missile, has given them a huge edge. Javelins appear to be plentiful and cheap compared to outfitting your army with tanks. I wouldn’t want to be in a tank facing an adversary that has tons of javelins. The sheer amount of Russian tanks destroyed is amazing. Their tanks don’t seem to an advantage and they are huge magnets. Am I wrong? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:39:38 PM EDT
[#2]
How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks?
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:41:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Shouldn’t all American tanks be rocking an awesome “TROPHY” ANTI-ATGM system?
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:41:11 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? With Javelins? 
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:41:54 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With Javelins? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? With Javelins? Up-armored Javelins
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:42:39 PM EDT
[#6]
 Israeli Rafael Trophy APS Active Protection System tested on Bradley hull IFV September 2018 |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:43:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: With Javelins? 
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:43:44 PM EDT
[#8]
I wouldn't say obsolete... yes I would. Missiles change the battlefield.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:44:23 PM EDT
[#9]
I think tanks will have automated missile defense systems soon. At least the good ones will.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:46:27 PM EDT
[#10]
No, Russia just sucks at war and doesn't support their armor with infantry.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:47:28 PM EDT
[#11]
No it hasn't.
First off, you have to assume that the enemy has javelins, or an equivalent missile. And many potential enemies won't have them in significant numbers. And then you have to assume that technology and tactics aren't going to be developed to deal with the threat. That being said, it does mean that militaries will have to take the threat seriously. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:47:41 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think tanks will have automated missile defense systems soon. At least the good ones will. They already do, the Russian's stuff just sucks or never worked in the first place. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:49:01 PM EDT
[#13]
Two things.
Tanks, USED PROPERLY are not going anywhere. See Ukraine for an example of what NOT to do. Anti-Armor missile teams have a shitty retirement plan.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:49:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think tanks will have automated missile defense systems soon. At least the good ones will. Pretty sure actual 1st world military tanks comes with advanced anti missile stystems already. Israeli Rafael Trophy APS Active Protection System tested on Bradley hull IFV September 2018 So I guess hard penetrator kinetic rounds are still the king of the battle field. Or drone laser guided artillery rounds :/ |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:50:07 PM EDT
[#15]
Between small portable missile systems and small portable drone systems, I can see a big shake up in the role(s) armor and vehicle systems play in future combat spaces
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:50:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Tanks are obsolete. Now on the modern battlefield all you need is a guy with DJI drone to find you a tank and happy hunting from 2 miles away.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:52:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Tanks are an important part of combined arms. When used properly. Russia is historically known for not using them properly.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:55:08 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Up-armored Javelins Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? With Javelins? Up-armored Javelins Super Javelins!
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:56:18 PM EDT
[#19]
Russia has the Kornet antitank missile.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:56:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Since the Javelin Missile has been so deadly with a 93% reported success rate. Does this make tanks obsolete moving forward? Ukraine didn’t have many tanks and due to this missile, has given them a huge edge. Javelins appear to be plentiful and cheap compared to outfitting your army with tanks. I wouldn’t want to be in a tank facing an adversary that has tons of javelins. The sheer amount of Russian tanks destroyed is amazing. Their tanks don’t seem to an advantage and they are huge magnets. Am I wrong? I think there will always be a place for tanks, though their days of importance are waning. They'll still have a place with technologically inferior forces with limited countermeasures. Even against a peer enemy, there will still be a place if you can suppress enemy countermeasures reliably. Those active protection systems might extend their relevance, but not long term. If a drone that costs 25k can destroy a million dollar tank, the writing is on the wall. It looks like drones are the next big thing in ground warfare. I'd expect for drone sections to be part of the battalion structure in the near future. They can provide good reconnaissance, strike ground targets, and possibly even destroy entrenched positions. Imagine a small drone with a C4 charge flying low at night and right into a entrenched position, exploding on the inside for maximum effect. A target that small and possibly many targets would be hard to counter for even a modern force. Electronic jammers would probably be a good counter for them if they required control from an enemy operator. The lessons of history in warfare are still true. Don't get stuck trying to win wars of the past, prepare for winning the wars of the future. Japan learned this lesson too late in WWII by investing too much in battleships when aircraft and carriers were the future. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 5:57:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Were Sagger missiles any good?
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:01:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't say obsolete... yes I would. Missiles change the battlefield. How are you going to execute a combined arms breach without a tank? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:02:15 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? I don't know that you can breach enemy defenses with tanks knowing there are Javelins, NLAWS, Matadors, etc. I personally think tanks are going the way of the battleship as tactics continue to favor special forces tactics. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:04:14 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think there will always be a place for tanks, though their days of importance are waning. They'll still have a place with technologically inferior forces with limited countermeasures. Even against a peer enemy, there will still be a place if you can suppress enemy countermeasures reliably. Those active protection systems might extend their relevance, but not long term. If a drone that costs 25k can destroy a million dollar tank, the writing is on the wall. It looks like drones are the next big thing in ground warfare. I'd expect for drone sections to be part of the battalion structure in the near future. They can provide good reconnaissance, strike ground targets, and possibly even destroy entrenched positions. Imagine a small drone with a C4 charge flying low at night and right into a entrenched position, exploding on the inside for maximum effect. A target that small and possibly many targets would be hard to counter for even a modern force. Electronic jammers would probably be a good counter for them if they required control from an enemy operator. The lessons of history in warfare are still true. Don't get stuck trying to win wars of the past, prepare for winning the wars of the future. Japan learned this lesson too late in WWII by investing too much in battleships when aircraft and carriers were the future. Facial recognition combined with drones is some scary stuff, but seems inevitable. Why spend the time and money to kill 1000s of conscripts when you can just kill the generals? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:05:31 PM EDT
[#25]
Take an Abrams chassis and mount a C-Ram on it. Problem solved.
Or go the Russian way and cover the tanks with troops. They’ll make squishy armor in a pinch. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:06:26 PM EDT
[#26]
I sure wouldn't choose tank crew as a career.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:07:03 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Facial recognition combined with drones is some scary stuff, but seems inevitable. Why spend the time and money to kill 1000s of conscripts when you can just kill the generals? Because someone will replace the general. A big part of warfare is taking ground/infrastructure/airfields/etc. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:07:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Are drone tanks a thing yet? Seems like they might be able to pack a shitload of technology and artillery into the cabins currently occupied by humans.
....bring us closer to terminators/judgement day. But if we have the flying in the sky, why not rolling on the ground. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:09:29 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are drone tanks a thing yet? Seems like they might be able to pack a shitload of technology and artillery into the cabins currently occupied by humans. ....bring us closer to terminators/judgement day. But if we have the flying in the sky, why not rolling on the ground. Drone tanks don't make that much sense. You need people around to fix things and act as support. As soon as a drone tank throws tracks it's deadlined. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:11:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know that you can breach enemy defenses with tanks knowing there are Javelins, NLAWS, Matadors, etc. I personally think tanks are going the way of the battleship as tactics continue to favor special forces tactics. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? I don't know that you can breach enemy defenses with tanks knowing there are Javelins, NLAWS, Matadors, etc. I personally think tanks are going the way of the battleship as tactics continue to favor special forces tactics. Special forces struggle to hold ground. If you can’t capitalize on their success what’s the point? Active protection systems kill direct attack munitions and they are expanding that to top attack. Soon tanks operated by rich nations will be harder to kill than in 2000. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:12:36 PM EDT
[#31]
no... I just think the Russians don't know how to fight.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:12:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Armor is mobility.
No Armor…very limited mobility. ATGMs are not new. Nothing has changed. Most of the reports from Ukraine are nonsense. Poor tactics by tankers are not the same as tanks being obsolete. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:12:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know that you can breach enemy defenses with tanks knowing there are Javelins, NLAWS, Matadors, etc. I personally think tanks are going the way of the battleship as tactics continue to favor special forces tactics. Define special forces tactics. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:13:07 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to breach enemy prepared defenses without tanks? How are you going to do it with all your tanks destroyed? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:13:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't know that you can breach enemy defenses with tanks knowing there are Javelins, NLAWS, Matadors, etc. I personally think tanks are going the way of the battleship as tactics continue to favor special forces tactics. When competent CAS turns the missile operators into pink mist, then tanks are GTG. Add in some aimed artillery / mortars and those missile operators will be long gone. Add in reactive armor that works... But all the Armchair generals will say "Oh, we are all EXPERTS now, since we watched UKR defeat Russia from our Lazybois and know what to do!!!" LMFAO, go drink another beer and mow your lawn. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:13:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to do it with all your tanks destroyed? With good combined arms tactics they won't be. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:16:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to do it with all your tanks destroyed? That’s unlikely. Even Russia, with their terrible tactics and lack of functioning active protection systems, have only lost something like 1 in 6 tanks destroyed, mostly by missiles that the latest Abrams would shoot down without asking the crew first. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:18:07 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Facial recognition combined with drones is some scary stuff, but seems inevitable. Why spend the time and money to kill 1000s of conscripts when you can just kill the generals? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I think there will always be a place for tanks, though their days of importance are waning. They'll still have a place with technologically inferior forces with limited countermeasures. Even against a peer enemy, there will still be a place if you can suppress enemy countermeasures reliably. Those active protection systems might extend their relevance, but not long term. If a drone that costs 25k can destroy a million dollar tank, the writing is on the wall. It looks like drones are the next big thing in ground warfare. I'd expect for drone sections to be part of the battalion structure in the near future. They can provide good reconnaissance, strike ground targets, and possibly even destroy entrenched positions. Imagine a small drone with a C4 charge flying low at night and right into a entrenched position, exploding on the inside for maximum effect. A target that small and possibly many targets would be hard to counter for even a modern force. Electronic jammers would probably be a good counter for them if they required control from an enemy operator. The lessons of history in warfare are still true. Don't get stuck trying to win wars of the past, prepare for winning the wars of the future. Japan learned this lesson too late in WWII by investing too much in battleships when aircraft and carriers were the future. Facial recognition combined with drones is some scary stuff, but seems inevitable. Why spend the time and money to kill 1000s of conscripts when you can just kill the generals? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:18:22 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tanks are obsolete. Now on the modern battlefield all you need is a guy with DJI drone to find you a tank and happy hunting from 2 miles away. Do you know what a drone is? An easily targeted slow as hell missile. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:26:23 PM EDT
[#40]
Are we regressing to horse and mule or are soldiers going to walk everywhere?
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:30:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you know what a drone is? An easily targeted slow as hell missile. Maybe not so easy. Many AA missiles still use heat tracking for guidance and have minimum distances. The more advanced missiles might also not be cost effective to shoot down cheap drones. Drones that are powered by batteries could be hard to track. They could sneak near the ground while using cover (trees, buildings, terrain) then appear from a vulnerable angle and conduct their attack. If drones like this can be produced cheaply in numbers, it would be a game changer. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:31:47 PM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:31:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe not so easy. Many AA missiles still use heat tracking for guidance and have minimum distances. The more advanced missiles might also not be cost effective to shoot down cheap drones. Drones that are powered by batteries could be hard to track. They could sneak near the ground while using cover (trees, buildings, terrain) then appear from a vulnerable angle and conduct their attack. If drones like this can be produced cheaply in numbers, it would be a game changer. Until they encounter electronic warfare equipment or laser CUAS or any number of other things that are emerging. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:33:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Tanks? The future challenge is going to be recruiting fuel truck drivers.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:33:36 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until they encounter electronic warfare equipment or laser CUAS or any number of other things that are emerging. Yeah, love the "Oh my DJI thingy works great". Until it's jammed and crashes. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:40:23 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until they encounter electronic warfare equipment or laser CUAS or any number of other things that are emerging. Employ several drones. If you lose one or two that's OK. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:40:48 PM EDT
[#47]
Another "are tanks obsolete" thread?
Read some history. https://www.historynet.com/the-arab-israeli-war-of-1973-honor-oil-and-blood/ |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:42:30 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Until they encounter electronic warfare equipment or laser CUAS or any number of other things that are emerging. If they're fielded in time and in enough numbers. That might also be countered if the drones aren't hardened against them. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It will probably come down to who has the best R&D, manufacturing, or otherwise invests them most in those systems. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:44:07 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Employ several drones. If you lose one or two that's OK. And when the sky gets turned into a microwave and they are all dried? What then? |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 6:44:55 PM EDT
[#50]
I predict the emergence of drones designed to hunt and kill drone operators. Possibly autonomously.
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