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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:10:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I’ll be glad to see it go.
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:11:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I’ll be glad to see it go. Leaded gas is probably not a real problem. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:12:01 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I’ll be glad to see it go. Assuming it’s actually good for all the engines long term and doesn’t cost more. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:16:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Leaded gas is probably not a real problem. We know that leaded gas is terrible. The question is whether avgas, which is the leading source of airborne lead, is a health risk. People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:17:34 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Assuming it’s actually good for all the engines long term and doesn’t cost more. If the MTBO and price aren’t substantially worse and it doesn’t cause an increase in engine failure then good riddance. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:24:08 PM EDT
[#6]
Leaded gas is best gas. If you really want to find gas with lead in it, think back to the good old days with 115/145.
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:36:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Isn't the shit they are boosting the octane with, like a million times worse than lead?
Sure the combustion products are fine but fuel tanks leak, and MTBE / Benzine like shit will give you a third (cancerous) testis. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:36:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. No they don’t |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:38:26 PM EDT
[#9]
PPL that don't like leaded gas probably still wear masks.
I run leaded in all my choppers Hi-compression or not and old 390 ford, screw Y'all |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:38:54 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We know that leaded gas is terrible. The question is whether avgas, which is the leading source of airborne lead, is a health risk. People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Leaded gas is probably not a real problem. We know that leaded gas is terrible. The question is whether avgas, which is the leading source of airborne lead, is a health risk. People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. Fun fact: Lead was not removed from gas because it's unhealthy. It was removed from gas because it was incompatible with catalytic converters. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:39:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Leaded gas is best gas. If you really want to find gas with lead in it, think back to the good old days with 115/145. Agreed. I like the smell. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:42:09 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn't the shit they are boosting the octane with, like a million times worse than lead? Sure the combustion products are fine but fuel tanks leak, and MTBE / Benzine like shit will give you a third (cancerous) testis. Lead isn't there to boost the octane. It helps prevent detonation. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:42:57 PM EDT
[#13]
It will be interesting to see how the transition works...or doesn't.
100LL is the standard fuel for GA aircraft. Will airports put up another tank/pump for unleaded avgas? For how long? Decades? |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:43:30 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:46:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lead isn't there to boost the octane. It helps prevent detonation. Ummmm. Octane ratings are a rating of a fuels resistance to detonation. And actually it’s not in aviation fuel for either reason. For some reason I don’t fully understand the valves of aircraft engines are particularly sensitive and leaded fuel is less harsh on them. But hey here’s to hoping opposed piston engines work out soon. Problem solved. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:47:26 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fun fact: Lead was not removed from gas because it's unhealthy. It was removed from gas because it was incompatible with catalytic converters. This is true, but leaded gas is very bad for peoples health. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:48:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will be interesting to see how the transition works...or doesn't. 100LL is the standard fuel for GA aircraft. Will airports put up another tank/pump for unleaded avgas? For how long? Decades? My guess: once unleaded is proven in legacy applications EPA will mandate a phased withdrawal of leaded fuel from the market. Could be done in a decade. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:56:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lead isn't there to boost the octane. It helps prevent detonation. The lead is also a lubricant. If the epa does away with 100ll a lot of older airplanes will end in the scrap pile. With as expensive as aviation is already, older airplanes are only way many can fly. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:58:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ummmm. Octane ratings are a rating of a fuels resistance to detonation. And actually it’s not in aviation fuel for either reason. For some reason I don’t fully understand the valves of aircraft engines are particularly sensitive and leaded fuel is less harsh on them. But hey here’s to hoping opposed piston engines work out soon. Problem solved. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lead isn't there to boost the octane. It helps prevent detonation. Ummmm. Octane ratings are a rating of a fuels resistance to detonation. And actually it’s not in aviation fuel for either reason. For some reason I don’t fully understand the valves of aircraft engines are particularly sensitive and leaded fuel is less harsh on them. But hey here’s to hoping opposed piston engines work out soon. Problem solved. Lead in gas is an anti-detonation agent. That is the reason why it's still in avgas. Leaded gas was available in a variety of octane ratings. Higher octane is obviously less prone to detonation, but also takes more heat/compression to burn efficiently. Lead prevents detonation without the need for higher octane. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 6:59:35 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The lead is also a lubricant. If the epa does away with 100ll a lot of older airplanes will end in the scrap pile. With as expensive as aviation is already, older airplanes are only way many can fly. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lead isn't there to boost the octane. It helps prevent detonation. The lead is also a lubricant. If the epa does away with 100ll a lot of older airplanes will end in the scrap pile. With as expensive as aviation is already, older airplanes are only way many can fly. My Champ has an STC to run autogas. I've never done it for that reason. And it stinks. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:16:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lead in gas is an anti-detonation agent. That is the reason why it's still in avgas. Leaded gas was available in a variety of octane ratings. Higher octane is obviously less prone to detonation, but also takes more heat/compression to burn efficiently. Lead prevents detonation without the need for higher octane. Lead increases octane rating so I’m not sure how you’re talking about needing more or less octane. The rating is based on a comparison of the fuel to a mixture of octane and heptane. Above 90 octane or so, lead or small quantities of specific aromatics added to be added to increase octane rating. Lead does so without the reduction in energy density or concerns about corrosion to gaskets and lines that can some with other additives. I looked up why aircraft like leaded fuel, apparently it has a cooling effect on the valves of an air cooled engine and that’s hard to replace with other formulations. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:17:45 PM EDT
[#22]
About time. FAA has drug this out long enough.
Hopefully the spool up on production won't take another 13 years. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:22:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It will be interesting to see how the transition works...or doesn't. 100LL is the standard fuel for GA aircraft. Will airports put up another tank/pump for unleaded avgas? For how long? Decades? Depends on the FBO's and airports. Each airport is it's own bureaucracy. When the EPA forces a complete shutdown of 100LL, only that will finalize the transition. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:26:01 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on the FBO's and airports. Each airport is it's own bureaucracy. When the EPA forces a complete shutdown of 100LL, only that will finalize the transition. With a fair election Trump will win in 2024 and the EPA will be neutered along with most federal agencies. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:27:47 PM EDT
[#25]
I would bet a nickel that this could reduce the cost of avgas in the long run.
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:40:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We know that leaded gas is terrible. Incorrect. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 7:42:04 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Incorrect. How about this. Leaded gas is great at doing gas things but it also does lead things which is bad. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 8:01:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lead increases octane rating so I’m not sure how you’re talking about needing more or less octane. The rating is based on a comparison of the fuel to a mixture of octane and heptane. Above 90 octane or so, lead or small quantities of specific aromatics added to be added to increase octane rating. Lead does so without the reduction in energy density or concerns about corrosion to gaskets and lines that can some with other additives. I looked up why aircraft like leaded fuel, apparently it has a cooling effect on the valves of an air cooled engine and that’s hard to replace with other formulations. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Lead in gas is an anti-detonation agent. That is the reason why it's still in avgas. Leaded gas was available in a variety of octane ratings. Higher octane is obviously less prone to detonation, but also takes more heat/compression to burn efficiently. Lead prevents detonation without the need for higher octane. Lead increases octane rating so I’m not sure how you’re talking about needing more or less octane. The rating is based on a comparison of the fuel to a mixture of octane and heptane. Above 90 octane or so, lead or small quantities of specific aromatics added to be added to increase octane rating. Lead does so without the reduction in energy density or concerns about corrosion to gaskets and lines that can some with other additives. I looked up why aircraft like leaded fuel, apparently it has a cooling effect on the valves of an air cooled engine and that’s hard to replace with other formulations. Leaded aviation gasoline used to come with octane ratings from 80 to 115. If it was just about raising the octane, there would never have been 80 octane leaded aviation gas. Lower compression engines can't burn high octane gas, but detonation is still a huge issue for aircraft because of higher performance demands and operating envelope. That's why there was lead in low octane gas. While lead does raise the octane rating, it acts in other ways to reduce detonation. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 8:09:17 PM EDT
[#29]
I doubt that AvGas contributes much to lead pollution in general, but I think the unleaded AvGas will be great for valves, pistons, oil and spark plugs.
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Posted: 9/1/2022 8:54:05 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Leaded aviation gasoline used to come with octane ratings from 80 to 115. If it was just about raising the octane, there would never have been 80 octane leaded aviation gas. Lower compression engines can't burn high octane gas, but detonation is still a huge issue for aircraft because of higher performance demands and operating envelope. That's why there was lead in low octane gas. While lead does raise the octane rating, it acts in other ways to reduce detonation. Octane rating is literally the measure of a fuels propensity to resist detonation. There isn’t a secret way that it reduces detonation that isn’t reflected in its rating. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:04:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I’ll be glad to see it go. 
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:12:18 PM EDT
[#32]
How many people in the USA have died as a result of airborne lead poisoning in the last 50 years ?
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:17:12 PM EDT
[#33]
The Romans ate lead and still ruled the world for centuries.
We took the lead out of gas and paint because it made kids dumb. Look around you, do they seem any smarter now? |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:18:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many people in the USA have died as a result of airborne lead poisoning in the last 50 years ? Hard to say. It did lower IQs and cause crime though. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:26:02 PM EDT
[#35]
So I'll be buying 100NL now?
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:26:48 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Octane rating is literally the measure of a fuels propensity to resist detonation. There isn’t a secret way that it reduces detonation that isn’t reflected in its rating. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Leaded aviation gasoline used to come with octane ratings from 80 to 115. If it was just about raising the octane, there would never have been 80 octane leaded aviation gas. Lower compression engines can't burn high octane gas, but detonation is still a huge issue for aircraft because of higher performance demands and operating envelope. That's why there was lead in low octane gas. While lead does raise the octane rating, it acts in other ways to reduce detonation. Octane rating is literally the measure of a fuels propensity to resist detonation. There isn’t a secret way that it reduces detonation that isn’t reflected in its rating. Okay. Why did they put it in low octane fuel? |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:29:48 PM EDT
[#37]
I always thought it was guide and seat friendly.
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:30:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Octane rating is literally the measure of a fuels propensity to resist detonation. There isn’t a secret way that it reduces detonation that isn’t reflected in its rating. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Leaded aviation gasoline used to come with octane ratings from 80 to 115. If it was just about raising the octane, there would never have been 80 octane leaded aviation gas. Lower compression engines can't burn high octane gas, but detonation is still a huge issue for aircraft because of higher performance demands and operating envelope. That's why there was lead in low octane gas. While lead does raise the octane rating, it acts in other ways to reduce detonation. Octane rating is literally the measure of a fuels propensity to resist detonation. There isn’t a secret way that it reduces detonation that isn’t reflected in its rating. Exactly this. In a gasoline engine normal combustion is a deflagration (burn). Detonation (explosion) is abnormal and damaging. Octane rating is a measure of a fuel's resistance to detonating before it has a chance to deflagrate. Octane rating says nothing about a gasoline's ability to deflagrate--other properties determine that. edit: Fun titbit....octane rating is determined by way of special variable compression test engines. All they're for is measuring octane rating. 
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:31:05 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Leaded gas is probably not a real problem. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I'll be glad to see it go. Leaded gas is probably not a real problem.  |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:34:17 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay. Why did they put it in low octane fuel? 80 octane leaded gasoline without the lead would have an octane rating less than 80. Maybe 60 (a guess) and therefore prone to detonation in engines that require at least 80 octane. Also, lead has lubricity properties. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:37:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How about this. Leaded gas is great at doing gas things but it also does lead things which is bad. I have plenty of time flying a GA aircraft and being around them. I may keel over and die tonig....................... |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:38:01 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, the EPA will move in on leaded avgas soon. I'll be glad to see it go. Leaded gas is probably not a real problem. Maximum .This logic brought to you by leaded gas. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:41:02 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We know that leaded gas is terrible. The question is whether avgas, which is the leading source of airborne lead, is a health risk. People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. Any proof of this? Even when I worked in a fairly lead exposed environment I never raised my blood lead levels. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:42:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Any proof of this? Even when I worked in a fairly lead exposed environment I never raised my blood lead levels. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We know that leaded gas is terrible. The question is whether avgas, which is the leading source of airborne lead, is a health risk. People who love and work near GA airfields have higher concentrations of lead in their bodies and there is no safe level of lead exposure. Any proof of this? Even when I worked in a fairly lead exposed environment I never raised my blood lead levels. Blood level testing is a joke. Try a brain tissue biopsy if you want a real number. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:43:55 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The lead is also a lubricant. If the epa does away with 100ll a lot of older airplanes will end in the scrap pile. With as expensive as aviation is already, older airplanes are only way many can fly. The same with sulfur in diesel fuel. The epa looks at it as forced obsolescence. They see this as a win. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:46:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would bet a nickel that this could reduce the cost of avgas in the long run. It's possible. It's extremely expensive to provide 100LL. Tanker trucks have to be dedicated to it, and I don't think they can even be cleaned to transport regular gas. For everything else, there is an extensive cleaning process to make sure mogas is not contaminated with lead. The only advantage is that all the stuff that's needed has already been bought. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:47:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Blood level testing is a joke. Try a brain tissue biopsy if you want a real number. Osha requires blood testing in battery plants and not a brain biopsy any idea why? |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:50:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Ok. so they have a fuel that might work. Are engine manufacturers going to certify it and issue a STC?
Don't think so. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 9:53:33 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I always thought it was guide and seat friendly. This is true. Unleaded fuel is rough on the unhardened valve seats of old engines. |
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Posted: 9/1/2022 10:00:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Osha requires blood testing in battery plants and not a brain biopsy any idea why? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Blood level testing is a joke. Try a brain tissue biopsy if you want a real number. Osha requires blood testing in battery plants and not a brain biopsy any idea why? Because they don't actually care about what happens to you anyway and a brain biopsy would kill you? |
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