FFL asks for phone number during transfer? (Page 2 of 2)
|
Originally Posted By Green_Label: It is so incase a mistake is made on the paperwork for serial number the ffl can contact you and fix it before the atf yanks their license with their zero tolerance crap. Dont be a dick and give your phone number. This is correct. |
|
Originally Posted By Bubbles: Why would you do that? Originally Posted By Bubbles: Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Are we ready to discuss FFLs who photocopy your ID and staple it to the 4473? Why would you do that? To cover their ass! Duh.  The dealer that caused me to become an FFL did that. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
You know, the feds already have your phone number, and your social security number, and list of every gun that ever got run through a NICS check, and every email and text you've sent for the last two decades, and your entire family tree, and the name of everyone you ever lived near, and they know exactly what you bought at the grocery store. They know all the details of the system configuration files on your internet-connected electronic devices. But you don't want to give some poor shmuck who is making 5% profit on the sale of a range toy your phone number because, indigation. And you don't want to give your social security number because its so much fun when someone else has a disqualifying criminal conviction, and also has the same name and date-of-birth as you (but a different social security number). Stick to your principles lads. You'll get ahead in this game if you do. |
---------------
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
|
Originally Posted By W_E_G: You know, the feds already have your phone number, and your social security number, and list of every gun that ever got run through a NICS check..... Only "handgun", "long gun" or "other firearm" is transmitted to NICs. They don't get manufacturer, model, serial#, caliber or even if it rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver, etc. Where do yall get this stuff? Attached File |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Only "handgun", "long gun" or "other firearm" is transmitted to NICs. They don't get manufacturer, model, serial#, caliber or even if it rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver, etc. Where do yall get this stuff? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/200-816.gif I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF. I am saying that the ATF managed to identify the purchaser of Matthew Crooks' AR within 30 minutes and their explanations don't add up. I work in government. When things work well they don't work that fast. I think that odds are that the government, through whatever sources they use, have a pretty good idea of what you have in your possession. They certainly have access to your financial information and who you paid money to. They see transfers. They can make correlations between transfers, amounts, dates, published prices, etc and make extrapolations. I reckon this type of intel is especially useful if you're on a "list" but is probably otherwise just being mined and cataloged in case they need to interrogate the data at a later date. Cash is king when purchasing guns. Prepaid cards for bulk ammunition, though, shipping addresses are hard to hide. |
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Only "handgun", "long gun" or "other firearm" is transmitted to NICs. They don't get manufacturer, model, serial#, caliber or even if it rifle, shotgun, pistol, revolver, etc. Where do yall get this stuff? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/200-816.gif Yeah, don’t worry. I’m sure all they’re doing is downloading porn. Attached File |
---------------
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin, 1775
|
Originally Posted By Homesteader375: I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF. Originally Posted By Homesteader375: I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF. Thats good, because I'm an FFL as are at least four others in this thread.  I am saying that the ATF managed to identify the purchaser of Matthew Crooks' AR within 30 minutes and their explanations don't add up. His father called the cops and reported his son and firearm missing. It doesn't fit the conspiracy theories though. I work in government. When things work well they don't work that fast. I think that odds are that the government, through whatever sources they use, have a pretty good idea of what you have in your possession. They certainly have access to your financial information and who you paid money to. They see transfers. They can make correlations between transfers, amounts, dates, published prices, etc and make extrapolations. I reckon this type of intel is especially useful if you're on a "list" but is probably otherwise just being mined and cataloged in case they need to interrogate the data at a later date. Cash is king when purchasing guns. Prepaid cards for bulk ammunition, though, shipping addresses are hard to hide. If "the government" was that knowledgeable....then why the fuck do they call me when doing a firearms trace?  FFS. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By W_E_G: Yeah, don’t worry. I’m sure all they’re doing is downloading porn. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/105614/IMG_5038_jpeg-3352327.JPG Excellent rebuttal. 
|
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: Thats good, because I'm an FFL as are at least four others in this thread. His father called the cops and reported his son and firearm missing. It doesn't fit the conspiracy theories though. If "the government" was that knowledgeable....then why the fuck do they call me when doing a firearms trace? FFS. You don't need to be smug. Everyone knows you have an FFL. You've mentioned it numerous times in this very thread. You might be the type to argue with someone about their area of expertise. I'm not. I'm sure you're well informed about the standards and regulations surrounding the purchase and processing of firearms transactions. Per the ATF, they ran a trace via the West VA facility. They reported that because the FFL had closed shop and the records had been scanned into a computer, they could look through them more quickly. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's what they say happened. They called in the SN, traced the manufacturer, traced it to an FFL, located the FFLs non searchable records in a computer and visually inspected those until they found it... in 30 minutes. That's what they say happened: https://www.wvnews.com/news/wvnews/atf-traced-trump-rally-shooter-s-gun-using-records-stored-in-west-virginia-and-opposed/article_500b8462-479e-11ef-8c9d-33d31aa59ddf.html I find it to be pretty suspect. The only way it fits is if it were a searchable database, which it isn't supposed to be. I reckon the reason they call you to do a trace is because you sell guns that wind up being used in crimes. Why else do guns require tracing? Why do ATF agents land on people's doorsteps when they buy a bunch of freeze plugs, some steel tubing, and a 1/2 x 28 thread adapter talking about constructive intent? How about showing up at a diesel enthusiasts home referring to the filters he bought as suppressors, internet receipt in hand? You keep believing that there's no concerted effort to monitor the purchases of gun owners. ETA hot link |
|
Originally Posted By Homesteader375: You don't need to be smug. Originally Posted By Homesteader375: You don't need to be smug. It's difficult not to be when responding to someone that writes "I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF.", then goes on to tell the FFL's how gun traces work. Everyone knows you have an FFL. There are many FFL's in this thread and I'm pretty sure they would confirm exactly what I wrote. Per the ATF, they ran a trace via the West VA facility. They reported that because the FFL had closed shop and the records had been scanned into a computer, they could look through them more quickly. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's what they say happened. They called in the SN, traced the manufacturer, traced it to an FFL, located the FFLs non searchable records in a computer and visually inspected those until they found it... in 30 minutes. That's what they say happened: https://www.wvnews.com/news/wvnews/atf-traced-trump-rally-shooter-s-gun-using-records-stored-in-west-virginia-and-opposed/article_500b8462-479e-11ef-8c9d-33d31aa59ddf.html That was a search of out of business FFL records, not at all illegal. I find it to be pretty suspect. The only way it fits is if it were a searchable database, which it isn't supposed to be. You find it "suspect"........why exactly? ATF's out of business records are maintained in a format required by federal law. Other than "OMG 30 minutes!!!".......what leads you to believe that ATF has violated federal law? When WEB wrote "You know, the feds already have your phone number, and your social security number, and list of every gun that ever got run through a NICS". I responded with facts.....NICS doesn't get that info. If you had ever run a NICS check you would know that. So other than finding it "suspect", do you have any factual information that FBI NICS has a list of your guns? I'll wait. I reckon the reason they call you to do a trace is because you sell guns that wind up being used in crimes. Why else do guns require tracing? ATF National Tracing Center won't give the reason. In sixteen years I've had about 50 or so. One for a firearm still in my safe, one for a firearm still in my customers possession, one that a customer told me was stolen and the others have no idea why. I've never been asked to testify in any case so I'm guessing those traces were not crime guns, but just guns that a cop on the side of the road ran a NTC check on. Why do ATF agents land on people's doorsteps when they buy a bunch of freeze plugs, some steel tubing, and a 1/2 x 28 thread adapter talking about constructive intent? How about showing up at a diesel enthusiasts home referring to the filters he bought as suppressors, internet receipt in hand? First, there is no such animal as "constructive intent". What I think you are referring to is "constructive possession"......an example is a disassembled firearm is the same as a complete one. Or that being in possession of a short barreled AR upper, an AR rifle and no legal configuration......that might be considered as constructive possession of an SBR. See Constructive possession If ATF shows up at your door asking about a bunch of freeze plugs, some steel tubing, and a 1/2 x 28 thread adapter .....its likely they believe your are assembling silencers. And as some of the companies selling that crap admitted they were silencer parts, I'm sure ATF believed such investigation was legitimate under current law. You keep believing that there's no concerted effort to monitor the purchases of gun owners. I didn't write that. I addressed WEB and his belief that FBI NICS knows what guns you have. You've posted nothing to refute that. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: I've never been asked to testify in any case so I'm guessing those traces were not crime guns, but just guns that a cop on the side of the road ran a NTC check on. That's a nonstarter. Before initiating a trace there has to be a criminal case number entered into NTC. The guns can be run through NCIC to see if they were reported stolen, but not NTC. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: It's difficult not to be when responding to someone that writes "I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF.", then goes on to tell the FFL's how gun traces work. There are many FFL's in this thread and I'm pretty sure they would confirm exactly what I wrote. That was a search of out of business FFL records, not at all illegal. You find it "suspect"........why exactly? ATF's out of business records are maintained in a format required by federal law. Other than "OMG 30 minutes!!!".......what leads you to believe that ATF has violated federal law? When WEB wrote "You know, the feds already have your phone number, and your social security number, and list of every gun that ever got run through a NICS". I responded with facts.....NICS doesn't get that info. If you had ever run a NICS check you would know that. So other than finding it "suspect", do you have any factual information that FBI NICS has a list of your guns? I'll wait. ATF National Tracing Center won't give the reason. In sixteen years I've had about 50 or so. One for a firearm still in my safe, one for a firearm still in my customers possession, one that a customer told me was stolen and the others have no idea why. I've never been asked to testify in any case so I'm guessing those traces were not crime guns, but just guns that a cop on the side of the road ran a NTC check on. First, there is no such animal as "constructive intent". What I think you are referring to is "constructive possession"......an example is a disassembled firearm is the same as a complete one. Or that being in possession of a short barreled AR upper, an AR rifle and no legal configuration......that might be considered as constructive possession of an SBR. See Constructive possession If ATF shows up at your door asking about a bunch of freeze plugs, some steel tubing, and a 1/2 x 28 thread adapter .....its likely they believe your are assembling silencers. And as some of the companies selling that crap admitted they were silencer parts, I'm sure ATF believed such investigation was legitimate under current law. I didn't write that. I addressed WEB and his belief that FBI NICS knows what guns you have. You've posted nothing to refute that. Your response is rather histrionic. I'd like for you to point out how when I said: "I ain't arguing about what an FFL does or doesn't provide to the ATF. I am saying that the ATF managed to identify the purchaser of Matthew Crooks' AR within 30 minutes and their explanations don't add up. I work in government. When things work well they don't work that fast. I think that odds are that the government, through whatever sources they use, have a pretty good idea of what you have in your possession. They certainly have access to your financial information and who you paid money to. They see transfers. They can make correlations between transfers, amounts, dates, published prices, etc and make extrapolations. I reckon this type of intel is especially useful if you're on a "list" but is probably otherwise just being mined and cataloged in case they need to interrogate the data at a later date. Cash is king when purchasing guns. Prepaid cards for bulk ammunition, though, shipping addresses are hard to hide." that is was "telling you how a gun trace works". I think anyone can plainly see I was pointing out that I believe there are numerous ways the government collects data they use to track purchases and what they believe someone has purchased and from whom. Any reference to gun tracing was AFTER and only to recount the ATFs account of that specific trace. I think people generally understand how they work and don't need me to tell them. You claim that ATFs gun registry is compliant with the law. I'm glad you've been to WV, used your law degree and expertise in the Administrative Procedures Act and Executive oversight to assure through your detailed inspection that their processes are compliant with the law. My experience in government is pretty lengthy and I feel pretty justified in my skepticism of how fast that trace happened and how they claim it was done. Perhaps ATF is the one efficient agency in the government and it's just the rest of it that's riddled with bureaucracy. Listen, you might not be uncomfortable with the erosion of your rights. I am. If something doesn't seem right, it probably isn't. So WEB wrote something. I never said he was right. I simply said that there are ways the government can aggregate data they have access to in order to surmise what you probably have..."make extrapolations". So, if you're waiting for me to come up with definive evidence "that FBI NICS knows what guns you have", a claim I never made, screw. You can keep waiting. You can't try to make me prove someone else's argument for your satisfaction. Fact is, as I reflect on this interaction, and previous ones, I'll give you credit as a highly knowledgeable FFL. You do know your trade. That said, I find you're insufferably apologetic when it comes to the ATF and condescending to a lot of people and for that reason, I think I'm done with this exchange and I'll avoid you in the future. I don't come to bicker with anonymous people to no benefit. |
|
Originally Posted By Bubbles: That's a nonstarter. Before initiating a trace there has to be a criminal case number entered into NTC. The guns can be run through NCIC to see if they were reported stolen, but not NTC. Originally Posted By Bubbles: Originally Posted By DogtownTom: I've never been asked to testify in any case so I'm guessing those traces were not crime guns, but just guns that a cop on the side of the road ran a NTC check on. That's a nonstarter. Before initiating a trace there has to be a criminal case number entered into NTC. The guns can be run through NCIC to see if they were reported stolen, but not NTC. I've read that, but it doesn't explain the three guns I mentioned above....none were crime guns, none stolen. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By DogtownTom: I've read that, but it doesn't explain the three guns I mentioned above....none were crime guns, none stolen. You're not the only one I know who got a trace on a gun that was still in the safe. |
Heller II - Challenging DC's bans on semi-automatic rifles, large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, and its onerous and expensive handgun registration process. http://www.HellerFoundation.org/
|
Originally Posted By Homesteader375: that is was "telling you how a gun trace works". I think anyone can plainly see I was pointing out that I believe there are numerous ways the government collects data they use to track purchases and what they believe someone has purchased and from whom. Originally Posted By Homesteader375: that is was "telling you how a gun trace works". I think anyone can plainly see I was pointing out that I believe there are numerous ways the government collects data they use to track purchases and what they believe someone has purchased and from whom. Again, FBI NICS never gets any information other than Handgun/Long Gun/Other. Everything else you wrote is irrelevant. You claim that ATFs gun registry is compliant with the law. I didn't address whether ATF has a gun registry. I addressed out of business records. Again, if you have proof that ATF has a searchable gun registry database please provide proof because the NRA, GOA, 2AF and others would love to know. So WEB wrote something. I never said he was right. I simply said that there are ways the government can aggregate data they have access to in order to surmise what you probably have..."make extrapolations". So, if you're waiting for me to come up with definive evidence "that FBI NICS knows what guns you have", a claim I never made, screw. You can keep waiting. You can't try to make me prove someone else's argument for your satisfaction. So, in short you don't really know what the discussion was? Fact is, as I reflect on this interaction, and previous ones, I'll give you credit as a highly knowledgeable FFL. You do know your trade. That said, I find you're insufferably apologetic when it comes to the ATF I hate the ATF. But some people confuse an explanation of a subject with agreement. I can explain why the FBI NICS doesn't get firearm information, that doesn't mean I'm apologetic about FBI NICS. I can explain an ATF regulation yet not agree with it. Surely you understand that? and condescending to a lot of people and for that reason, I think I'm done with this exchange and I'll avoid you in the future. I don't come to bicker with anonymous people to no benefit. Never once have I claimed to be an expert or be smarter than anyone. But I can Google and I can take the time to read ATF regulations. If you take what I write as me showing superiority or being condescending...thats your problem, not mine. I hate reading bullshit and I'll respond when I see it. |
Plano, Texas...........the Gun Nut Capitol of Gun Culture, USA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pELwCqz2JfE
|
Originally Posted By Bubbles: That's a nonstarter. Before initiating a trace there has to be a criminal case number entered into NTC. The guns can be run through NCIC to see if they were reported stolen, but not NTC. True but the origin of most traces is local PD, often a single POC within the LEA, and there is no verification from NTC. They trace what gets submitted and have no way to verify it is from an active criminal investigation. Abuses have occurred. Now that most handguns have 3 SNs, traces often lead to wrong places as frames, BBLs and slides get mixed and matched. I have heard, but cannot verify, one of the most traced SNs is the model number on a Polymer80 (PF940V2, etc.) |
|
Originally Posted By RenegadeX: True but the origin of most traces is local PD, often a single POC within the LEA, and there is no verification from NTC. They trace what gets submitted and have no way to verify it is from an active criminal investigation. Abuses have occurred. Now that most handguns have 3 SNs, traces often lead to wrong places as frames, BBLs and slides get mixed and matched. I have heard, but cannot verify, one of the most traced SNs is the model number on a Polymer80 (PF940V2, etc.) Originally Posted By RenegadeX: Originally Posted By Bubbles: That's a nonstarter. Before initiating a trace there has to be a criminal case number entered into NTC. The guns can be run through NCIC to see if they were reported stolen, but not NTC. True but the origin of most traces is local PD, often a single POC within the LEA, and there is no verification from NTC. They trace what gets submitted and have no way to verify it is from an active criminal investigation. Abuses have occurred. Now that most handguns have 3 SNs, traces often lead to wrong places as frames, BBLs and slides get mixed and matched. I have heard, but cannot verify, one of the most traced SNs is the model number on a Polymer80 (PF940V2, etc.) Lol I ordered a mutt milsurp Mauser that had half a dozen different serials stamped on it, including 3 on the receiver. my FFL spent a couple minutes looking at them and scratching his head. Finally he just accepted the one that was on the vendor tag. |
"According to Argonne National Laboratory, it takes 100 pounds of battery in an EV to go a distance achieved by only one pound of gasoline in an ICE vehicle"
|
Originally Posted By W_E_G: Yeah, don’t worry. I’m sure all they’re doing is downloading porn. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/105614/IMG_5038_jpeg-3352327.JPG My first job out of college was in the large black cube! You should see my porn collection! And with all those dishes, we had 100x better TV options than DirecTV! |
Joined:
Jan 2024
Posts:
699
EE: 100% (94)
USA
|
Can I just pause the conversation for a moment as the OP here and express my gratitude during this season of Thanksgiving that this thread has actually run an informative course and inspired a friendly exchange of thoughts, opinions, and novel fact-sharing for the casual reader? Didn't think this is the can of worms my initial question would open up but I'm glad 
|