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Posted: 1/23/2021 10:39:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesnt seem like we tried to win VN at all. IIRC it came out in recent years that we were disclosing bombing targets ahead of time, and limiting attacks to ineffective targets anyway. I havent studied why that was, but how can you win a war with that strategy? Well, that wasn't the strategy, for one. Here's a good read of what was really going on in terms of bombing targets. https://www.nsa.gov/Portals/70/documents/news-features/declassified-documents/cryptologic-histories/purple_dragon.pdf |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 10:44:05 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What Treaty? The legal documents of relevance were UNSCR 82 and 83, which call on he North to return to their side of the 38th parallel. But the mandate of the UN forces wasn't so limiting, calling for "such assistance to the Republic of Korea as may be necessary to repel the armed attack and to restore international peace and security in the area." That's a broad mandate, and can easily be interpreted as destroying the commie fucks who caused the problem to begin with. The treaty at the end of WW2 that divided the former colonies like Korea and Vietnam. Was that Potsdam? We just wanted status quo ante. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 10:44:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Liberals won because Communism was not destroyed and they got rid of the Republican that pulled us out.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 10:53:34 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The treaty at the end of WW2 that divided the former colonies like Korea and Vietnam. Was that Potsdam? We just wanted status quo ante. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What Treaty? The legal documents of relevance were UNSCR 82 and 83, which call on he North to return to their side of the 38th parallel. But the mandate of the UN forces wasn't so limiting, calling for "such assistance to the Republic of Korea as may be necessary to repel the armed attack and to restore international peace and security in the area." That's a broad mandate, and can easily be interpreted as destroying the commie fucks who caused the problem to begin with. The treaty at the end of WW2 that divided the former colonies like Korea and Vietnam. Was that Potsdam? We just wanted status quo ante. That originally established the 38th parallel as the line for occupation responsibilities in Korea? Good question... I don't know. And, wikipedia and others sources a quick google search pulls up are filled with passive voice bullshit. I doubt it would have been discussed at Potsdam, probably just something hashed out bilaterally with Stalin. Definitely not a treaty, though. The Japanese surrender document was famously short and to the point. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 10:54:51 PM EDT
[#5]
Did we win? Yes. The norks got pushed back into their own territory and a lot of communists got deaded. 51 million free people live in South Korea and they are still a very good ally. I would call that a win.
Was it an unconditional surrender of the norks and chinese and did we keep everything all the way up to the Yalu? No. MacArthur had his faults but I place just as much blame on Truman for the outcome. Things could have been much different. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:00:46 PM EDT
[#6]
The damned CPC did a mass attack and now we are all stuck with Norks shooting missiles and rockets all over the place, cause its a puppet state controlled by CPC.
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:22:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Korea, win. The U.S. stated goal was to push the DPRK back to their orginial lines, which we more or less did.
Vietnam Loss, Could have won, but congress (demms) cut funding to the South Vietnamese military which was part of our treaty obligations. Once those cuts were in the South Vietnamese military panicked and disintegrated. Laos, loss Cambodia, loss, but also a catastrophe for Vietnam and communist's movements in the region. Thailand, win Did not need to be in Vietnam in the numbers we were deployed in to attain our goals. The conventional army made it a conventional war and lost it for us. LBJ should have shut it down, Nixon changed courses got rid of Westmoreland and let Abrams run a better smaller war. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:25:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did we win? Yes. The norks got pushed back into their own territory and a lot of communists got deaded. 51 million free people live in South Korea and they are still a very good ally. I would call that a win. Was it an unconditional surrender of the norks and chinese and did we keep everything all the way up to the Yalu? No. MacArthur had his faults but I place just as much blame on Truman for the outcome. Things could have been much different. The residents around, and especially north of, the Han River Estuary would likely question whether the 38th parallel goal was ever met. And Truman wasn't a self-proclaimed military genius who let his first ever U.N. Army get infiltrated and almost annihilated by hordes of Communists while he was stroking himself off over his brilliant victory and ignoring all calls for restraint. Had he listened to Truman, the Chinese may never have even felt compelled to join, and we might be living in a reality where a small demilitarized zone was all that remained of "North" Korea. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:26:21 PM EDT
[#9]
Vietnam was technically won and they gave up.
Paris Peace Accord It was the democrat party that stopped supplying our allies in the region, and the NVA fired up the war machine again and took over. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:26:38 PM EDT
[#10]
What was gained vs what was the total human cost and political cost to our side right here at home.
What you see on the left in America today was born out of the Vietnam War protests. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:34:48 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What was gained vs what was the total human cost and political cost to our side right here at home. What you see on the left in America today was born out of the Vietnam War protests. That movement started with the anti-nuke protests and would have found something else to latch on to should the free world have dared to stand up to Communists anywhere else. |
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Posted: 1/23/2021 11:55:51 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Someone made the point (here, I think) that we actually "won" in SE Asia, since we actually did stop the spread of that vile, putrid, always-fatal disease known as commienism.  While China fell, India and Japan never did, and they are free to this day b/c of that (and us, and our sacrifice of blood).Granted, I would say we did a MUCH better job of pulling out of Korea, since we gradually de-escalated & turned it over to those who were most willing to fight & die for their freedom, the South Koreans. In Vietnam, OTOH, it looks to me like we ran like cowardly dogs w/ our tails between our legs, and left all the records behind so's our South Vietnam friends were left dangling in the wind, and of course were  I would say (with my admittedly VERY imperfect understanding of these conflicts) that this was the fault of Nixon, who was so eager to score political points, that he was perfectly willing to leave good men to die, so long as it made him look good.   Or am I all wet? Am I wrong? Did Nixon do it right, and made the best of a shitty situation, where the best you could do was hope the shit on the stick didn't end up getting all over your hands? Certainly, I couldn't say one American boy who died/was wounded in those conflicts died for a good reason...  Or was it a good cause?
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:01:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ask a South Korean who won. The goal of North Korea and the Red Chinese was a unified Korea under communist rule. They failed to achieve that. Compare the two Koreas today. South Korea is a modern, economically secure, industrial and technologically advanced free country. North Korea is a starving, backwards totalitarian police state. I ask you; Who won the Korean War? And there it is. Would that we had done so well with the Vietnam "war", instead of letting the commies in our own country win. As the Vietnam general said, "We won the war not on the battlefield, but on American college campuses."  |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:04:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: we never win anything due to lying conniving politicians who just want to line their own pockets Sort of like, yanno, the 2020 "election", and the RINO republicans who went along with the blatant vote fraud...
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:09:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Vietnam - stop the spread of communism in southeast Asia. Did that. That is a win in my book. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:38:15 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And now china is about to get our booty. You sure? Yup. We won in Korea and Vietnam. If China wants a war with us, ok. Bring it. We will curb stomp them too. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:46:20 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We didn't win. We left We won in Vietnam. There was a treaty signed and the NVC agreed to stop fighting. We promised South Vietnam that we would give them equipment and money to build up their military to prevent the North from invading again. Democrat politicians refused to send the funds and let the NVC know that we would no longer help South Vietnam. The North took over after having been defeated, and claimed victory. All the dems would have had to do is declare that we would back the south and the north would have stayed put and not invaded, but the dems went out of their way to let the NVC know we were out for good... |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:47:22 AM EDT
[#18]
 "It Was A Tie!" - A Fish Called Wanda (Airport Scene, Vietnam, Winners) |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:52:17 AM EDT
[#19]
So many red pill morsels itt.
Did we "win" in Iraq/Afghanistan? Remember when the left was against hawking foreign wars? That was awesome. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:57:22 AM EDT
[#20]
In order to frame this appropriately, you have to look at the greater historical context of American foreign policy at the time. Korea was a win. We halted the spread of communism, and showed our allies our resolve in curbing the tide.
In Vietnam, we ended up not preventing the spread of communism to the south, but look at what happened immediately following that. Nixon opened up China, and we broke up their bromance with the USSR. This allowed for us to take pieces off the board economically which ultimately led to the fall of the Soviet Union. Whether or not the two are correlated is probably debatable, but things seemed to have worked out in our favor from a geopolitical perspective. We made the right moves to keep our allies on our side, and to bring people into the global order as we needed to in order to win the Cold War. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:57:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Flag and coffin makers got a boost.
Politicians good content for ads. And got to send a bunch of undesirable underclass off to die Same as it ever was. Congrats. But Muh commies |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:02:28 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We won in Vietnam. There was a treaty signed and the NVC agreed to stop fighting. We promised South Vietnam that we would give them equipment and money to build up their military to prevent the North from invading again. Democrat politicians refused to send the funds and let the NVC know that we would no longer help South Vietnam. The North took over after having been defeated, and claimed victory. All the dems would have had to do is declare that we would back the south and the north would have stayed put and not invaded, but the dems went out of their way to let the NVC know we were out for good... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We didn't win. We left We won in Vietnam. There was a treaty signed and the NVC agreed to stop fighting. We promised South Vietnam that we would give them equipment and money to build up their military to prevent the North from invading again. Democrat politicians refused to send the funds and let the NVC know that we would no longer help South Vietnam. The North took over after having been defeated, and claimed victory. All the dems would have had to do is declare that we would back the south and the north would have stayed put and not invaded, but the dems went out of their way to let the NVC know we were out for good... They claimed victory because they were... victorious. What did we win? Successfully fight an insurgency and hold off an invasion for 8 years until it was just about gone, then sign a treaty promising the country that sponsored it we would leave the country entirely as long as they promised not to invade? To have a winner, one needs a loser. North Vietnam lost nothing and was granted everything it needed to plan and execute a full scale invasion less than two hears later, so we could pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how skillful we were at bringing "peace." |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:10:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. We won. McDonald's are in both. Militarily we didn't win, but capitalism wins b/c it generates wealth better. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:13:11 AM EDT
[#24]
We stopped winning when hearts and minds took over. Total war is best war, and the only way to truly win a fight.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 7:15:49 AM EDT
[#25]
If you have to ask the answer is no.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:03:05 AM EDT
[#26]
What were the last words of the soldier dying in the movie We Were Soldiers...I'm glad I got a chance to die for Standard Oil.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:24:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We stopped winning when hearts and minds took over. Total war is best war, and the only way to truly win a fight. You lost me. You think we would have been been better off going to war against South Vietnam and South Korea? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:39:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We won the first Vietnamese Civil War. We made the north go away. We left. They invaded again a while later and Congress (not Nixon) refused to fund any action or allow troops to go. We declined to play in VCW II. Came here to post this. Politicians and the media’s manipulation of the facts on the ground lost it for us and more so South Vietnam. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:44:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Phony body count scores padded with civilian deaths isn't a way to cheat your way to a win when you are losing the country.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:45:52 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We didn't win. We left Is that not the definition of a win? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:55:21 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We got the North to the treaty table, and negotiated a peace agreement (Vietnam, not Korea. Korea was what, a cease fire agreement?) Is that not the definition of a win? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We didn't win. We left Is that not the definition of a win? I'd argue the definition of a win is achieving that which you set out to do. In this case, it also requires preventing your opponent from achieving what they set out to do. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 10:55:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We broke even in Korea. The politicians lost Vietnam. Honestly, this is the best answer. But you would lump media in with the politicians on the Vietnam loss, if looking at the whole war, or look at it more precisely LBJ and McNamara specifically in the early days could have snuffed it out, but were timid non-warriors. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:24:02 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We got the North to the treaty table, and negotiated a peace agreement (Vietnam, not Korea. Korea was what, a cease fire agreement?) Is that not the definition of a win? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We didn't win. We left Is that not the definition of a win? |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:34:25 AM EDT
[#34]
America hasn't won a war since 1945 ... That is a simple truth you do not have to like it , but it's true.
We let China effectively win Korea because Truman was scared of the Soviets , and we let the North Vietnamese win after we broke their backs when a bunch left leaning congressmen de funded the war and stopped the 1 for 1 resupply we promised the South. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:36:28 AM EDT
[#35]
The strategy was to stop Communist expansionism. Not winning. It was a defeatist position, tailor made for the times.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:40:46 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Does that include when China takes over Taiwan, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Japan? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Vietnam - stop the spread of communism in southeast Asia. Did that. Does that include when China takes over Taiwan, the Philippines, Hong Kong, and Japan? That will be Fascism disguised as Communism. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:49:18 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did we win WWII? We fought a Europe more or less united under german leadership. We've had that for about three decades now. In Vietnam, the US showed that it could fight a war on the other side of the world and still drive big cars, watch color TVs, and let anyone who wanted to go to college still go. In Vietnam, we also learned that having the domestic left all over the programming on those color TVs could have Congress pulling us out of a war we weren't losing. (Dems didn't just pull us out of Vietnam; they also outlawed any support for South Vietnam.) Then in Afghanistan, the soviets learned that they couldn't win in their own neighborhoods. Starwars missile defense was the cherry on top. It's a series of events that left the Soviets demoralized. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Someone made the point (here, I think) that we actually "won" in SE Asia, since we actually did stop the spread of that vile, putrid, always-fatal disease known as commienism. ***Certainly, I couldn't say one American boy who died/was wounded in those conflicts died for a good reason... Or was it a good cause?Did we win WWII? We fought a Europe more or less united under german leadership. We've had that for about three decades now. In Vietnam, the US showed that it could fight a war on the other side of the world and still drive big cars, watch color TVs, and let anyone who wanted to go to college still go. In Vietnam, we also learned that having the domestic left all over the programming on those color TVs could have Congress pulling us out of a war we weren't losing. (Dems didn't just pull us out of Vietnam; they also outlawed any support for South Vietnam.) Then in Afghanistan, the soviets learned that they couldn't win in their own neighborhoods. Starwars missile defense was the cherry on top. It's a series of events that left the Soviets demoralized. They were more occupied colonies than countries. He emptied the place of Jews to the east. To kill them. A war economy. Today's Germany is a Socialist shit hole catering to ME refugees from wars they were a part of in starting. Their control is economic. Not military. The unity is forced globalism. And eliminating the middle class. You will own nothing and love it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:51:07 AM EDT
[#38]
North vietnam said they were almost finished after we started bombing Hanoi. We quit a couple of days too soon. If we would have started bombing Hanoi in 65' and not stopped till they gave up,, the war would have lasted 6 months and 50,000 more kids would have been home alive. But JFK and Johnson knew better.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:51:09 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It doesnt seem like we tried to win VN at all. IIRC it came out in recent years that we were disclosing bombing targets ahead of time, and limiting attacks to ineffective targets anyway. I havent studied why that was, but how can you win a war with that strategy? Strategic key military targets were prohibited from bombing in the North. We could have owned N. Vietnam with a sane bombing policy. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 11:54:01 AM EDT
[#40]
In Vietnam, our soldiers won nearly every battle. Our politicians lost the war.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:00:07 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Strategic key military targets were prohibited from bombing in the North. We could have owned N. Vietnam with a sane bombing policy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It doesnt seem like we tried to win VN at all. IIRC it came out in recent years that we were disclosing bombing targets ahead of time, and limiting attacks to ineffective targets anyway. I havent studied why that was, but how can you win a war with that strategy? Strategic key military targets were prohibited from bombing in the North. We could have owned N. Vietnam with a sane bombing policy. And then Russia would have stepped in, and we would have lost even harder. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 12:42:37 PM EDT
[#42]
Regarding Vietnam... as the old adage goes "we were winning when I left."
Fucking politicians. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:03:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And then Russia would have stepped in, and we would have lost even harder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesnt seem like we tried to win VN at all. IIRC it came out in recent years that we were disclosing bombing targets ahead of time, and limiting attacks to ineffective targets anyway. I havent studied why that was, but how can you win a war with that strategy? Strategic key military targets were prohibited from bombing in the North. We could have owned N. Vietnam with a sane bombing policy. And then Russia would have stepped in, and we would have lost even harder. russia and china were already in. North Vietnam was crawling with russian and chinese personnel and materiel. The Son Tay rescue force landed in the prison camp and they killed a bunch of russian advisors. Nothing happened. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:15:36 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: russia and china were already in. North Vietnam was crawling with russian and chinese personnel and materiel. The Son Tay rescue force landed in the prison camp and they killed a bunch of russian advisors. Nothing happened. Because they were still denying that level of presence. If we sunk a few Russian freighters or bombed a city with a lot of Russian civilians in it things would change. That was the concern. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:32:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: russia and china were already in. North Vietnam was crawling with russian and chinese personnel and materiel. The Son Tay rescue force landed in the prison camp and they killed a bunch of russian advisors. Nothing happened. At least it seems Nixon was not the culprit, the Dims in Congress (as always) were. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 1:34:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because they were still denying that level of presence. If we sunk a few Russian freighters or bombed a city with a lot of Russian civilians in it things would change. That was the concern. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: russia and china were already in. North Vietnam was crawling with russian and chinese personnel and materiel. The Son Tay rescue force landed in the prison camp and they killed a bunch of russian advisors. Nothing happened. That was the concern.  Good points. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:17:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Can't ask the guys whose opinion matters the most. They can't talk.
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:20:37 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We failed to achieve our objectives in either one. We likely would have seen South Korea fall to the Communists the same way South Vietnam did had we not backed up the armistice with arms. The Paris Peace accords showed the Communists knew they had the upper hand, and they learned from Korea. Sure enough, they were able to provoke without reaction and then build and a massive invasion force to make a joke of the whole treaty. The sad thing is a couple hundred sorties from a dozen B-52s could have obliterated their push south. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:24:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The sad thing is a couple hundred sorties from a dozen B-52s could have obliterated their push south. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: We failed to achieve our objectives in either one. We likely would have seen South Korea fall to the Communists the same way South Vietnam did had we not backed up the armistice with arms. The Paris Peace accords showed the Communists knew they had the upper hand, and they learned from Korea. Sure enough, they were able to provoke without reaction and then build and a massive invasion force to make a joke of the whole treaty. The sad thing is a couple hundred sorties from a dozen B-52s could have obliterated their push south. The slightest show of resolve would have likely done so. We never should have agreed to terms that has us leave. We never should have tolerated the aggression that built up after we left and culminated in that invasion. We did. You can't forfeit an event and declare yourself winner. It doesn't work that way in sports, it most definitely doesn't work that way in geopolitics. |
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Posted: 1/24/2021 2:25:19 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And then Russia would have stepped in, and we would have lost even harder. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: It doesnt seem like we tried to win VN at all. IIRC it came out in recent years that we were disclosing bombing targets ahead of time, and limiting attacks to ineffective targets anyway. I havent studied why that was, but how can you win a war with that strategy? Strategic key military targets were prohibited from bombing in the North. We could have owned N. Vietnam with a sane bombing policy. And then Russia would have stepped in, and we would have lost even harder. Debatable. Russian pilots were already flying their MIGs. |
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