Foxtrot08 makes an oil thread! (Page 1 of 160)
Posted: 5/13/2024 4:07:00 PM EDT
Alright... I'm actually going to make an oil thread on GD for this one. Motor Oil & Fuel Additives: Just a WASTE of MONEY? Now, Lake Speed Jr. does get kind of long winded in this video, at nearly 30 minutes long. And does get a bit technical with the used oil analysis. But, we share the same credentials, being we are both CLS or 'lubricant engineers' so to speak. I come from the distributor / marketer side of the world, primarily focused on industrial lubricants. Lake Speed Jr. comes from the racing world and now is more into engine building for racing applications. Very different sides of the industry, however the fundamentals stay the same. For a TL;DR of this video and what I've said for years (decades now?) on Arfcom: Only fuel additives that work are PEA based, more specifically Amine based fuel additives as they give a level of detergent to the fuel. Don't add anything to your engine oil. Seriously. Just fucking don't. It's all various levels of bad. Don't use MMO, don't use seafoam, don't use ZDDP additives, don't use super nano friction reducer. Just don't use it. You're going to do more harm than good. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
| Almost 20 years of using ZDDP additive in the same engines (hyd. flat tappet) that get the absolute shit beat out of them, yet still function perfectly (with no rebuilds), says I will continue to do so. Off the shelf available everywhere and zero ill side effects. If it's wrong, I just will stay wrong, as the results are excellent. |
"As I lay rubber down the street, I pray for traction that I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride." -Amen
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.....No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.....
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.....No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.....
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Any more than 5k changes with full synthetic and it's why do you hate your motor. 3k changes with full synthetic if turbo or motorcycle. 
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Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
"Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.
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Originally Posted By nvgeologist: Neat! Now how about diesel fuel additives? Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By Gtdhw: Almost 20 years of using ZDDP additive in the same engines (hyd. flat tappet) that get the absolute shit beat out of them, yet still function perfectly (with no rebuilds), says I will continue to do so. Off the shelf available everywhere and zero ill side effects. If it's wrong, I just will stay wrong, as the results are excellent. Test results for ZDDP additives start around the 27 minute mark. You can continue to stay wrong, everyone is allowed to have opinions. Just because something hasn't broken, doesn't make it right. You could, just use an oil formulated for high performance engines. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By JamPo: When you say “don’t use sea foam”, as an oil additive or does this include as a fuel additive as well? Doesn't do anything as a fuel additive. Just burn mineral spirits, same-same. As an oil additive, it will actually cause your oil viscosity to drop substantially and your oil to possibly, boil. Which is real fun with oxidation. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Alright... I'm actually going to make an oil thread on GD for this one.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAGT5inQScENow, Lake Speed Jr. does get kind of long winded in this video, at nearly 30 minutes long. And does get a bit technical with the used oil analysis. But, we share the same credentials, being we are both CLS or 'lubricant engineers' so to speak. I come from the distributor / marketer side of the world, primarily focused on industrial lubricants. Lake Speed Jr. comes from the racing world and now is more into engine building for racing applications. Very different sides of the industry, however the fundamentals stay the same. For a TL;DR of this video and what I've said for years (decades now?) on Arfcom: Only fuel additives that work are PEA based, more specifically Amine based fuel additives as they give a level of detergent to the fuel. Don't add anything to your engine oil. Seriously. Just fucking don't. It's all various levels of bad. Don't use MMO, don't use seafoam, don't use ZDDP additives, don't use super nano friction reducer. Just don't use it. You're going to do more harm than good. I just watched that video this morning after the YouTube geek thread. I didn't realize they did that much harm, but haven't used them in decades. |
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Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By nvgeologist: Neat! Now how about diesel fuel additives? Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. |
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Originally Posted By haveTwo: Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. Originally Posted By haveTwo: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By nvgeologist: Neat! Now how about diesel fuel additives? Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. Nope. I talked to the person in charge of the API's regulatory enforcement about that at a conference I was at earlier this year. They simply don't have the man power right now. They don't even have the man power to really enforce engine oil standards as much as they should. The only thing that could possibly be the next avenue would be transmission fluids. But for the most part, especially with the new fluids, those require a lot of specialty tools to even swap reasonably. So just stick to OEM / OEM Manufacturer like Idemitsu / Mobil / P66 / Etc. Make sure its licensed for your particular gear box. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By haveTwo: Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. Originally Posted By haveTwo: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By nvgeologist: Neat! Now how about diesel fuel additives? Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. |
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Originally Posted By Kanati: If we're not supposed to use additional additives like ZDDP, what is the take on commercial products that already have them baked in like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic, PennGrade, etc? I've got several old turds still driving. There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Power Service has the lowest temp rating too. (I think). It performs the best in the Bakken. IME. |
Then there came from hunting, the weather-eyed shooter.
ARFCOM Callsign: Varmint
ARFCOM Callsign: Varmint
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Originally Posted By Lungbuster: Power Service has the lowest temp rating too. (I think). It performs the best in the Bakken. IME. Originally Posted By Lungbuster: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Power Service has the lowest temp rating too. (I think). It performs the best in the Bakken. IME. The biggest issue with Diesel fuel additives, is actually the diesel fuel. I can get diesel fuel right now that there is not a single fuel additive on the market, that will move it's CFPP (Cold filter plug point) more than 2 or 3 degrees F. It depends on the hydro-cracking, it depends on the de-waxing, it depends on the amount of Bio-diesel blended in... Diesel fuel is extremely inconsistent region to region, refinery to refinery. Without doing active fuel testing a few times a year, in some cases, additive won't do anything. In some cases, it will do a lot. That's why there's not a one size fits all answer. But unless you're buying a lot of fuel from primarily a single source, testing is expensive to do. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Test results for ZDDP additives start around the 27 minute mark. You can continue to stay wrong, everyone is allowed to have opinions. Just because something hasn't broken, doesn't make it right. You could, just use an oil formulated for high performance engines. My high performance engines aren't flat tappet, so don't need the extra zinc (VR20w50 in those). My 375hp flat tappet sbc, I just treat and use as hp, lol. I could, but finding it on the shelf anywhere local is no-go. But, so is becoming the Valvoline dino 10w40 that I run in that one as well. If I really want to fix the zinc issue, I'd just rebuild & recam it to rollers, but it just keeps going...so I keep putting it off, lol. |
"As I lay rubber down the street, I pray for traction that I can keep, but if I spin and begin to slide, please dear God protect my ride." -Amen
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.....No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.....
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.....No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.....
|
Originally Posted By Gtdhw: My high performance engines aren't flat tappet, so don't need the extra zinc (VR20w50 in those). My 375hp flat tappet sbc, I just treat and use as hp, lol. I could, but finding it on the shelf anywhere local is no-go. But, so is becoming the Valvoline dino 10w40 that I run in that one as well. If I really want to fix the zinc issue, I'd just rebuild & recam it to rollers, but it just keeps going...so I keep putting it off, lol. Originally Posted By Gtdhw: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Test results for ZDDP additives start around the 27 minute mark. You can continue to stay wrong, everyone is allowed to have opinions. Just because something hasn't broken, doesn't make it right. You could, just use an oil formulated for high performance engines. My high performance engines aren't flat tappet, so don't need the extra zinc (VR20w50 in those). My 375hp flat tappet sbc, I just treat and use as hp, lol. I could, but finding it on the shelf anywhere local is no-go. But, so is becoming the Valvoline dino 10w40 that I run in that one as well. If I really want to fix the zinc issue, I'd just rebuild & recam it to rollers, but it just keeps going...so I keep putting it off, lol. Watch the video if you don't believe me. But Redline is available at Oreily's, Auto Zone and Advanced through their ship to store. Or just keep spending money on stuff that does more harm than good. I mean, people still put NCStar red dots on their AR's and call it tacticooool. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: The biggest issue with Diesel fuel additives, is actually the diesel fuel. I can get diesel fuel right now that there is not a single fuel additive on the market, that will move it's CFPP (Cold filter plug point) more than 2 or 3 degrees F. It depends on the hydro-cracking, it depends on the de-waxing, it depends on the amount of Bio-diesel blended in... Diesel fuel is extremely inconsistent region to region, refinery to refinery. Without doing active fuel testing a few times a year, in some cases, additive won't do anything. In some cases, it will do a lot. That's why there's not a one size fits all answer. But unless you're buying a lot of fuel from primarily a single source, testing is expensive to do. That’s been my experience as well. Thanks. |
Then there came from hunting, the weather-eyed shooter.
ARFCOM Callsign: Varmint
ARFCOM Callsign: Varmint
|
Originally Posted By Gtdhw: Almost 20 years of using ZDDP additive in the same engines (hyd. flat tappet) that get the absolute shit beat out of them, yet still function perfectly (with no rebuilds), says I will continue to do so. Off the shelf available everywhere and zero ill side effects. If it's wrong, I just will stay wrong, as the results are excellent. Don't stop using it especially on a new flat tappet. |
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Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Nope. I talked to the person in charge of the API's regulatory enforcement about that at a conference I was at earlier this year. They simply don't have the man power right now. They don't even have the man power to really enforce engine oil standards as much as they should. The only thing that could possibly be the next avenue would be transmission fluids. But for the most part, especially with the new fluids, those require a lot of specialty tools to even swap reasonably. So just stick to OEM / OEM Manufacturer like Idemitsu / Mobil / P66 / Etc. Make sure its licensed for your particular gear box. Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By haveTwo: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By nvgeologist: Neat! Now how about diesel fuel additives? Hit or miss. As he states, there are zero governing boards for additives. None. So you could be getting sold absolute snake oil, or you might be getting something that works. People ask me all the time what to use for a diesel product and I typically just recommend power service. It's not the best, it's not the worse, it's available about everywhere and they're basically the oldest name in the game there. There are other options - FPPF, Stanadyne, etc. If you have your favorite flavor, go for it. Just don't lick the spatula. As he states the same thing that I have several times - the worse thing about the oil industry is the terrible ass marketing. Is there any push to create standards like the API doughnut on engine oils for things like hydraulic oil? The lack of something similar to engine oil categories caught me by surprise when I got a tractor. Nope. I talked to the person in charge of the API's regulatory enforcement about that at a conference I was at earlier this year. They simply don't have the man power right now. They don't even have the man power to really enforce engine oil standards as much as they should. The only thing that could possibly be the next avenue would be transmission fluids. But for the most part, especially with the new fluids, those require a lot of specialty tools to even swap reasonably. So just stick to OEM / OEM Manufacturer like Idemitsu / Mobil / P66 / Etc. Make sure its licensed for your particular gear box. Makes sense, even if unfortunate. I don't make a living on my compact tractor, and rarely have to top it off. Not looking to save a couple bucks by going off brand for the hydro oil. Though I've gotten a few parts folks to clarify when I'm buying and oil filter and a bottle of hydro oil to keep on hand, since I already had the engine oil. Some people do pay attention, and want to make sure you aren't doing stupid. But it's easy enough to follow a basic maintenance chart. Even if Kubota put their engine oil fill in a stupid ass place. |
| The internet told me to add ZDDP to my 06 Jeep LJR. Are you saying the internet is wrong? |
Originally Posted By Geohans:
The human body follows the laws of thermodynamics until you introduce insulin. Then things get “bent” like a light beam around a gravitational object.
The human body follows the laws of thermodynamics until you introduce insulin. Then things get “bent” like a light beam around a gravitational object.
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Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By Kanati: If we're not supposed to use additional additives like ZDDP, what is the take on commercial products that already have them baked in like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic, PennGrade, etc? I've got several old turds still driving. There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) I don't have anything fancy, just a 49 flat head and a couple of 60s/70s trucks. |
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Originally Posted By Kanati: I use Redline in the race cars and my daily drivers based on previous conversations, but I didn't know they made an oil aimed at the older stuff too. I don't have anything fancy, just a 49 flat head and a couple of 60s/70s trucks. Originally Posted By Kanati: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By Kanati: If we're not supposed to use additional additives like ZDDP, what is the take on commercial products that already have them baked in like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic, PennGrade, etc? I've got several old turds still driving. There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) I don't have anything fancy, just a 49 flat head and a couple of 60s/70s trucks. Assuming they have non-felt or non-cork gaskets in them, redline will work fine. You can also use the VR1 oils from Valvoline. Few other options out there depending on your price point. Heck, even a CK4 10w30 diesel engine oil meets SN ratings typically. They would be fine. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
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Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By Kanati: If we're not supposed to use additional additives like ZDDP, what is the take on commercial products that already have them baked in like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic, PennGrade, etc? I've got several old turds still driving. There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) What is your opinion of After Market Cam Manufacturers recommending 1000ppm min to 1300ppm max on new flat tappet break in? Doesn't SN oils cap ZDDP at 800ppm? Are most newer oils lower than 700ppm? |
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Originally Posted By DaveM4K: What is your opinion of After Market Cam Manufacturers recommending 1000ppm min to 1300ppm max on new flat tappet break in? Doesn't SN oils cap ZDDP at 800ppm? Are most newer oils lower than 700ppm? Originally Posted By DaveM4K: Originally Posted By Foxtrot08: Originally Posted By Kanati: If we're not supposed to use additional additives like ZDDP, what is the take on commercial products that already have them baked in like Lucas Hot Rod and Classic, PennGrade, etc? I've got several old turds still driving. There are other anti-wears than ZDDP. But, if people are very focused on that one particular AW agent, then yes. Stick with something that has them already baked in. I always recommend redline and use it personally in my vehicles. All 3 of my vehicles have Redline Euro 5w30 in them. If you're looking for a little more higher of a dose of ZDDP, I would go with Redline 5w30 (or whatever grade your after.) What is your opinion of After Market Cam Manufacturers recommending 1000ppm min to 1300ppm max on new flat tappet break in? Doesn't SN oils cap ZDDP at 800ppm? Are most newer oils lower than 700ppm? There are other AW packages, particularly zinc free additive packages. The cam manufacturers are not oil experts. I'm not an expert on cam shapes or geometry. I don't expect them to understand how ZDDP competes with space on engine oil parts, with different base oils and different additives. As, that's what I'm more of an expert in. But, if you absolutely had to follow that. Use a CK4 diesel engine oil, a good CK4 10w30 or if you want to go synthetic, a 5w40 engine oil. They will typically have that 1100-1300ppm out side of Chevron Delo, which maintains a universal oil rating, so is limited to 800. Chevron likes to do alot with Boron as an AW package, which is what they do with the Delo 600 ADF product. However, more indepth it depends a lot on the base oil and it's polarity. How many polar connections bond with the metals. In turn, they compete with the ZDDP package for space on the metal parts. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
|
Originally Posted By lizARdman15: So, without watching a 30 min vid, what specific name brands of fuel additive do you recommend. I have never put anything in oil. Techron is the most common. Redline SL-1. A few others with Amines. |
Direction, not intention, determines destination.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
Integrity is the essence of everything successful.
