FFL asks for phone number during transfer? (Page 1 of 2)
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Posted: 9/25/2024 10:13:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sixers79][Edited]
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Have had 2 transfers now where an FFL asked me to list a phone number, incidentally both at small shops run by more cranky boomers...anyhow, first time they asked me after the transfer had already been completed and clearance from the NICS received as I was gathering my stuff to leave, and he wrote it down at the top of the 4473...second time, he insisted before submitting the transfer, and set it in an ink stamp he marked the entire sheet with...both transfers took place in the same state as one another, one of them recently another years ago... Phone # is not a requirement nor a component of a 4473. Any 1) good reason an FFL has to be asking that of a buyer and 2) obligation exist for one to provide a truthful response to that (or even a response at all) under penalty of law? Furthermore, with the ATF illegally scanning all 4473s with OCR software during site visits and FFL inspections, what is the risk of one's phone number ending up in their national database in direct association to a transfer record, considering that it is not a direct field or part of the form, and is instead added to the form under circumstances like these by the FFL in a nonstandard form? |
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I have had them do so. I always say no. Had one refuse the transaction, and I was ok with that, the rest were ok with no phone number. NOT an ATF requirement. It's just an FFL want. I could just give a bogus phone number, but it's a matter of principle for me. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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The automated 4473 I fill out at both gun shops I buy from has software that requires phone and email, I think; even though the atf doesn't. I bought a Glock from a chain sporting goods store. They took the serial number off the slide and left out the "US" at the end. The county pistol permit clerk noticed it when I registered the pistol (yeah NY!). The gun shop called me and asked me to come down and fix the 4473, I did. I figure they want phone numbers to call and ask you to fix mistakes. If the Feds are after me they have my number, ha ha. |
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As stated above, it's just something the FFL may ask for. Not a requirement. We did the same when I worked for FFLs, just in case there was an issue discovered later, and we wanted to contact the transferee. Originally Posted By sixers79: Furthermore, with the ATF illegally scanning all 4473s with OCR software during site visits and FFL inspections, what is the risk of one's phone number ending up in their national database in direct association to a transfer record, considering that it is not a direct field or part of the form, and is instead added to the form under circumstances like these by the FFL in a nonstandard form? |
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I use Fastbound, so your phone number isn't on the 4473, just associated with it in Fastbound's database. I use the customer's phone number for 3 reasons: To call you about the status of your N"I"CS check; To call you if there's a question about the paperwork; In case I need bail money. If I'm calling at 2 AM, it's not about your NICS check or 4473. |
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It’s just for Admin purposes like others have said. Who cares. One time I left a magazine and a carry case behind and guess what? The shop I just left called me on the phone and I turned around and got my stuff. Your phone number isn’t exactly some secret personal info, if you’re worried about the feds having it on a 4473 you’re delusional. They already have your name and address, finding a phone number is really easy. But no it’s not a requirement of the form. |
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Originally Posted By ScoutH57: It’s just for Admin purposes like others have said. Who cares. One time I left a magazine and a carry case behind and guess what? The shop I just left called me on the phone and I turned around and got my stuff. Your phone number isn’t exactly some secret personal info, if you’re worried about the feds having it on a 4473 you’re delusional. They already have your name and address, finding a phone number is really easy. But no it’s not a requirement of the form. people are weird, your name and address are public information....it's pretty easy to figure out where someone lives, even without a PD resource. |
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Originally Posted By ScoutH57: It’s just for Admin purposes like others have said. Who cares. One time I left a magazine and a carry case behind and guess what? The shop I just left called me on the phone and I turned around and got my stuff. Your phone number isn’t exactly some secret personal info, if you’re worried about the feds having it on a 4473 you’re delusional. They already have your name and address, finding a phone number is really easy. But no it’s not a requirement of the form. People seem to be misunderstanding my apprehension of all this as if it is related to a paranoia-driven fear of me, the OP, to keep my individual pieces of information secretive...it isn't. I know in this day and age that nobody has a right to privacy anymore, only a privilege for some. I have even had the CIA deputy director in a lecture admit to us that their agents have had to adapt in the 2000s from 'cash and anonymity' to 'multiple identities' just by virtue of the fact that indeed, everybody asks for information, and giving nothing or pure bogus is seldom a viable option anymore. What I am concerned about however, is the yielding of information in association to one another...sure, it is one thing for someone to Google Maps my street address written on a form, or for someone to trace the caller ID on my phone #...it is a very different thing though for someone to have both those pieces of information in association to one another. Providing a bogus disconnected phone # in conjunction to a valid address is one thing, but providing my real one now adds value to that address for a hacker in the case of a breach, or for an investigator in the matter of a prejudiced and overreaching legal case...that is the point here. |
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Originally Posted By sixers79: People seem to be misunderstanding my apprehension of all this as if it is related to a paranoia-driven fear of me, the OP, to keep my individual pieces of information secretive...it isn't. I know in this day and age that nobody has a right to privacy anymore, only a privilege for some. I have even had the CIA deputy director in a lecture admit to us that their agents have had to adapt in the 2000s from 'cash and anonymity' to 'multiple identities' just by virtue of the fact that indeed, everybody asks for information, and giving nothing or pure bogus is seldom a viable option anymore. What I am concerned about however, is the yielding of information in association to one another...sure, it is one thing for someone to Google Maps my street address written on a form, or for someone to trace the caller ID on my phone #...it is a very different thing though for someone to have both those pieces of information in association to one another. Providing a bogus disconnected phone # in conjunction to a valid address is one thing, but providing my real one now adds value to that address for a hacker in the case of a breach, or for an investigator in the matter of a prejudiced and overreaching legal case...that is the point here. That’s why I prefer 4473 forms to be on paper in filing cabinets, where they’re not computer-searchable, and also readily damaged by flooding or other natural disasters. Nobody can exfiltrate them via internet breaches/compromises either (when they’re exclusively on paper). But if they exist at the end of the FFL business’s existence, ATF’s OBRC is mandated by law to receive them. The 20-year retention rule is over. (Now they get them all.) If you’re concerned about information security, the greatest risk is from third parties. (Not ATF, but hackers and bad-actor employees of FFLs, or anyone with access to those records.) This is a significant reason I never list my SSN on any 4473. |
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: You’re not wrong. But if they exist at the end of the FFL business’s existence, ATF’s OBRC is mandated by law to receive them. The 20-year retention rule is over. (Now they get them all.) Originally Posted By KitBuilder: You’re not wrong. But if they exist at the end of the FFL business’s existence, ATF’s OBRC is mandated by law to receive them. The 20-year retention rule is over. (Now they get them all.) Precisely, they get all the records now...unfortunately one of the provisions of R2021-05 that was not struck down upon appeal...so all the more impetus to at least mask or withhold what little info one has on them that they don't wish to disclose... Originally Posted By SteveOak: How does the FFL contact you to let you know the firearm to be transferred to you has arrived? Phone number one provides to the business or individual for use withe shipping label or written inside the parcel is always to be kept separate from the actual 4473 record, unless disclosed intentionally & knowingly by the transferee |
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: It is so incase a mistake is made on the paperwork for serial number the ffl can contact you and fix it before the atf yanks their license with their zero tolerance crap. Dont be a dick and give your phone number. My FIL knows a guy, who knows a guy, who knows a guy, realted to a guy, that knows a guy on the interwebs thats from Scotland and he told him about this. His cousin works for the govt... LOL.... Just messin around. |
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: It is so incase a mistake is made on the paperwork for serial number the ffl can contact you and fix it before the atf yanks their license with their zero tolerance crap. Dont be a dick and give your phone number. This. Mistakes occur, buyers leave their ID, signature missing on form, and more, it happens. |
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Originally Posted By sixers79: Phone # is not a requirement nor a component of a 4473. Any 1) good reason an FFL has to be asking that of a buyer and 2) obligation exist for one to provide a truthful response to that (or even a response at all) under penalty of law? No good reason. But being able to contact customers faster than USPS mail, there is a convenience reason. I have never been asked and as an FFL I never ask nor needed it. |
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My preferred FFL called me yesterday about a paperwork fuckup. I misspelled my street name on my latest 4473. I like them, and don't want to have to devolop a good replationship with another store in the event the AFT fucked with them about it, so I stopped in, shot the shit with the manager for a bit, fixed my fuckup and went on my merry way. No harm/no foul. |
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: It is so incase a mistake is made on the paperwork for serial number the ffl can contact you and fix it before the atf yanks their license with their zero tolerance crap. Dont be a dick and give your phone number. 
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: Dont be a dick and give your phone number. No. I will never give them my phone number or SSN. You can call me a dick if you want, but the entire process is already unconstitutional on it's face, and I absolutely will not do one iota more than is required by law. Not one. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By _DR: No. I will never give them my phone number or SSN. You can call me a dick if you want, but the entire process is already unconstitutional on it's face, and I absolutely will not do one iota more than is required by law. Not one. Originally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By Green_Label: Dont be a dick and give your phone number. No. I will never give them my phone number or SSN. You can call me a dick if you want, but the entire process is already unconstitutional on it's face, and I absolutely will not do one iota more than is required by law. Not one. Not a problem. I won't call you when your NICS check clears. I'll just put the gun back out on the table & sell it to someone else. |
I sell firearms produced by the finest child labor in the world, be it Filipino, Muslim, Mormon, Arizonan, or Texan.
| The only time I ever asked for a phone number was if the customer was delayed. I needed their phone number to text or call them to let them know they got their proceed. I never asked for the phone number or even wrote it on the 4473 for just a normal proceed transaction. |
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Anytime someone asks for my phone number and I don’t really want them to have it, I just give them my number but change one of the digits. They will most likely never know and if it ever comes up I can claim one of us just made a mistake. |
“Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: Dont be a dick and give your phone number. Or better yet, be a professional and pay attention to what you are doing and don't fuck up your paperwork, and stop harassing people unnecessarily by asking for personal information that is not required by law. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By SteveOak: How does the FFL contact you to let you know the firearm to be transferred to you has arrived? Tracking numbers are a thing. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By dunndw: My preferred FFL called me yesterday about a paperwork fuckup. I misspelled my street name on my latest 4473. I like them, and don't want to have to devolop a good replationship with another store in the event the AFT fucked with them about it, so I stopped in, shot the shit with the manager for a bit, fixed my fuckup and went on my merry way. No harm/no foul. Fix it by crossing it out and entering correct info on the 4473 and initialling? |
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Originally Posted By _DR: Tracking numbers are a thing. Originally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By SteveOak: How does the FFL contact you to let you know the firearm to be transferred to you has arrived? Tracking numbers are a thing. A tracking number has fuck all to do with contacting a customer. |
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Originally Posted By Green_Label: It is so incase a mistake is made on the paperwork for serial number the ffl can contact you and fix it before the atf yanks their license with their zero tolerance crap. Dont be a dick and give your phone number. This. Your phone # is already known to more scammers than you can count. |
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Got it. You are one of those customers who watches the tracking number and then shows up 90 seconds after delivery. Nah, I give them two days to get their shit in order. It's always enough. I do like to know where my stuff is, after it ships though. One time I ordered a OM-9K from Atlantic, and followed the tracking. It disappeared at a Fed-Ex hub, never made it back on a truck. 3 days in limbo, no further activity. Finally called Atlantic and they ended up sending me another one. Always wondered where that MP-5 clone ended up. Fed Ex...The World on Time my ass. Yeah, tracking matters. Don't think that it doesn't. I had no idea there were so many phone number nazis on Arfcom. Some things still surprise after all these years. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: A tracking number has fuck all to do with contacting a customer. The point is, I don't need my FFL to call me to know my item has arrived. Ergo, they don't need my number. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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I had a guy in for a transfer last week who accidentally left behind an accessory that came with the gun. I bet he was glad that I had his phone # so I could call him and get him turned around before he drove all the way home. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
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Originally Posted By _DR: Or better yet, be a professional and pay attention to what you are doing and don't fuck up your paperwork, and stop harassing people unnecessarily by asking for personal information that is not required by law. Originally Posted By _DR: Originally Posted By Green_Label: Dont be a dick and give your phone number. Or better yet, be a professional and pay attention to what you are doing and don't fuck up your paperwork, and stop harassing people unnecessarily by asking for personal information that is not required by law. Or better yet, when I forget to give your ID back to you and you forget to ask, I can just shred it instead of calling you, since I don't have a number on file. I could mail it to you, but there is no legal requirement to do so. |
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I have a local exchange google number I use for things like this. However I also have a landline number that my Internet provider requires me to purchase to get any other services. It's not connected to anything, so I guess I could give that out. But being a boomer, I just tell them 867-5309... |
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
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Originally Posted By rktman26: Or better yet, when I forget to give your ID back to you and you forget to ask, I can just shred it instead of calling you, since I don't have a number on file. I could mail it to you, but there is no legal requirement to do so. The FFL I use isn't an asshole, nor does he ask for my phone number. He is very professional, but also understands privacy. He runs a brick and mortar business. I can go by and talk to him anytime. He keeps his info available for mail order transfers on his website, it's fast and easy. He has never asked me for my phone number. If you think the idea of shredding your customer's gov't issued ID out of spite would be fun, maybe you should consider another line of work. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By _DR: The point is, I don't need my FFL to call me to know my item has arrived. Ergo, they don't need my number. Originally Posted By _DR: The point is, I don't need my FFL to call me to know my item has arrived. Ergo, they don't need my number. I know thats your point, but that wasn't the question.  Originally Posted By SteveOak: How does the FFL contact you to let you know the firearm to be transferred to you has arrived? It's not just about the arrival, but that the firearm is ready for transfer. Contacting the customer before the gun is logged in? Hell, 99% of my gun boxes dont have the transferees name on the outside. Meaning I don't know who its for until I open the box and log it in my books. Then I have to prepare the Form 4473 Section A. You arrive before I do that and you might be told to go back home and wait for the email. While your FFL may be fine with you dropping in two days later, I prefer contacting my customer the day the gun arrives.....and let them know my availability to complete the transfer. If a gun arrives on Saturday after 2pm on Saturday....it won't be logged in until Monday after 4pm. Not to mention few dealers appreciate customers assuming they have nothing else to do but wait on them right then and there. Sure, a large shop with a half dozen employees may be able to handle that, but a one man shop? You might have to wait a while. Tracking, whether from UPS/FedEx/USPS is not accurate. I receive almost 2,000 firearms a year and there are tracking and delivery errors every week. Every. Single. Week. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
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Originally Posted By Bubbles: I had a guy in for a transfer last week who accidentally left behind an accessory that came with the gun. I bet he was glad that I had his phone # so I could call him and get him turned around before he drove all the way home. At least once a week I find eyeglasses, cell phones, wallets, credit cards, DL or LTC, gun accessories, ink pens, etc that customers forgot. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: I know thats your point, but that wasn't the question. It's not just about the arrival, but that the firearm is ready for transfer. Contacting the customer before the gun is logged in? Hell, 99% of my gun boxes dont have the transferees name on the outside. Meaning I don't know who its for until I open the box and log it in my books. Then I have to prepare the Form 4473 Section A. You arrive before I do that and you might be told to go back home and wait for the email. While your FFL may be fine with you dropping in two days later, I prefer contacting my customer the day the gun arrives.....and let them know my availability to complete the transfer. If a gun arrives on Saturday after 2pm on Saturday....it won't be logged in until Monday after 4pm. Not to mention few dealers appreciate customers assuming they have nothing else to do but wait on them right then and there. Sure, a large shop with a half dozen employees may be able to handle that, but a one man shop? You might have to wait a while. Tracking, whether from UPS/FedEx/USPS is not accurate. I receive almost 2,000 firearms a year and there are tracking and delivery errors every week. Every. Single. Week. I guess it's not really an issue since I shoot at my FFLs business frequently, its a range as well as a store, so I am there pretty often. Plus, I am rarely in a hurry to pick up a transfer item. But both they and I are pretty laid back, so if they told me the item wasn't checked in yet, I'd fine with that too, I would pick it up next time I was by. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By _DR: No. I will never give them my phone number or SSN. You can call me a dick if you want, but the entire process is already unconstitutional on it's face, and I absolutely will not do one iota more than is required by law. Not one. Originally Posted By _DR: Or better yet, be a professional and pay attention to what you are doing and don't fuck up your paperwork, and stop harassing people unnecessarily by asking for personal information that is not required by law. Originally Posted By _DR: I guess it's not really an issue since I shoot at my FFLs business frequently, its a range as well as a store, so I am there pretty often. Plus, I am rarely in a hurry to pick up a transfer item. But both they and I are pretty laid back, so if they told me the item wasn't checked in yet, I'd fine with that too, I would pick it up next time I was by. Attached File I think we have different ideas of what "laid back" is. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I my FFL is one of the few people who have my phone number. You know, the person who has my address, DL number, and a list of all of my transfers and purchases. |
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Originally Posted By Homesteader375: /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/christian-bale-confused-face-x8olip1hb9h-966.gif I think we have different ideas of what "laid back" is. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I my FFL is one of the few people who have my phone number. You know, the person who has my address, DL number, and a list of all of my transfers and purchases. My main objection is being required by an FFL to put my phone number on the 4473 to complete a purchase. It has happened at two different FFLs. But everyone has their own view on this I suppose. Like said previously, I feel the entire requirement to have to use a federally licensed dealer to purchase a new firearm that is say, made in my state of residence, sold in my state of residence, that has never left my state of residence is wholly unconstitutional. There should be no federal jurisdiction here to require an FFL or 4473 if the 2A and interstate commerce act of 1887 mean anything at all. So yes, I will comply with law, unconstitutional as it may be. But no, I will do nothing beyond what the law requires. It's like Cabela's now requiring signing paperwork to buy cap and ball revolvers in Texas. I will never comply with such overreach. I Haven't done NICS since 2001, when I obtained my TX LTC, either. NICS is just more unconstitutional BS. The slippery slope is very real. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By _DR: My main objection is being required by an FFL to put my phone number on the 4473 to complete a purchase. It has happened at two different FFLs. Originally Posted By _DR: My main objection is being required by an FFL to put my phone number on the 4473 to complete a purchase. It has happened at two different FFLs. I get that. But think why those FFL's ask for your phone#......likely because in the past, those FFL's needed the buyers phone#. Why they needed iyour phone# was relevant enough to them that they now ask customers to provide it. It funny, but nearly every gun I get in has the buyers phone# on the receipt. You had no problem giving that to the seller. Like said previously, I feel the entire requirement to have to use a federally licensed dealer to purchase a new firearm that is say, made in my state of residence, sold in my state of residence, that has never left my state of residence is wholly unconstitutional. There should be no federal jurisdiction here to require an FFL or 4473 if the 2A and interstate commerce act of 1887 mean anything at all. What you or I think is unconstitutional isn't in dispute. An FFL, 4473, NICS is the law and every FFL when applying for his license agrees to abide by those laws. So until a federal court agrees with us, thats the law. The Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 has nothing to do with federal regulations over firearms. Wickard v Filburnwas a SCOTUS decision in 1942 based on the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, not the 1887 federal law. So yes, I will comply with law, unconstitutional as it may be. But no, I will do nothing beyond what the law requires. Thats your choice. If you dont like the dealer asking for your phone# just walk out. Leave. But first tell the dealer why. No one forced you to choose the dealer, you did that. You can just as easily choose a different dealer. I Haven't done NICS since 2001, when I obtained my TX LTC, either. Well, thats because the State of Texas is running that NICS check on you instead of the dealer. NICS is just more unconstitutional BS. But the Texas LTC isn't?  |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Well, thats because the State of Texas is running that NICS check on you instead of the dealer. But the Texas LTC isn't? They (Texas DPS, LTC issuer) don't run any kind of federal or even state NICS on every gun purchase, just on renewal of the TX LTC. I get that the forever 4473 is now a defacto (if delayed) firearm registry, but the fewer places this happens, the better. Texas has constitutional carry in effect now, so the TX LTC is completely optional for concealed carry. It's still worth it, imo, for avoiding the hassle and harassment that is the Federal NICS system. Also it's a second form of gov issued ID, so it's useful. But since we have constitutional carry in Texas, the LTC is not unconstitutional as you suggested. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Thats your choice. If you don't like the dealer asking for your phone# just walk out. Leave. But first tell the dealer why. I do exactly that. My current FFL has no problem with no phone number being provided. As you said, providing a phone number is sometimes required by the vendor. This isn't the same as putting on a federal form, though I realize that NSA and likely FBI/DHS/CIA/IRS have access to the number, but there isn't anything I can do about that. Still doesn't mean I am going to volunteer it. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX: So we have covered phone numbers. Are we ready to discuss FFLs who photocopy your ID and staple it to the 4473? Go! Attached File |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
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Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Are we ready to discuss FFLs who photocopy your ID and staple it to the 4473? Why would you do that? |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/