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Posted: 10/29/2018 6:59:29 AM EDT
[#1]
Not great news, but I only go through maybe a 50-round box per year to rotate carry ammo.
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Posted: 10/29/2018 7:12:45 AM EDT
[#2]
HST sucks anyway.
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Posted: 10/29/2018 7:17:20 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep, not Jefferson. https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/tyranny-defined-which-legal-government-spurious-quotation Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
https://i.imgur.com/ay4MGTe.jpg https://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/tyranny-defined-which-legal-government-spurious-quotation 
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Posted: 10/29/2018 7:48:52 AM EDT
[#4]
I still haven't seen a conclusion on what's the best alternative to HST and GD. Hopefully someone on arfcom or elsewhere does some good ammo testing, finds a good one and posts results. I would imagine most testing has already been done though.
I know for a fact I wont carry the hornady hallow points. Last time I ran a box I was getting velocities all over the map. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 8:25:38 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I still haven't seen a conclusion on what's the best alternative to HST and GD. Hopefully someone on arfcom or elsewhere does some good ammo testing, finds a good one and posts results. I would imagine most testing has already been done though. I know for a fact I wont carry the hornady hallow points. Last time I ran a box I was getting velocities all over the map. HST is good stuff but it’s not magic. Read the ammo FAQ section(s) on Pistol calibers for a knowledge dump. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 8:36:42 AM EDT
[#6]
What we need is some group buy action. 100-500k rounds on a group buy, at leo prices.
Count me in! 
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Posted: 10/29/2018 9:40:07 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm HST is good stuff but it’s not magic. Read the ammo FAQ section(s) on Pistol calibers for a knowledge dump. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I still haven't seen a conclusion on what's the best alternative to HST and GD. Hopefully someone on arfcom or elsewhere does some good ammo testing, finds a good one and posts results. I would imagine most testing has already been done though. I know for a fact I wont carry the hornady hallow points. Last time I ran a box I was getting velocities all over the map. HST is good stuff but it’s not magic. Read the ammo FAQ section(s) on Pistol calibers for a knowledge dump. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 9:44:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed. It's hard to not get wrapped around the axle on what round is best, but also, I want to have confidence in what I choose to defend myself and my family. Anyhoo, I've been looking at the Winchester Defend line as the Golden Sabers have issues with core separation. The PDX1 line was renamed to Defender, and the Defend is just the Defender with less ass. Though Lucky Gunner clocked the Defend at 15fps faster, which I guess might be acceptable deviance, I thought it would be less. I and others I am sure are open to suggestions. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread! |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:08:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKC832xZ6RA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvLvVONAiAg
I'm not saying I'm a huge GS fan. They're certainly not HSTs. But they are: -On "The List" -Available in 50 round boxes -$16/50 -Feed reliably -Accurate enough for SD So that'll work for me. That being said I think I should give the GS a fair shake I guess. It is cheaper than HST and has no restrictions (like HST and Ranger) and should be available for years to come. I wish there were a +p 147 available though. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:35:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
HST has some issues with core separation as it's not bonded. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Agreed. It's hard to not get wrapped around the axle on what round is best, but also, I want to have confidence in what I choose to defend myself and my family. Anyhoo, I've been looking at the Winchester Defend line as the Golden Sabers have issues with core separation. The PDX1 line was renamed to Defender, and the Defend is just the Defender with less ass. Though Lucky Gunner clocked the Defend at 15fps faster, which I guess might be acceptable deviance, I thought it would be less. I and others I am sure are open to suggestions. Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread! |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:42:22 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whateveryone should be doing is emailing Federal and Vista to complain about this, say they do not support shooters, and you will not buy ANY of their products. and not just for ammo. Vista covers a lot of brands. Stop buying from all of them and let them k ow why. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:49:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Half the problem with the retail packaging is the actual packaging. You just about need a screwdriver to open the box when new. The extra cost is probably because of all the plastic they waste making that crap.
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Posted: 10/29/2018 11:05:12 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Half the problem with the retail packaging is the actual packaging. You just about need a screwdriver to open the box when new. The extra cost is probably because of all the plastic they waste making that crap.  How to Open An HST Box |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 11:20:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Half the problem with the retail packaging is the actual packaging. You just about need a screwdriver to open the box when new. The extra cost is probably because of all the plastic they waste making that crap. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 11:22:24 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote History |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:13:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm HST is good stuff but it’s not magic. Read the ammo FAQ section(s) on Pistol calibers for a knowledge dump. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:20:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: How old is that information? 10 years? |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:26:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there any newer rounds that aren’t listed that should be tested and added? |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:30:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are there any newer rounds that aren’t listed that should be tested and added? Past that, you end up with low weight high velocity offerings such as Liberty's Civil Defense 9x19mm which is 50gr at approximately 2,000FPS from a handgun. Penetration can be lacking, 10-12", but it does defeat IIIa armor. However, it also fragments at 4-6" in gel, with only the base making it to 10-12". I'm still up in the air about that line of thinking for handguns, overall. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:38:31 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've heard LEO only for big boxes for as long as they've sold HST. Never had a problem buying it by the case load from SGAmmo or Target Sports. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
SGAmmo doesn't care, they're got HST in stock. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:41:53 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I still haven't seen a conclusion on what's the best alternative to HST and GD. Hopefully someone on arfcom or elsewhere does some good ammo testing, finds a good one and posts results. I would imagine most testing has already been done though. I know for a fact I wont carry the hornady hallow points. Last time I ran a box I was getting velocities all over the map. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 3:50:38 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://i.imgur.com/ay4MGTe.jpg |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 5:55:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How old is that information? 10 years? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm HST is good stuff but it's not magic. Read the ammo FAQ section(s) on Pistol calibers for a knowledge dump. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 7:01:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Updated 2016 |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 8:39:09 PM EDT
[#25]
My 9 HST shipped today. Will get some 45 HST later and probably add a little more 9 to go with it.
There are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 8:53:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How old is that information? 10 years? Lucky Gunner SD ammo testing They tested over 100 different loads in the common calibers with clear ballistics gel and simulated heavy clothing, recording velocity, penetration, and expansion. A couple examples. The first is an HST. The second is what I carry (knockoff of the Barnes loading)  
Edit: I did something odd with the pictures/captions. Fixed |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 9:00:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My 9 HST shipped today. Will get some 45 HST later and probably add a little more 9 to go with it. There are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. BFGC sold them for $22/box and shipping was a little over $16. Three boxes would have come out to $0.55/round. The stuff is out there, you just have to look for it. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 9:27:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote History
Those boxes are terrible. 
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Posted: 10/29/2018 9:46:39 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The same goes for GDHP's. One source I found has over 500 50-round boxes in stock at $23.99 / box, with $15 flat rate shipping. Three boxes comes out to $0.58/round. BFGC sold them for $22/box and shipping was a little over $16. Three boxes would have come out to $0.55/round. The stuff is out there, you just have to look for it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My 9 HST shipped today. Will get some 45 HST later and probably add a little more 9 to go with it. There are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. BFGC sold them for $22/box and shipping was a little over $16. Three boxes would have come out to $0.55/round. The stuff is out there, you just have to look for it. |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 10:47:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Want something new? Lucky Gunner SD ammo testing They tested over 100 different loads in the common calibers with clear ballistics gel and simulated heavy clothing, recording velocity, penetration, and expansion. A couple examples. The first is an HST. The second is what I carry (knockoff of the Barnes loading)https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/06BCB39B-5FE3-4E0C-8D25-796CBDF93B3D-721744.jpghttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/A51B9EDB-CAAE-45C4-9EC0-19809ED71FBD-721742.jpg Edit: I did something odd with the pictures/captions. Fixed |
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Posted: 10/29/2018 11:00:07 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just curious: why are you carrying a load with 30% less penetration and only slightly better expansion? At the time, they were the top performer in terms of expansion in that roundup without needing to be a +p loading. I can also get a version of them in bulk for reloading, of which I have a fair amount that perform almost identically. ETA: If you look at the testing, it was also one of only a few that met the 12" minimum, but never exceeded the 18" maximum of the FBI standard |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 1:45:34 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Want something new? Lucky Gunner SD ammo testing They tested over 100 different loads in the common calibers with clear ballistics gel and simulated heavy clothing, recording velocity, penetration, and expansion. A couple examples. The first is an HST. The second is what I carry (knockoff of the Barnes loading)https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/06BCB39B-5FE3-4E0C-8D25-796CBDF93B3D-721744.jpghttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/A51B9EDB-CAAE-45C4-9EC0-19809ED71FBD-721742.jpg Edit: I did something odd with the pictures/captions. Fixed Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: How old is that information? 10 years? Lucky Gunner SD ammo testing They tested over 100 different loads in the common calibers with clear ballistics gel and simulated heavy clothing, recording velocity, penetration, and expansion. A couple examples. The first is an HST. The second is what I carry (knockoff of the Barnes loading)https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/06BCB39B-5FE3-4E0C-8D25-796CBDF93B3D-721744.jpghttps://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/A51B9EDB-CAAE-45C4-9EC0-19809ED71FBD-721742.jpg Edit: I did something odd with the pictures/captions. Fixed Based on the results shown, your chosen load will fail to achieve 12" minimum penetration depth in 10% gel.  Clear Ballistics VS 10% gelatin  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 1:52:31 AM EDT
[#33]
Disregard. Screwed up quoting.
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Posted: 10/30/2018 1:53:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bullets shot into Clear Ballistics blocks will show deeper penetration, often by several inches, than when shot into FBI calibrated 10% ballistic gelatine. Based on the results shown, your chosen load will fail to achieve 12" minimum penetration depth in 10% gel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pqPBnSYTIc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kjcoFaobeo
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Posted: 10/30/2018 2:25:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're evidence runs counter to the claim. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468179/BD9B6AB7-9409-465B-A806-5D71E77C9893-721987.jpg Load, Penetration gel/cb, additional penetration in CB 380 90GD, 7.7"/11.9", +4.2" 9mm 124GS, 13.9"/18.7", +4.8" 357SIG 125GD, 14.8"/15.3", +0.5" 12GA 1oz Slug, 12.5"/16.5", +4.0" Shootingthebull410 data: Load, Penetration gel/cb, additional penetration in CB 45ACP 230HST, 13.25"/13.0", +0.75" 45ACP 185 Zombie, 11.5"/11.5", +0.0" 45C 185CD, 11.25"/12.5", +1.25" 380 90GD, 9.0"/9.5", +0.5" 22LR 30SMHV, 9.0"/9.5", +0.5" ETA: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-701468/?page=1 223 64NB, 15.6"/19.4", +3.8"  Real Ballistic Gelatin vs Clear Ballistics Gelatin |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 3:07:29 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Brassfetcher data: Load, Penetration gel/cb, additional penetration in CB 380 90GD, 7.7"/11.9", +4.2" 9mm 124GS, 13.9"/18.7", +4.8" 357SIG 125GD, 14.8"/15.3", +0.5" 12GA 1oz Slug, 12.5"/16.5", +4.0" Shootingthebull410 data: Load, Penetration gel/cb, additional penetration in CB 45ACP 230HST, 13.25"/13.0", +0.75" 45ACP 185 Zombie, 11.5"/11.5", +0.0" 45C 185CD, 11.25"/12.5", +1.25" 380 90GD, 9.0"/9.5", +0.5" 22LR 30SMHV, 9.0"/9.5", +0.5" ETA: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-701468/?page=1 223 64NB, 15.6"/19.4", +3.8" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KizfONaOVV0 Not a single SCHP in the mix, and only 1 9mm.~14” in bare gel.  PNW Arms TacOps 9mm All Copper Hollow Point Ammo Ballistics Gel Test (HD) ETA, a screen grab 
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Posted: 10/30/2018 7:43:16 AM EDT
[#37]
All this back and forth about testing is another reason to look at what has worked in real world police shootings. If you know a department carried a certain load and can find out how well it worked for them it will give you a good indication on what to carry. You might not know how many inches of gelatin it will penetrate but if it worked in the vast majority of that department’s shootings what does it matter?
The nice thing is most of this kind of data that is easy to access will be for older bullet designs that aren’t restricted. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 9:04:41 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryThere are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 12:05:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Where? Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 1:38:10 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Winchester are just as good IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Except that would be a lie on my part. I won't stop using CCI or Federal primers. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 3:12:53 PM EDT
[#41]
My case of 124gr from Bone Frog arrived today. Very pleased with the experience, as always.
Although, thats probably a life time of defensive 9mm for me. Guess I'll use it for classes. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 3:41:53 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
MASS AMMO and Streichers to name two Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There are other sources for the HST than BoneFrog at decent prices and no requirement to show credentials. 
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Posted: 10/30/2018 3:44:02 PM EDT
[#43]
I am feeling a bit hungover. For whatever reason, I now have 1,000 rounds of 124HST on the way to my house. I didn't know I needed that much until this thread.
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Posted: 10/30/2018 5:39:17 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MASS AMMO and Streichers to name two |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 8:41:58 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mass ammo is OOS and Streichers says they require LE certification. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: MASS AMMO and Streichers to name two |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 8:53:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry about that, I had put the ammo in the cart at Stretchers and just short of placing the order I was never asked for creds. The Target Sports site didn't ask, but at $30/box I'll pass. Picked up a single both this morning at the LGS for $35. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 9:17:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Ordered some 147 hst from boner Thursday. Got an email yesterday saying it will be delivered this Friday.
Just ordered some .45 230gr hst today from them. See how that goes. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 10:12:35 PM EDT
[#48]
Speaking to the QC on Golden Saber, I simply don't trust it, or anything newer Remington makes, at all.
Had a chrono out last fall and was testing various loads through my suppressed Scorpion SBR (I'm the dude that does the big velocity tests in the ammo section). The first 5 rounds were subsonic (around 1050fps). The sixth round had a supersonic crack and registered 1268fps! It seized up the gun and a part was rattling around inside which ended my day early. It turned out to be a broken disconnector from what could only be an overcharged round. My personal experience with Remington ammo is as follows: Their .22 "Golden Bullet" bulk packs absolutely suck. Inconsistent velocity, FTF, FTE, inaccurate. Just...no. Their 9mm Golden Saber broke my Scorpion. Several rounds from two different boxes of 7mm mag 150gr Core-Lokt would not chamber in two different, "known good" 7mm mag chambers. One of these rounds caused a missed opportunity for my dad on a 10pt buck, which is why we test chambered two full boxes in two different rifles. Two rounds of .30-06 "Core-Lokt" did not fire out of my brother's hunting rifle (What's the loudest sound in the woods? The *click* of a firing pin). Luckily the third round fired and he took a 130lb doe on the run (instead of a nice, easy broadside shot on a stationary target.) I'm as pissed as the next guy about Vista's stance on HST. That said, I would pay triple the price for HST if Golden Saber, or any of their ammo for that matter, were the only alternative available to me. YMMV and all that. |
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Posted: 10/30/2018 10:52:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mass ammo is OOS and Streichers says they require LE certification. 
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Posted: 10/30/2018 10:58:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My Streichers order should be here tomorrow... |
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