HVAC install- didn't install new refrigerant lines- problems?

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HVAC install- didn't install new refrigerant lines- problems?

Posted: 12/2/2018 8:09:29 PM EDT

I recently upgraded my old HVAC system. I was told during quotes they would change my old refrigerant line (1/4"?) to a larger 3/8" line. Ended up not happening because they couldn't find a good way to drop the line down from the roof to the 1st floor where my blower/coils are. My compressor is roof top (2nd story).

system is a 14 SEER, 15.5 accounting for the ECM blower. Should I be concerned about using the older/thinner line? Will it cause a drop in efficiency?

And lastly, the quote included the new refrigerant line install- should I ask for money back since they didn't end up doing it? Thanks all.

Posted: 12/2/2018 8:16:22 PM EDT

[#1]

Lots of factors involved, but it really boils down to what the manufacturer of the equipment said on using the 1/4" liquid line.

And yes, you should get a discount since they didn't run the lineset.

Posted: 12/2/2018 8:49:14 PM EDT

[#2]

If you paid for something they didn't do/install, they should reimburse you for it.

Having said that, we've lived here for 33 years. After 12 years the original heat pump (Lennox) gave up with holes in the inside and outside coils. We got a bigger Carrier unit installed 21 years ago. They used the original lines. Never been an issue for us. Probably fail now that I've mentioned it.

Posted: 12/2/2018 9:41:10 PM EDT

[#3]

Really depends on manufacturers specs, there really isnt such a thing of rule of thumb...depends entirely on the system. If the system required 3/8" liquid line and they opted out of that due to pure laziness, kept the 1/4" then that's definetly a issue. Also I have seen this done where the old filter drier is left installed as well. Have them do it right.

Posted: 12/2/2018 9:58:33 PM EDT

[#4]

If it makes a difference, the AC unit is a Lennox 13ACXNAC.

I think dropping the new line would've required ripping out some dry wall, and that's why they didn't do it. I'll call them tomorrow and ask about a partial refund- any idea how much would be a fair amount?

Posted: 12/2/2018 10:04:15 PM EDT

[#5]

Quote History

Quoted:
If it makes a difference, the AC unit is a Lennox 13ACXNAC.

I think dropping the new line would've required ripping out some dry wall, and that's why they didn't do it. I'll call them tomorrow and ask about a partial refund- any idea how much would be a fair amount?

View Quote

As long as the superheat is good, and your head isn’t too high, I wouldn’t worry about it. Run it.

If the manufacture calls for 3/8 liquid line, there should be a 3/8 liquid line. If it’s too small, your head can be too high, poor superheat, valve starving, condenser not at proper capacity. Think of shitting through a straw. Your condenser will be more flooded, not properly condensing, back logged liquid, high head, restricting the flow of liquid to the tx. Compressor pumping harder, etc. but as I said, if your system has good numbers, run it.
Get a refund and make sure warranty coverage is still there with their install not being correct to what Lennox calls for.

Posted: 12/3/2018 9:20:31 AM EDT

[#6]

Have them correct it with proper liquid line, make sure suction line is also correct size, the install manual calls for 3/8 suction. They took a major shortcut and need not only correct it, but they should offer an written extension of a labor warranty to protect you. Not sure if this was the low bidder on your job, but that shortcut saved them a few hundred dollars just in the line set.
Also, make sure the units get registered, otherwise you only get five year parts.

Posted: 12/3/2018 2:47:17 PM EDT

[#7]

Quote History

Quoted:
Have them correct it with proper liquid line, make sure suction line is also correct size, the install manual calls for 3/8 suction. They took a major shortcut and need not only correct it, but they should offer an written extension of a labor warranty to protect you. Not sure if this was the low bidder on your job, but that shortcut saved them a few hundred dollars just in the line set.
Also, make sure the units get registered, otherwise you only get five year parts.

View Quote

Typical residential systems do not have any kind of accumulator in them to hold liquid refrigerant.

They rely on the capacity of the liquid line (both length and diameter).

Posted: 12/3/2018 9:58:35 PM EDT

[#8]

Quote History

Quoted:

Typical residential systems do not have any kind of accumulator in them to hold liquid refrigerant.

They rely on the capacity of the liquid line (both length and diameter).

View Quote

How did we get on track of accumulators?
If the suction line is smaller, you have reduced capacity, and can make the compressor have high discharge temps which will lead to failure in a shorter time.

The lines should be the size the manu calls for. But again, if the superheat is good, temps and pressures are good, it’ll be fine. The major thing is that AND the warranty coverage.

Posted: 12/4/2018 1:36:12 PM EDT

[#9]

Quote History

Quoted:

How did we get on track of accumulators?
If the suction line is smaller, you have reduced capacity, and can make the compressor have high discharge temps which will lead to failure in a shorter time.

The lines should be the size the manu calls for. But again, if the superheat is good, temps and pressures are good, it’ll be fine. The major thing is that AND the warranty coverage.

View Quote

The liquid line is an accumulator substitute.
If the line is undersized it causes a host of other problems.

Posted: 12/4/2018 2:04:22 PM EDT

[#10]

If they have deviated from what Lennox has printed in their manual, they had to get a letter from their engineering department authorizing tne deviation.

Let me pull up the install guide for that model and I’ll let you know.

Posted: 12/4/2018 2:07:47 PM EDT

[#11]

@NightHawkIX

What tonnage is the condenser?

Posted: 12/4/2018 2:20:11 PM EDT

[#12]

Might not matter.

Per my Lennox rep, he does not know of any systems they have where applications will authorize a 1/4” liquid line.

I only know of one, Rheem.

Posted: 12/4/2018 2:38:16 PM EDT

[#13]

Quote History

Quoted:
@NightHawkIX

What tonnage is the condenser?

View Quote

2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

Posted: 12/4/2018 9:13:23 PM EDT

[#14]

Quote History

Quoted:
2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
@NightHawkIX

What tonnage is the condenser?

2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

Failure to size lines correctly is a BIG mistake.

Posted: 12/4/2018 10:12:14 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
@NightHawkIX

What tonnage is the condenser?

2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

Just as an FYI, if the do NOT get that letter from Lennox's applications division authorizing that lineset your warranty - as far as Lennox is concerned - will probably be null and void.

Depending on the laws of your state the contractor may still be on the hook, but I'd verify that.

Oh, and not saying I know anything about the Costco program (I am NOT a Costco contractor, but I have a good relationship with my Lennox rep) if you have an issue and talk to your Costco about it...

Posted: 12/4/2018 11:08:56 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
2.5Ton.

I called in asking for a written warranty guarantee- they said they'd send one to me, so we'll see.. [color=#0000ff]Billing department seems hesitant to refund me any amount though.[/color]

And as far as I can tell, these guys aren't cut rate. I used them through the Costco referral program (15% back @ Costco) and they seem fairly reputable. On time, and clean work as far as I can tell.

View Quote

You payed for parts that didn't get installed. There's no hesitation. They defaulted on the contract you signed. And they reused your old undersized line set. They need to comeback and finish the job, not give you a refund.

Posted: 12/5/2018 6:52:06 AM EDT

[#17]

Quote History

Quoted:

The liquid line is an accumulator substitute.
If the line is undersized it causes a host of other problems.

View Quote

I’ve already gone through this here and you jump in with accumulators. A accumulator prevents liquid refrigerant from hitting the suction of the compressor... Get your terminology correct.

Posted: 12/6/2018 1:52:15 PM EDT

[#18]

~~got a written confirmation from Lennox Consumer Affairs/Warranty department telling me that since it was done by a licensed contractor, using the thinner lines does not void my warranty.~~

Posted: 12/6/2018 2:32:08 PM EDT

[#19]

Posted: 12/6/2018 3:18:10 PM EDT

[#20]

I spoke too freaking soon- service rep I talked to went and talked to someone actually in the know, called me back, and said NEVERMIND- this could void your warranty. Have your installer contact our applications division.

Posted: 12/9/2018 12:28:07 AM EDT

[#21]

1/4” line has been marginal to too small since r22, im assuming you got a newer refrigerant than that.

So its most likely undersized and will not work efficiently or at capacity. Is that what you thought you were paying for?

Even if it was OK, did the company flush the lines and pull a long deep vacuum on them to prep for the newer refrigerant? I’d like to know the reefer that was in the old system and the reefer that’s in the new system.

Posted: 12/11/2018 9:26:52 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:

I’ve already gone through this here and you jump in with accumulators. A accumulator prevents liquid refrigerant from hitting the suction of the compressor... Get your terminology correct.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

The liquid line is an accumulator substitute.
If the line is undersized it causes a host of other problems.

I’ve already gone through this here and you jump in with accumulators. A accumulator prevents liquid refrigerant from hitting the suction of the compressor... Get your terminology correct.

An accumulator traps liquid on the high side when the compressor runs at variable speed (as in a car) were thay are still used.

Larger commercial and industrial cooling systems use a liquid accumulator and then meter from IT tinto the evaporator.

Very sophisticated systems us a level switch in the accumulator to cycle the compressor. A TXV then throttles the liquid into the evaporator on demand to maintain ITS temperature.

Very sophisticated systems use electric control over the TXV.

Posted: 12/12/2018 5:44:24 AM EDT

[#23]

Quote History

Quoted:

An accumulator traps liquid on the high side when the compressor runs at variable speed (as in a car) were thay are still used.

Larger commercial and industrial cooling systems use a liquid accumulator and then meter from IT tinto the evaporator.

Very sophisticated systems us a level switch in the accumulator to cycle the compressor. A TXV then throttles the liquid into the evaporator on demand to maintain ITS temperature.

Very sophisticated systems use electric control over the TXV.

View Quote

Receiver is what your talking about.. I deal with rack systems with multiple suction accumulators, a receiver, 4-8 compressors with digital unloaders, liquid injection (demand cooling), VFD compressors, heat reclaim, split/full condensers with floating heads, subcoolers ran off another rack EEXV with standalone valve controllers controlled by the main controller for the entire system. That controller wether it’s danfoss, Emerson, comtrol, Novar, etc, controlling all of said above. I’ve never seen a receiver level switch operate a compressor. Always suction pressure will dictate what compressor should be running. Typical systems you mention will either cycle the multiple compressors depending on the load that is sensed by the controller or is just a single banger ( single compressor condensing unit) that runs off the LPC, if it is a pump down system with a LLS. All while being protected by the HPC and oil failure controllers.
The terminology used between hvac techs and automotive AC is different. Just as the car AC’s oil is stored in the condenser not the compressor, different ball game, same process, different terms used.

Posted: 12/12/2018 6:23:56 PM EDT

[#24]

So OP, when are they coming to replace the line set?

Posted: 12/12/2018 6:54:25 PM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:
So OP, when are they coming to replace the line set?

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They're not. They promised to furnish a letter from Lennox saying the warranty is still valid. Everytime I ask for a refund for the job not done, they're silent. I'm about to call Costco and have them arbitrate.

Posted: 12/12/2018 8:04:55 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
They're not. They promised to furnish a letter from Lennox saying the warranty is still valid. Everytime I ask for a refund for the job not done, they're silent. I'm about to call Costco and have them arbitrate.

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I would just call Costco at this point. They've fooled around enough at this point.

Posted: 12/12/2018 9:17:04 PM EDT

[#27]

At this point, I'd either call them back and tell them you're getting in touch with Costco and see what they do, OR just go straight to Costco.

It all depends on if you want to give them one last chance.

Posted: 12/14/2018 1:44:51 AM EDT

[#28]

Any idea how much of a refund to request?

I'm getting a "we didn't install the new lines, but we did have to flush your old lines- so no refund is due." Still "working on getting a letter from Lennox about warranty."

I'm calling Costco tomorrow, but would like a better idea of what I ought to be owed. (Total install for a 70,000 BTU, 2.5T 15.5 SEER system was $6300)

Posted: 12/14/2018 9:41:49 AM EDT

[#29]

I'd say somewhere in the $100 range for just the 3/8" line.

ETA: I'd be sure to get the letter from Lennox in hand before they give you the refund. Based on them trying the line of blowing the lineset out (if they were'nt changing the big line they would have had to blow it out anyway

) I'd go straight to Costco.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - HVAC install- didn't install new refrigerant lines- problems?

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