User Panel
Posted: 3/28/2024 10:25:38 AM EDT
I was just looking at old collector guns online, and saw an early 50s Remington 22 target rifle with no serial number. What does an FFL do to transfer a gun with no serial?
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subversive orchestrator
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[#1]
It gets received like any other firearm and the serial number is recorded as “NSN”
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[#2]
In addition to ghost and zombie guns - these will soon be categorized as mummy guns.
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Mr. Narrator! This is Bob Dylan to me.
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[#3]
From the instructions included with every 4473 form:
Questions 1-6. Firearm(s) Description: These blocks must be completed with the firearm(s) information. All firearms manufactured or made after 1968 by Federal firearms licensees should be marked with a licensee’s serial number. Should you acquire a firearm that is legally not marked with a serial number (i.e., certain pre-1968 firearms); you may answer question 3 with “NSN” (No Serial Number), “N/A” or “None.” Unless already properly marked by another licensee, licensees who take a privately made firearm (PMF) into inventory are required to mark the PMF with an individual serial number that begins with the FFL’s abbreviated license number, which is the first three and last five digits, as a prefix to a unique identification number, followed by a hyphen, e.g., 12345678-unique identification number. View Quote |
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In a truly free country, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency
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[#4]
Originally Posted By aksahsalahs: It gets received like any other firearm and the serial number is recorded as “NSN” View Quote This. For some reason I saw more last year than in the previous 10, but they are out there. I own a single shot 22 made in the 30s , savage I think? But no serial number. Most legitimate manufacturers had them for inventory control of nothing else but pre 1968 they didn’t have to. |
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[#5]
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[#6]
A friend of mine had a Stevens 12 Ga side by side shotgun with no serial number..
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[#7]
I have a Remington 510 TargetMaster that doesn’t have a serial number on it. Transferred like any normal firearm would.
Beware though you will run into fuckfaces that will tell you it’s illegal to have a firearm that doesn’t have a serial number on it. Just tell those people to fuck off, it usually isn’t worth the energy to try to educate those assholes. They already have their mind made up. |
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Potentate plenipotentiary sans portfolio
USA
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[#8]
My niche is mid century collectible and custom rifles.
By bound books have hundreds of NSN entries. Where it gets a bit interesting is the custom rifles. Prior to 1968 it was also legal to remove serial numbers and it was done on a lot of custom rifles. |
" If govt parsimony is economic madness, and debt-fuelled govt spending a recipe for riches, why aren't the Greeks bailing out the Germans?"
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[#9]
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: My niche is mid century collectible and custom rifles. By bound books have hundreds of NSN entries. Where it gets a bit interesting is the custom rifles. Prior to 1968 it was also legal to remove serial numbers and it was done on a lot of custom rifles. View Quote What was the purposed of removing a serial number? Something like using a military action as the base of a custom gun, or some other reason? Only kind of related question, were there a lot of more or less boutique rifle makers back then that made guns completely to order? |
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subversive orchestrator
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[Last Edit: miseses]
[#10]
What do they do with black powder revolvers that had a center fire cylinder conversion? Considered PMF?
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[#11]
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[#12]
Check with your FFL first. I’ve heard stories of FFLs engraving a serial number on themselves in such a case (with no notice to the owner), which would really suck.
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Potentate plenipotentiary sans portfolio
USA
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[Last Edit: UtahShotgunner]
[#13]
Originally Posted By Colt1860: What was the purposed of removing a serial number? Something like using a military action as the base of a custom gun, or some other reason? Only kind of related question, were there a lot of more or less boutique rifle makers back then that made guns completely to order? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Colt1860: Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: My niche is mid century collectible and custom rifles. By bound books have hundreds of NSN entries. Where it gets a bit interesting is the custom rifles. Prior to 1968 it was also legal to remove serial numbers and it was done on a lot of custom rifles. What was the purposed of removing a serial number? Something like using a military action as the base of a custom gun, or some other reason? Only kind of related question, were there a lot of more or less boutique rifle makers back then that made guns completely to order? "Boutique rifle maker"? Yes, think of the gunsmith that was in every other town in the 30s, 40s, 50s & 60s. Reasons I have seen. 1) Removing pitting. 2) Unmarked surface for engraving. 3) Heavy hand on the sander/polisher. More of the custom/extreme version. Weight cutting. Ex: Oberndorf German made 1903 Turkish Mauser actions had the earlier small barrel shank, but had the large ring of the GEW98. Milling the front ring to small ring dimensions would removed 2-3 ounces. Ounces are easy to add and hard to remove for a truly lightweight rifle. I have completely hollowed the stock from grip to butt leaving walls approx. 1/8 of an inch thick. That only removed two ounces. Later, the K. Kale 98s were imported with the same small shank/large ring, but that was post '68 so reducing the front ring now requires ATF involvement to move the s/n. There is also the simple example of having an old firearm refinished or restored. In say 1965 you take Grandpa's rifle in that got left in the barn or whatever. Local 'smith could grind and polish exterior without concern, then re-blue. The "tricky" part is knowing when that work was done. So many Mauser rifles were built by Bubba, local 'smiths and true Gun Makers in the pre '68 era that I don't have a problem putting NSN in my bound book. Others? A firearm from a company that did use s/n's such as Winchester? Case by case basis and I usually default to not buying them. |
" If govt parsimony is economic madness, and debt-fuelled govt spending a recipe for riches, why aren't the Greeks bailing out the Germans?"
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[#14]
Originally Posted By Dolomite: In addition to ghost and zombie guns - these will soon be categorized as mummy guns. View Quote Nice! Attached File |
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For your pleasure or your pain, society is a game.
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[#15]
Slightly related...the 1980 22lr I bought from Cabelas wasn't stamped Miroku, the manufacturer, only Browning.
It gave Cabelas' already torturous process fits, and was only resolved when the senior manager threw up his hands and said, "Mark it as Browning, and sell him the damn gun." Or words to that effect. Singular case, but I can't imagine how they're working through guns in the library with no serial numbers. |
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"Cease quoting laws to us who have swords"
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[#16]
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[#17]
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subversive orchestrator
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[#18]
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subversive orchestrator
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[#19]
Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: "Boutique rifle maker"? Yes, think of the gunsmith that was in every other town in the 30s, 40s, 50s & 60s. Reasons I have seen. 1) Removing pitting. 2) Unmarked surface for engraving. 3) Heavy hand on the sander/polisher. More of the custom/extreme version. Weight cutting. Ex: Oberndorf German made 1903 Turkish Mauser actions had the earlier small barrel shank, but had the large ring of the GEW98. Milling the front ring to small ring dimensions would removed 2-3 ounces. Ounces are easy to add and hard to remove for a truly lightweight rifle. I have completely hollowed the stock from grip to butt leaving walls approx. 1/8 of an inch thick. That only removed two ounces. Later, the K. Kale 98s were imported with the same small shank/large ring, but that was post '68 so reducing the front ring now requires ATF involvement to move the s/n. There is also the simple example of having an old firearm refinished or restored. In say 1965 you take Grandpa's rifle in that got left in the barn or whatever. Local 'smith could grind and polish exterior without concern, then re-blue. The "tricky" part is knowing when that work was done. So many Mauser rifles were built by Bubba, local 'smiths and true Gun Makers in the pre '68 era that I don't have a problem putting NSN in my bound book. Others? A firearm from a company that did use s/n's such as Winchester? Case by case basis and I usually default to not buying them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: Originally Posted By Colt1860: Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: My niche is mid century collectible and custom rifles. By bound books have hundreds of NSN entries. Where it gets a bit interesting is the custom rifles. Prior to 1968 it was also legal to remove serial numbers and it was done on a lot of custom rifles. What was the purposed of removing a serial number? Something like using a military action as the base of a custom gun, or some other reason? Only kind of related question, were there a lot of more or less boutique rifle makers back then that made guns completely to order? "Boutique rifle maker"? Yes, think of the gunsmith that was in every other town in the 30s, 40s, 50s & 60s. Reasons I have seen. 1) Removing pitting. 2) Unmarked surface for engraving. 3) Heavy hand on the sander/polisher. More of the custom/extreme version. Weight cutting. Ex: Oberndorf German made 1903 Turkish Mauser actions had the earlier small barrel shank, but had the large ring of the GEW98. Milling the front ring to small ring dimensions would removed 2-3 ounces. Ounces are easy to add and hard to remove for a truly lightweight rifle. I have completely hollowed the stock from grip to butt leaving walls approx. 1/8 of an inch thick. That only removed two ounces. Later, the K. Kale 98s were imported with the same small shank/large ring, but that was post '68 so reducing the front ring now requires ATF involvement to move the s/n. There is also the simple example of having an old firearm refinished or restored. In say 1965 you take Grandpa's rifle in that got left in the barn or whatever. Local 'smith could grind and polish exterior without concern, then re-blue. The "tricky" part is knowing when that work was done. So many Mauser rifles were built by Bubba, local 'smiths and true Gun Makers in the pre '68 era that I don't have a problem putting NSN in my bound book. Others? A firearm from a company that did use s/n's such as Winchester? Case by case basis and I usually default to not buying them. The reason I've heard the most is they thought it was ugly. |
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Potentate plenipotentiary sans portfolio
USA
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[#20]
Originally Posted By Dracster: The reason I've heard the most is they thought it was ugly. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Dracster: Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: Originally Posted By Colt1860: Originally Posted By UtahShotgunner: My niche is mid century collectible and custom rifles. By bound books have hundreds of NSN entries. Where it gets a bit interesting is the custom rifles. Prior to 1968 it was also legal to remove serial numbers and it was done on a lot of custom rifles. What was the purposed of removing a serial number? Something like using a military action as the base of a custom gun, or some other reason? Only kind of related question, were there a lot of more or less boutique rifle makers back then that made guns completely to order? "Boutique rifle maker"? Yes, think of the gunsmith that was in every other town in the 30s, 40s, 50s & 60s. Reasons I have seen. 1) Removing pitting. 2) Unmarked surface for engraving. 3) Heavy hand on the sander/polisher. More of the custom/extreme version. Weight cutting. Ex: Oberndorf German made 1903 Turkish Mauser actions had the earlier small barrel shank, but had the large ring of the GEW98. Milling the front ring to small ring dimensions would removed 2-3 ounces. Ounces are easy to add and hard to remove for a truly lightweight rifle. I have completely hollowed the stock from grip to butt leaving walls approx. 1/8 of an inch thick. That only removed two ounces. Later, the K. Kale 98s were imported with the same small shank/large ring, but that was post '68 so reducing the front ring now requires ATF involvement to move the s/n. There is also the simple example of having an old firearm refinished or restored. In say 1965 you take Grandpa's rifle in that got left in the barn or whatever. Local 'smith could grind and polish exterior without concern, then re-blue. The "tricky" part is knowing when that work was done. So many Mauser rifles were built by Bubba, local 'smiths and true Gun Makers in the pre '68 era that I don't have a problem putting NSN in my bound book. Others? A firearm from a company that did use s/n's such as Winchester? Case by case basis and I usually default to not buying them. The reason I've heard the most is they thought it was ugly. "Ugly" and unneeded. A lot of the crests got removed for the same reason. Personally, I like the crests. |
" If govt parsimony is economic madness, and debt-fuelled govt spending a recipe for riches, why aren't the Greeks bailing out the Germans?"
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[Last Edit: Bladeswitcher]
[#21]
Originally Posted By Osprey61: Slightly related...the 1980 22lr I bought from Cabelas wasn't stamped Miroku, the manufacturer, only Browning. It gave Cabelas' already torturous process fits, and was only resolved when the senior manager threw up his hands and said, "Mark it as Browning, and sell him the damn gun." Or words to that effect. Singular case, but I can't imagine how they're working through guns in the library with no serial numbers. View Quote You record what’s on the gun. You don’t bring your own knowledge into it. Some cop who recovers the gun after a burglary isn’t going to know what you think you know. He’s going to run a trace based on what is written on the gun. |
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In a truly free country, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms would be the name of a convenience store, not a federal agency
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[#22]
Some of those pre 68 no serial number guns actually have numbers but they are not visible unless the gun is partially disassembled.
Remington Model 41 rifles have a serial number located on the underside of the barrel that is hidden by the stock when the gun is assembled. In those days the serial number did not have to be readily visible. |
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