They are their own thing. Most of the current modeling is close enough for your brain to think Fender or Marshall, but with its own character. I don't think most people people could blind test tell the difference between these new UA pedals and the real amps when a studio pro dials them in like in the video. This goes for other digital solutions too, not just the new UA pedals.

Leo mixes in real Plexi and Dlx Reverb in comparison between two modelers (a budget one and mid-priced POD Go)..

They key phrase is "when studio pros dial them in"

...since what most people compare modelers to is a recording where a studio pro dialed in a mic'd amp...?

I have a 5W tube amp and a couple pedals I use also and I do SXS regularly and the only difference is all subjective stuff experienced by the player that wouldn't matter to someone listening to the two in a blind test. In my experience, playing and talking to friends that gig, input/output gain need to be tweaked if you aren't  getting enough "amp in the room" feel.

Not even close to me but I can also say that digital can sound good.

At the same time a project I’m doing, the guitarist did everything with sims as he had before and it sounds fine. This is an extreme metal situation here. But we had a friend “re-amp” the guitars and it’s like a whole other world of sound. Depth and air and thump.

I’ve had and used both. Still use digital sometimes. But it’s amps for me and my tastes.

To go a different direction I chased the tone on the album “You Were Never Alone” by Emery for a while. Trying to find out what was used, etc. I knew the guitarist had various Marshall and Vox amps.

Turns out he used a Kemper. Sounds killer. But then compared to their older stuff with real amps, the real amps win again.

Live crowds may not care in the majority but some totally do. I’m one of those nerds.

I’ve been using some different modeling options for years. The best one has been my Headrush system. The models are so close that I don’t miss my amps playing my church gig at all. It gets 95-98% there. Plus the convenience of having a full pedal board in the same box with the touch screen and all the options is a revelation.

Been using Headrush too and have finally figured out how to get the most of the Plexi sims but considering getting a NUX Amp Academy since I'm a home player.  Analysis paralysis and all, thinking I need to play more, tweak less...  modeling seems decent in the Amp Academy also.

I agree completely.  I've been using Scuffham Amps for 99% of my in-house sessions.  The majority of my clients love not having to drag an amp.

I actually sold off a ton of my vintage amps and don't miss them.

Plug-ins work for some, but I want the feel of traditional playing with a speaker and pedalboard, but still use modeling. I guess I could have used midi but seems like a lot of extra hardware.

ETA: I've been farting around with hybrid rigs for a while. Using the digital pre-amp modeling in this cheap Donner Multipad-100, cab sims off, into my 5W. The Donner is just for when I want to play on headphones somewhere other than my office/studio and for travel but the preamps are at least "not awful" when hitting the front of the amp. The Mod Core Dlx pedal is also digital and a hidden gem.  Very lush rotary, vibe, and tremolo. They disappeared from the market during Coovies shutdown.

Of course.

I'm anxious for the day when we can stop the comparison BS. It's pointless. I even think we should drop the word modeler. It's like calling a car a horseless carriage. At some point, people realized that cars were their own thing, and they stopped associating them with horses. I believe we need to stop associating digital guitar processing with amps. Digital is its own thing.

For a while, the makers of digital consoles were tripping over themselves trying to make their products behave like analog consoles, in order to cater to old school sound guys. It only caused annoyances. Now they've dropped the pretense, coming right out and saying that their newest digital boards have none of the trappings of analog.

probably get flamed but I always thought of sims and moduling of amps to be kind of stupid.
You get the tone you want or you dont.
All these sims and cabinet captures and what not.
Ive been playing guitar for 35 years and I either like the tone I get or not.
Seems like a lot of work and effort.  Its just a bunch of tonal presets.
Like wow I got the reverb of a Paris cathedral bro.
A PARIS CATHEDRAL BRO! and a aural capture of Zach Wyldes vintage Marshall 4x12 with one speaker blown.
You got to HEAR IT!!
lol.  Sorry Im ranting.
The guitar world has been touting these features for decades.
Every few years its something new.
Still sounds like guitar to me.
Distortion, overdrive, compressor, delay, reverb, chorus, phaser.
So much time spent on tone.  


forgot wah, wah,wah,wah,wah,wah,wah.
Im such a crybaby.....

I've been saying that for long time, too. And, the comparisons shit on the utility of modeling completely.

I don't need an exact, specific model of an exact, specific amp in an exact, specific listening environment. That's useless to me except in an "interesting achievement" situation.

Fuck, there are 65' Reverbs that have a hard time sounding like a good 65' Reverb, because of the variables, speakers, environment, power, components.

I have some models/patches that, quite honestly, sound BETTER than the amp they're meant to replicate, and some that don't. Eh, I take the good, and love the utility, versatility and repeatability any day.

I agree with you completely.

And I always thought Dumbles sound like crap unless played by a guy that would sound good playing through a 5w gorilla SS amp or hit in the front with multiple tube screamers. You can just create your own amps now digitally. I really like an Vox cab with a Twin Reverb amp for instance. I can't afford either.

Got a Line6 Helix about a month ago. My Marshall and pedals will probably be up for sale very soon. It’s that good.

Funny, just this weekend I was A/B- ing my G3n's version of a JCM 800 against a 25w clone head, both through a 4x10 I built with the absolute cheapest speakers I could find ($8 each).  I'm not chasing a JCM 800 sound, I just happen to have these things already and thought it would be a fun experiment.  Can't say which was more "authentic", but I liked the ZOOM (digital) better.  For the most part I don't care if something sounds "right", only if it sounds good.  Doesn't matter to me if there are better options on the market since that's likely where they'll stay.

Looks like the digital side is beginning to see the light and expanding from the tradition of "modeling" classic amps.  A firmware update for my G3n gave me a new digital hi-gain amp (Krampus) that's proprietary and not meant to replicate anything.  It's actually really nice.  The newer models have even more proprietary digital amps.  It's great to see some affordable innovation.

But that's the point for me: I like variety, I like to tinker, and I hate spending money.  A $200 MFX lets me goof around as much as I want to at home--whether I'm copying something or working on my own stuff--without costing another thin dime, and it's still plenty suitable for gigging at church (or any other venue with a decent PA).  I'd be willing to bet that I could even dial in a few patches for recording.  I've been using it for years and still haven't explored half of it.  My current limitations with it are the amount of processing power and the number of effects I can employ, and this is almost bottom tier.  I can't even imagine what a Helix or Kemper can do.

I like stuff simple.  I feel like I can hear a difference at TIMES.  I don't see how feedback is the same without a speaker.  

I like sitting in front of my amp listening to how it sounds. I've never had expensive amps so I like making sounds with cheaper stuff.  

The amp sims seems like the furthering of people getting all gaga about what brand of amp they have at their fingertips.  So now they don't have to spend a bunch of money on several amps.  It's gotta be heaven for you guys like that.  I typically use my Vox Cambridge with an 8" celestion bulldog.  I don't gig guitar, just bass. (well I sometimes play guitar at church but most times it's an acoustic)  I use a fender rumble 100 Gen II.  I like the way both of those amps sound a LOT.  And they don't even have tubes.  Well technically the vox has small tubes for the preamp.  Which I do think it gives it some warmth.  But the Fender rumble sounds really good to my ears and it's all solid state.

Would something expensive sound much better?  Probably.  Would amp sims sound better in my recordings?   Maybe, but I agree with what the one guy said.  It's all in the knowledge you apply and what you hear to any tool you use.  sims or things you have to lug around.  

I use my ears for my cheap stuff and I think it's suffices for me.  But some might go, oh my gosh that sounds cheap.  IDK.  I won't ever have money for supros or fenders and I won't probably spend the time to go through countless settings in an amp sim.  Most of the time I use a guitar amp my setting are close to 12 oclock, well not always, but the guitar is the guitar and the amp is the amp.  Like someone said, either they sound good to me or they don't.  I don't have a lot of pedals but gaining a few here and there in the last few years.  For a long time all I thought necessary was an amp with distortion and clean.  I tend to play clean a lot or just a bit of break up.  

The even bigger question for me is how does it sound along with the other instruments.  Even though I'm a guitarist and have been playing for a long time, it's rare I hear any electric guitar tone and think it sounds freaking awesome on it's own.  To me that only applies to acoustics and bass for the most part.  And drums and singing.  But electrics that I don't like the way they sound on their own can sound really good in a song.   And if an electric sounds really good on it's own, it doesn't usually do much in a song.  

I think I'm really a bass player at heart but I play drums, bass and guitar.  And sing.  To me the two most important elements to music are the vocals, and the beat.  The rest just sort of supports that.  And if I wanted to write music, it was easier to do with a guitar.  I sometimes have a hard time hearing all the notes that are possible for vocals if I just have my bass.  Maybe that's all a weird perspective.  LOL.  

Those are my ramblings.  

I do not fault anyone for using sims.  It seems like a whole new way of having fun.  UNLESS they're furthering the snobbery that seems to be pervasive with many guitarists....  Sorry, but that's my perspective.  ESPECIALLY Strat guys.  LOL.   Anyways, it's not for me at this point.  I reserve the right to change my mind at any point.  LOL.

I always thought that to. Until I played a vt120 og blue face Vox.  I feel like they are good, but also feel like they are trying to push these,  "just as good" new pedals on me,  and at $499?

There’s some tones you can’t get with the modelers. You have to get the amps so loud and hot to get some of the power tubes to start going microphonic to achieve them. Can’t do that with a computer.

I agree with most, that they are best for most situations unless you need a very specific tone they can’t provide.

Worst part about tube amps right now is the worldwide tube supply. Go to Eurotubes.com and check out how many different types of tubes are completely out of stock. Now, they sell JJ’s (made in Slovakia), but still the only countries manufacturing tubes are Russia, Slovakia, and China (I think there’s a very small operation in the US too, but nothing major). Recently, one of the Chinese factories burned down, Russia is Russia, and the Slovakian JJ plant is facing supply shortages. If I lose a tube, I’m gonna be ponying up $25-40 for a simple 12AX7 from guitar center… absolutely absurd when the same tubes were $7-14 per back just 5-6 years ago.

Edit: Never mind. All the tubes I checked out on GC are “reserve now” or available for preorder. Zero in stock.

They are close enough when the rest of the band is playing.  Guitar players with magic ears can probably tell the difference.  Most everyone else can't.

Nope, that’s where the modelers shine. They’ve definitely got their place.

I'll try to record some video of me getting feedback with my MX5.  It's the same as a tube amp, you just negotiate your position and direction with the speaker. I use a powered speaker so feedback works the same as with a tube amp. My A/C condenser and capacitor for my studio shit the bed in 100+ degree heat yesterday so I won't be in there for a few days....

I really think some people would benefit from some time with a good modeler.  The Vox VT was mentioned above and I had a VT80+ and while it was good with fender and vox tones, it was about as good as the old pocket POD with everything else.  That is old gen modeling compared to what's in even the budget modelers such as NUX MG-30, POD Go, Headrush MX5, Valeton GP-200.  You can't just plug these in and go, you will have to spend some time with them to dial in levels but you can get something more similar to amp controls with the NUX Amp Academy, which I'm considering but you need a PC to do initial setup.

This is something I think folks don’t understand with modelers. One shouldn’t expect the same amount of sustain and feedback as a loud tube amp in a room vs a modeler in headphones/small studio monitors.

Something I've been monkeying with for a few days since I picked up a G5n locally for a good price:



Running them in series let me essentially double the processing power and effects limits.  First unit does all the input filtering and boosts then ends with an amp model.  Second unit adds a cab sim and all the wet effects.  It would be more interesting if these guys could output stereo signal chains (apart from a couple of CPU-hungry stereo effects the L & R outputs are identical), but the signal chain I put together was super versatile.  I could do a few more of those patches that would be easily switchable/combine-able while gigging to have a ton of different sounds available on a single PA channel.  Or I could use a small class-D amplifier to drive my 4x10.

Currently I'm doing a legit Wet/Dry stereo setup with the ABY pedal.  Each unit gets a raw guitar signal to process independently then outputs direct to my mixer so I can play through my desktop monitors.  I've got a powered sub on order to help with lows, but so far I like it a lot.  I'm having fun experimenting with all the options and getting some really useable tones at levels that don't annoy my wife/kids/neighbors.  Decent rig that's not as portable as the G3n alone but still pretty easy to fit all in one bag for weekly church duties.

You bring up a good point.  Everyone (almost) rags on Peavey Sheffield speakers - but they don't really "work" right until you get the volume up.   If you are running a 120 watt 5150 II at "just barely open" on the volume, yeah, they are fizzy.  Bedroom volumes are not what they are designed to do - they are designed to take a high power spanking, cut through the mix, and not flub out.

Some situations a modeller is the right choice.  You might need to get on a plane with a guitar and a Helix or such and report to a studio or even a live event with no opportunity to bring or rent amps, cabs, mics, cables.  In almost all cases the audience isn't going to be able to tell the difference with their ears.

However, there is still a little bit of difference, especially in the response of the guitar to feedback and moving air.  Yeah, you can get that with the modeller, but then you are right back to either dragging an amp and cab, or having it in your monitor - IF you have a monitor, which is one more thing to lug to the gig.

Yes it is one of the best out there.  My bandmate has one & is talking about selling his Marshals and Line 6 head and cabs.  I get it.  On bass, I've even occasionally plugged straight into the board at gigs as my basses have active preamps in them.

However, on guitar, the best sound I have gotten is a Peavey Tubefex in the effects loop of a 5150 II into a matching 4X12 cab.  Unfortunately about the time I had it all figured out the Tubefex went out.  I'm hoping it can be fixed.

Tubes don't fail as often as some people think.  Even if they go microphonic, you can often swap them between the pre-amp and the phase inverter and go right along.  How hot the power tunes are biased has a huge effect on tube life - the early Van Halen sound is essentially 6CA7 tubes being fried in a Marshal amp.  The Peavey 5150 series has a notoriaty for being biased "cold" but crossover distorion is part of what makes them sound the way they do, and it also extends power tube life.  

Also if you are willing to slum a bit and install tested used tubes, or "pulls", and aren't too picky about the name silk-screened on the glass you can get tubes.  Some of the tubes looked down upon in the day, like the 12AX7 Sovtek LPS are now highly desired for some applications.

Get Both? I have a stereo Orange setup  and a ton of pedals, I like the Neural DSP plugins and I have an HX Stomp that sounds really great. I also like to use the stomp direct into the power amp and run it 4 cable with pedals.

More options are good.

Technophobes...

Guess who uses an amp modeler for their live performances:

The Edge, Metallica, Adrian Belew, Keith Urban, and Joe Satriani (and others).

If you like your tube amps great, enjoy.  There is nothing wrong with that.  If you think an Axe-Fx is somehow inferior than you might be a doofus...

https://www.fractalaudio.com/artists/

The guy that used to use an effects rack the size of a side-by-side refrigerator freezor?  He replaced that with modelers and mulit-effects?  Shocked, SHOCKED I am ...

John Mayer, Steve Vai, John Petrucci, Alex Lifeson, Neal Schon, Def Leopard, Steve Stevens, Andy Summers, and more...

He also still uses some really nice examples of Fender tweeds in isolation cabinets along with his modeling gear live.

Newest version of my hybrid rig. The MG-30 replaced the MX5. I like the UI better on the NUX and the modeling is on par with the MX5 at least with the amps I use.

Go to 1:30

My problem with modeling has become "analysis paralysis". Infinite choices.
I have a Fender Blues Deluxe with my pedal board having TC MojoMojo as heart of the setup.
Also a Mesa Studio 22, a Hughes and Kettner Tubemiester.
Picked up a Marshall Core 50 modeling amp to experiment.
For live gigs they all work but and the Core 50 was really convenient by having all the effects built in a light compact powerful amp, but the hours of setting up presets. Finally just went back simple pedal and amp.
In my home studio recording was different. Too many noises and rattles from the room to mic at tube amp recording levels.  Amp sims in the DAW give so many choices, I can spend hours exploring different settings and never get anything done.
I had a Vox MV50 that I tried plugging direct to the interface using the headphone out which has a cabinet sim.
Run my pedalboard on the front end and dial in the sound. It worked great, just add some reverb/delay in the DAW and it sounds good, although you are committed to the sound of the take, just like micing, but I'm old school. I just picked up a Joyo Tweedy that does the same thing but sounds more like a Fender tweed amp and has an effect loop. I am really impressed.
This could replace my live rig and just go directly to the board.

I haven't watched the linked videos but I'll admit the emulations have improved dramatically.

I've played guitar for 35 years.  I've owned Marshalls, modded marshall style amps, plexis, AC 30 clones, Boogie Mk IV, vintage Fenders.  I always said that digital emulations are crap and will never feel or respond like the real thing.

But the current stuff is getting really close.

I have a UAD Apollo and I've been testing out their emulation of the Fender Tweed Deluxe.  It's ridiculous.  It responds and feels like the real thing.  Responds to picking dynamics.  Cleans up when you play softly and compresses when you dig in.  Plays and sounds just like a real amp.  I didn't think they'd get to this point.  I know when it is recorded and mixed it is virtually indistinguishable from a real amp but I never thought they'd get to a point where you can track through one and have the distinct impression you are sitting in the control room playing your guitar and listening to a real miced up amp playing through the monitors.

I still prefer real amps because after this many years it is just easier for me to throw a couple of mics up, twiddle some knobs, and get a sound I'm happy with whereas I struggle with the emulations due to the sheer array of options.  Most any real amplifier I can crank it up and mess with a few knobs (vol, gain, eqs) and get my sound in just a few minutes whereas with an emulation it seems like I can spend hours switching back and forth.  And there's also the sheer joy of having real speaker cones blowing my pantlegs back moving air in the room.  But the emulations really are getting impressive these days.

Yup, Me too

Me as well with analysis paralysis, but I settled on a modeler that does just a few amps well, instead of 100 amps "so-so."  I have about 5 amps I use regularly in the MG-30:

1990 Vibro King
Diezel VH4
57 Tweed
68 Plexi 100w
85 Dual Rectifier

I do miss the HR MX5's ability to run multiple amp chains where I could conjure up better Tool and Metallica studio rigs but for a hobby player I can still get pretty close for my needs.  

I can see why players like Pete Thorn need a ton of really good amp sims since they might be playing with acts of so many different genres. Sounds like he and others seem to gravitate towards Kemper and Quad Cortex where they can profile their own actual tube amps. That tech boggles my mind..

As much as I hate to admit it and after having spent countless thousands on some damn good amps, 90 percent of my playing is done through Overloud THU and Neural DSP. What is even better about the digital shit now is the ability to reamp. Impulses, impulses, impulses. Modeling is so much better than when I first got into it (Line6 Pod).

I still tell myself I can feel the difference between a badass tube amp and modelers but I don't know if I can really hear the difference anymore. If I could only have one it would be the real deal but, that is just my bias talking.

It's like having a home invasion and getting shot while trying to pick what gun to use. Lol
Its hard enough deciding which guitar to use.

Add pedal sims.  

I just bought one of these a few days ago and I must say I'm pretty pleased with the sound.  I have a Marshal dsl 5 but I think the boss is going to kick it aside. And to top it off it takes pedals very well

I love my amplitube max 5 running through an axe io controller. Ikm iloud monitor speakers and subwoofer.

I never use my tube amp and pedal board anymore.