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Posted: 3/20/2019 1:05:01 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The other battle is that as soon as you idiot-proof anything, they built a better idiot. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 1:21:05 PM EDT
[#2]
 Audit ordered for Boeing after Ethiopian Airlines crash |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 1:55:08 PM EDT
[#3]
And now the rest of the story about Lion Air crash.
1) Day before crash, jumpseat pilot disengaged the MCAS system due to a bad AOA sensor. 2) Next day, Lion Air allowed plane to fly without replacing the AOA sensor. 3) Plane crashed because pilots never disengaged the MCAS due to the hardware fault. 4) US investigators are looking into reports Lion Air were using a second hand parts on the plane from an aircraft bone yard in Florida. 5) Indonesia is refusing to hand off critical documents to the air crash investigators. Lion Air knew there were safety problems with the plane and they flew it anyway. Airline mechanics tried four times to fix related issues on the plane starting Oct. 26, according to the Indonesia preliminary report. After pilots reported issues with incorrect display of speeds and altitude in the two prior flights, workers in Denspasar, Bali, replaced a key sensor that is used by the Boeing plane to drive down its nose if it senses an emergency. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 2:20:08 PM EDT
[#4]
I have seen reporting that the system was original certified to only apply a certain number of degrees trim, and that was changed later to be much more.
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Posted: 3/20/2019 2:34:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There is an "integrated standby flight display", it incorporates all standby instruments into one stand alone electronic display. It provides attitude, altitude, airspeed, heading and localizer/glide slope information. It has it's own attitude data source, and uses the alternate pitot and static sources. It's in-between the inboard two displays, at the top of the main panel. https://i.imgur.com/JrulaF7.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Which gauges have standalone backup? Altimeter was one, airspeed another, unsure now with glass cockpits featuring larger. It's in-between the inboard two displays, at the top of the main panel. https://i.imgur.com/JrulaF7.jpg Related, but differetn: According to the reprot, the system could self-reset whenever the pilot moved controls, allowed a fresh 2.5° of push each time the controls are moved, where the pilot would have to continually repeat disabling MCAS to keep the aircraft flying. Has that been noticed by any domestic airlines out as a 'known bug' with the workaround? Seems a stupid reason to reset something that was overridden. It'd be like a car where the cruise control resets every time you hit the brakes. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 2:45:25 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we didn't have merger mania from the 80's onward, we'd still have viable US competition for commercial planes. Now we've got too big to fail Boeing. |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 7:21:57 PM EDT
[#7]
Off-duty pilot reportedly saved Boeing 737 MAX from crashing day before disaster
An extra pilot, who hitched a ride on a Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX a day before its crash in October, saved it during an emergency strikingly similar to the one that proved fatal, Bloomberg reports. The new airliner plunged into the Java Sea killing all 189 people on board apparently due to a malfunction in an anti-stall system which pushed the nose of the aircraft down. A day before the crash the same aircraft experienced a similar problem but was saved by an off-duty pilot who realized what was happening and instructed the crew on how to stop the system from affecting the flight, the agency said. More |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:25:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Things are heating up.
 FBI to assist in Boeing 737 Max investigation |
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Posted: 3/20/2019 11:37:59 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryWhoever suggested dumping Boeing stock was giving good advice. This could end up huge. Hopefully the issues are corrected so the planes can fly again before waiting on all the investigations and hearings to complete. No need to lose airlines more money with the red tape if a comprehensive fix+training (not a 'workaround') is in place.
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:30:18 AM EDT
[#10]
FBI takes lead in criminal investigation of Boeing as aircraft maker is hit with subpoenas by U.S. government over its rollout of the 737 MAX planes - two of which crashed in span of five months.
The FBI has joined the criminal investigation into the certification of the Boeing Co’s 737 MAX, the Seattle Times reported on Wednesday, citing people familiar with the matter. This comes after Reuters reported that federal prosecutors and the U.S. Department of Transportation are scrutinizing the development of the 737 MAX jetliners in the wake of two deadly crashes in five months. The Department of Justice has issued a number of subpoenas as part of the investigation into the Federal Aviation Administration’s certification and marketing of the company’s 737 Max planes, CNN is reporting. Investigators have requested that the company turn over information about safety and certification procedures, including training manuals for pilots. They also want to examine how Boeing marketed the aircraft, sources told CNN. 
Investigators with the U.S. National Transportation and Safety Board (NTSB) look over debris at the crash site of Ethiopian Airlines Flight ET 302 on March 12, 2019 in Bishoftu, Ethiopia. The federal government is scrutinizing Boeing's rollout of the 737 Max 8 - the model which crashed.  Link |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:46:12 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whoever suggested dumping Boeing stock was giving good advice. This could end up huge. Hopefully the issues are corrected so the planes can fly again before waiting on all the investigations and hearings to complete. No need to lose airlines more money with the red tape if a comprehensive fix+training (not a 'workaround') is in place. From the discussions it seems like a Max (espcially -9 or -10) needs all the runway it can get. May be a matter of time before one runs out of runway and the circus starts over. 370 planes now vs. what, 5000 planes on order? If the new engines and winglets were the key to higher efficiency, dust off the 757 blueprints, add those plus a new cockpit and done. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:07:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
May be best if the Max is discontinued and the replacement hustled out. From the discussions it seems like a Max (espcially -9 or -10) needs all the runway it can get. May be a matter of time before one runs out of runway and the circus starts over. 370 planes now vs. what, 5000 planes on order? If the new engines and winglets were the key to higher efficiency, dust off the 757 blueprints, add those plus a new cockpit and done. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Whoever suggested dumping Boeing stock was giving good advice. This could end up huge. Hopefully the issues are corrected so the planes can fly again before waiting on all the investigations and hearings to complete. No need to lose airlines more money with the red tape if a comprehensive fix+training (not a 'workaround') is in place. From the discussions it seems like a Max (espcially -9 or -10) needs all the runway it can get. May be a matter of time before one runs out of runway and the circus starts over. 370 planes now vs. what, 5000 planes on order? If the new engines and winglets were the key to higher efficiency, dust off the 757 blueprints, add those plus a new cockpit and done. The more I read about the rushed cert and Obama's admin involved in "Well, you (Boeing) sign off on it, and we will too, since you're such nice guys". Well, That's how I read it, anyway. hard to get anything close to truth, though I'd wager that's closer to actual events than what's reported. Yes, a type rating is expensive, but pilots would like to be typed in more than one jet from things said, so long as they don't have to pay for training. I honestly thing the trust for the MAX planes is gone now that "FBI" and "Criminal Charges" has been said aloud. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:10:55 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They should have stopped stretching the 737. The 757 was spoken of well when it came out, but it cost too much (what a 737-max8 does now, it looks like). It's a type change, but there are a whole lot of benefits to the new type. Not sure why they only want one narrow body and 2 wide bodies, when narrow is what all but longest journeys use. 2 narrow and 2 wide should cover the spectrum. The more I read about the rushed cert and Obama's admin involved in "Well, you (Boeing) sign off on it, and we will too, since you're such nice guys". Well, That's how I read it, anyway. hard to get anything close to truth, though I'd wager that's closer to actual events than what's reported. Yes, a type rating is expensive, but pilots would like to be typed in more than one jet from things said, so long as they don't have to pay for training. I honestly thing the trust for the MAX planes is gone now that "FBI" and "Criminal Charges" has been said aloud. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 2:26:02 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
May be best if the Max is discontinued and the replacement hustled out. 
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 2:43:05 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 2:47:50 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 797 has been discussed for over a year and should overcome a lot of the deficiencies of a stretched 737. We will see. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? Boeing has been considering a clean sheet 737 replacement for introduction around 2030. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 3:17:46 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It has been discussed for a lot longer than a year. But the 797 is not a 737 replacement. It is aimed at the mid-market between the 737 and the 787. It will be a bit bigger than even the 757. Boeing has been considering a clean sheet 737 replacement for introduction around 2030. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? Boeing has been considering a clean sheet 737 replacement for introduction around 2030. 
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Posted: 3/21/2019 3:36:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
May be best if the Max is discontinued and the replacement hustled out.
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? I never suggested dumping the 737, but have an option between "737-(something)" or Airbus (a few options). Especially since Boeing bought M-D out to remove most other modern options. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 4:01:32 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? 
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Posted: 3/21/2019 4:43:56 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was hoping they get a verified fix to the MAX, not a workaround. At the same time, I suggested reviving the 757 so there's more than one Boeing option for shorter passenger flights. I never suggested dumping the 737, but have an option between "737-(something)" or Airbus (a few options). Especially since Boeing bought M-D out to remove most other modern options. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
May be best if the Max is discontinued and the replacement hustled out.
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? I never suggested dumping the 737, but have an option between "737-(something)" or Airbus (a few options). Especially since Boeing bought M-D out to remove most other modern options. Like I noted before, you don’t just casually restart a commercial airplane program. They may no longer have all of the tooling, the institutional knowledge is gone, the supplier networks and logistics chains are gone, even the factory floor space is gone. And that is before they have to re-engineer the thing with modern avionics, flight control systems, engines, etc to meet newer safety, emission and noise standards. And after all that expense, passenger airlines aren’t going to invest in 757s when the NMA is already in the works. It’s nothing more than a fanciful thought. Like the Army dumping the M16/M4 and returning to the M14. Someone else suggested dumping the 737 in its entirety. That’s who I quoted and was responding to. And MD had “modern models”? Holy shit, here we are lambasting Boeing for allegedly pushing the 737 too far, but MD stretching the DC-9, which entered service way before the 737, into the MD-80, then into the MD-90 and finally shrinking it back into the MD-95 is now “modern”? Like I said, this fukkin’ place... 
By the time of the merger, Boeing was a commercial airplane company with a defense side business and MD was a defense company with a commercial airplane side business. That is why the merger made so much sense and they fit together as well as they did. They complimented each other. Not addressed at you, but someone else claimed that Boeing moved their headquarters to Chicago to kiss the asses of Democrat politicians. No, they actually conducted a search sort of like Amazon just did. They wanted a good deal in a city with international recognition that didn’t favor either of the predecessor companies. They could have just stayed in liberal Seattle if they wanted to appease Democrats, but they wanted a headquarters somewhere that didn’t give the perception that they were just a commercial airplane company or just a defense company. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 7:14:21 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yep. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? The difference between Boeing and Airbus is a distinction without difference. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 9:31:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So we’re accusing Boeing of hustling the 737 MAX through development and certification AND saying that the solution is to hustle a clean sheet replacement through development and certification. This fuckin’ place...
A clean sheet replacement is minimum 5 years and billions of dollars away, and that is probably very conservative. In the meantime, the good news is that the Chinese have the Comac C919 ready to go now. Let’s just hand the single aisle market to them and Airbus. We don’t even know all of the details of these incidents, but fuck Globo-Boeing because things, amiright? Lets start a new rumor, these aircraft were deliberately crashed to support AOC's green new deal to ban airplanes and cow farts. It makes as much sense as a lot of the crap spewed here. "Boeing rushed the 737 Max" through certification. Newsflash! Boeing doesn't certify aircraft, the FAA does. I haven't heard a peep about looking into the FAA certification of the 37 MAX. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 9:51:20 AM EDT
[#23]
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux
Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 9:51:34 AM EDT
[#24]
Not fully on topic (but not far off), what is the prescribed contingency procedure in the event of a jammed stab jack screw in the post Alaska 261 era?
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Posted: 3/21/2019 10:05:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report https://www.foxnews.com/travel/ethiopian-airlines-pilot-of-doomed-flight-didnt-receive-training-on-new-simulator-report Quote HistoryQuoted:
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. 
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Posted: 3/21/2019 10:19:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not fully on topic (but not far off), what is the prescribed contingency procedure in the event of a jammed stab jack screw in the post Alaska 261 era? Other than hope it doesn’t get jammed in an extreme position, not sure what can really be done in the event of a total mechanical failure like that. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 10:22:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go inverted and crash? Other than hope it doesn’t get jammed in an extreme position, not sure what can really be done in the event of a total mechanical failure like that. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 10:23:00 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct! I have quite a few SWA friends that fly that aircraft, and they all say the same thing - "it was poor piloting". None of my SWA pilot friends can understand why those pilots simply didn't shut the trim system off and trim it manually. I'm not saying the MCAS is fault free, just that a competent pilot would have shut it off when it malfunctioned. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So Let me get this straight. The MCAS system get's a bad reading so it then automatically causes the plane to start trimming nose down. Pilot then notices shit ain't right. He then pulls on the yoke and sets the trim to proper angle. THen again the plane starts to trim down again. Pilot then notices it again. then so on a so forth until the plane ends up crashing But from what you all have said, the pilot just should have simply trimmed correctly the first time then dissocnnect the auto pilot and hand fly back to the air port? This is weird that it has only happened on foreign carriers. Is it that their pilots cant hand fly for shit? I've heard several US pilots say that when the AP can't keep the plane flying smooth they will disconnect and hand fly. Isn't there some other topic you can misinform on?
So what does the MCAS to? Is it just like an auto trim or somthing? Also...wasn't the B2 and not the F-117 that needed the computer help to fly? To certify it under the 737 type rating, they had to add "fixes" that made it behave like the original 737. The Boeing engineers submit their plan, and the FAA approves it. The MCAS system was only supposed to add a small pitch down action, just before a stall. Apparently, no engineers stopped to ask what would happen if the single trigger for the MCAS malfunctioned. They probably felt that the electric trim temporary override, and the Manual trim cutoff switch, would be enough. And it should be. Except, given enough random chance, the combination of a panicky third world pilot, and malfunctioning AOA is possible to occur in the same place and time. The MCAS should have required both airspeed, and AOA to trigger, and it should have been limited to only one small trim movement. Again, it's not that the Max is unstable, or unflyable without the MCAS. The MCAS wasn't needed to begin with. It was only added because of bureaucratic arrogance and overall "dumbing down" philosophy practiced by today's government/industrial complex. I would love to know who designed and approved it. My guess is politically correct employees/non pilots. Thanks for that. That makes a lot of sense. So, basically a Pilot typed in a 737 would have noticed the MCAS trimming down way too much and they would have just turned the MCAS off and set the trim manually ? I have quite a few SWA friends that fly that aircraft, and they all say the same thing - "it was poor piloting". None of my SWA pilot friends can understand why those pilots simply didn't shut the trim system off and trim it manually. I'm not saying the MCAS is fault free, just that a competent pilot would have shut it off when it malfunctioned. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 10:42:12 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
261 ultimately had a complete breakage and the stab started flapping in the breeze, literally. Not saying that would happen in my question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Go inverted and crash? Other than hope it doesn’t get jammed in an extreme position, not sure what can really be done in the event of a total mechanical failure like that. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 11:03:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The threads of the acme nut in the jackscrew assembly stripped out from lack of lubrication. The horizontal stabilizer flapped around a bit as it failed, eventually jamming in the full nose down position upon total failure. That is why it became uncontrollable, at one point they were trying to maintain flight upside down. Total shit sandwich. Their professionalism throughout the incident was pretty amazing, but ultimately nowhere near enough to overcome the mechanical failure. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 11:09:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We started inspecting our stab trim actuator systems a lot more after that crash. Now every 60 days we lube the jack shaft and check the brakes with a torque wrench. The only aircraft in the fleet with stab issues were the ex AS birds. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 11:24:00 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the common thread between this and the Lion air crash is pilot's that aren't really qualified to operate the aircraft they are flying. Yeah, we should totally ground the entire world fleet because third world going to third world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 11:25:06 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The crowd here in GD bashes the media over all things gun/leftist/democrat related. Yet these same folks are quick to believe the Lion/Ethiopia Air fables as if they were gospel from the same idiotic media. Lets start a new rumor, these aircraft were deliberately crashed to support AOC's green new deal to ban airplanes and cow farts. It makes as much sense as a lot of the crap spewed here. "Boeing rushed the 737 Max" through certification. Newsflash! Boeing doesn't certify aircraft, the FAA does. I haven't heard a peep about looking into the FAA certification of the 37 MAX. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:33:01 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct! I have quite a few SWA friends that fly that aircraft, and they all say the same thing - "it was poor piloting". None of my SWA pilot friends can understand why those pilots simply didn't shut the trim system off and trim it manually. I'm not saying the MCAS is fault free, just that a competent pilot would have shut it off when it malfunctioned. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:36:29 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the common thread between this and the Lion air crash is pilot's that aren't really qualified to operate the aircraft they are flying. Yeah, we should totally ground the entire world fleet because third world going to third world. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:40:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: watch the video by an AA pilot posted last page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78 the american pilots: "the system they had never heard of before called MCAS", not to mention pilots from other countries, Boeing didn't tell them the existence of MCAS, how could they know to shut it off? guess the intention is to hide the potential aerodynamic problem with software, but the software couldn't handle it properly so got the crashes. now Boeing issued "upgraded" software hope to fix the problem |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:42:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the inadequate training due to the third world airlines cheating, or are they just following the training processes laid out by Boeing? Various articles online claim that even US major pilots were flying the MAX after nothing more than a short training course on an iPad. Did any of the MAX pilots in this thread get time in a MAX specific simulator before they were flying it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. Because it doesn't matter, just shut it down. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:49:56 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That procedure is in place for all 737 models, and they would have been trained on it. The idea is that if the trim wheels move when they aren't supposed to, they go to that procedure. It doesn't matter if the trim wheels are moved by MCAS or by something else, in an ideal world, they should have seen/heard the trim move while autopilot was disconnected, and flipped the switches to turn off electric trim assist. My question is if it is reasonable to expect the crew to notice the trim being moved 100% of the time when other stuff is happening. Stuff like an erroneous stall warning and stick shaker activation due to bad instrumentation; bad instrumentation that also happens to activate MCAS. Maybe if the jet has handling characteristics that make bad piloting by third-worlders more dangerous, the automation that is supposed to "fix" it should have a bit more intelligence built into it. Automation for flight control surfaces that is even dumber than the seat/yoke interface sounds like a bad idea to me. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:54:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You may notice that in the bold face posted twice on the last page that the checklist doesn't once ask "Why is the stabilizer doing uncommanded movements that are making the jet unflyable?" Because it doesn't matter, just shut it down. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And now the rest of the story : Part Deux Lesson? Don't fly 3rd world airlines. Ethiopian Airlines pilot of doomed flight didn’t take training on 737 MAX simulator: report The captain of the doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 never received updated training on a Boeing 737 Max 8 simulator, even though the airline had the technology available since January, according to a report. Because it doesn't matter, just shut it down. Yes, a Tier-1 US Major Captain would have probably saved the day, and I am all for US Majors hiring the best of the best and paying them huge sums of money so that people get back on the ground safely even when the jet is doing everything it can to crash itself, but maybe Boeing can do a better job here too. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:55:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And like I've posted a couple times, how easy is it to miss the gradual, gentle uncommanded trim movement when you are getting enroneous instrument readings, the stick shaker is going off, and you are busy just trying to keep the jet from falling out of the sky? Yes, a Tier-1 US Major Captain would have probably saved the day, and I am all for US Majors hiring the best of the best and paying them huge sums of money so that people get back on the ground safely even when the jet is doing everything it can to crash itself, but maybe Boeing can do a better job here too. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 12:55:18 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have no idea why the guy in that video said that, I don't know him. I do know half a dozen of my SWA pilot friends who fly that aircraft and all of them know exactly what and where the Trim Cut Off switches are. Beyond that I as much in the dark as everyone else - but I'll trust my SWA pilot friends that they know what's going on in the cockpit (not all pilots are created equally  ). |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:03:36 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the common thread between this and the Lion air crash is pilot's that aren't really qualified to operate the aircraft they are flying. Yeah, we should totally ground the entire world fleet because third world going to third world.
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:04:52 PM EDT
[#43]
NYT says that the crashed jets lacked an AoA disagree light in the cockpit because Boeing charges extra for it, and the airlines didn't want to pay.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:12:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NYT says that the crashed jets lacked an AoA disagree light in the cockpit because Boeing charges extra for it, and the airlines didn't want to pay. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:35:12 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NYT says that the crashed jets lacked an AoA disagree light in the cockpit because Boeing charges extra for it, and the airlines didn't want to pay. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html Car manufacturers offer optional safety features at additional cost, too. Customers get a basic level of safety and can pay for more advanced features if they want them. It keeps the base cost down for price conscientious customers. Where is the outrage? We should just mandate that everything has every bit of safety technology available. Can’t afford a new car? Tough shit, it is safer to walk anyhow. Take a bus and live closer to shit. Can’t afford to fly now? You probably don’t really need to anyhow. Just ask AOC. Do stuff locally and video conference for business. Then we’ll hear no end about how drivin’ n flyin’ is racis’ and privileged. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:41:23 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
NYT says that the crashed jets lacked an AoA disagree light in the cockpit because Boeing charges extra for it, and the airlines didn't want to pay. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html My guess is that the FAA will end up requiring Boeing to provide a disagree warning to (re)certify the aircraft. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:43:47 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh, they allow customers to choose what they feel they need and balance their own priorities. Seems the problem is when operators want to go cheap on equipment AND maintenance AND pilot training. I guess we should just dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator, deskill the pilot craft and automate the whole process. Car manufacturers offer optional safety features at additional cost, too. Customers get a basic level of safety and can pay for more advanced features if they want them. It keeps the base cost down for price conscientious customers. Where is the outrage? We should just mandate that everything has every bit of safety technology available. Can’t afford a new car? Tough shit, it is safer to walk anyhow. Take a bus and live closer to shit. Can’t afford to fly now? You probably don’t really need to anyhow. Just ask AOC. Do stuff locally and video conference for business. Then we’ll hear no end about how drivin’ n flyin’ is racis’ and privileged. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
NYT says that the crashed jets lacked an AoA disagree light in the cockpit because Boeing charges extra for it, and the airlines didn't want to pay. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/business/boeing-safety-features-charge.html Car manufacturers offer optional safety features at additional cost, too. Customers get a basic level of safety and can pay for more advanced features if they want them. It keeps the base cost down for price conscientious customers. Where is the outrage? We should just mandate that everything has every bit of safety technology available. Can’t afford a new car? Tough shit, it is safer to walk anyhow. Take a bus and live closer to shit. Can’t afford to fly now? You probably don’t really need to anyhow. Just ask AOC. Do stuff locally and video conference for business. Then we’ll hear no end about how drivin’ n flyin’ is racis’ and privileged. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 1:46:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Comac C919 ready to go now. Consider all the information, it also looks to me that Boeing has stretched the role of the base 737 to it's limits. Probably a bit beyond. Hence the step climb, the higher take off speed plus longer runway needed, and the MCAS system. I don't like flying in any super-stretched single isle plane because it takes too long to board and disembark. It would be nice if gates used both doors. I liked the 757 with the three doors even if the gate only uses the front two. That way 1st class passengers are not standing in the isle stowing their gear, getting pillows, etc., while the airline is trying to board the economy section. |
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Posted: 3/21/2019 2:15:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In a country where people shit in the same pot they cook with, AoA is considered to be a known concept? 
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Posted: 3/21/2019 2:19:20 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not fully on topic (but not far off), what is the prescribed contingency procedure in the event of a jammed stab jack screw in the post Alaska 261 era? Also, as Smiling Bandit was talking about on a page or two beforehand, the stab brake is engaged while the stab is running one way and you push/pull on the control column opposite direction to engage the stab brake. On the E-3/707, we would verify the stab brake engages properly during every preflight, as well as proper operation of electric trim and manual trim, and verify the stab cut out switches work properly. Our cutout switches were not safety wired or anything. |
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