I've grown interested in freemasonry for the way it seems to promote community bonds in ways that are very similar to religious communities, but without attaching any sort of requirement for specific supernatural beliefs.

I don't believe in any sort of god in the traditional sense. But I also definitely don't think everything about the world is within possible human comprehension. Just like how a rabbit simply isn't capable of understanding civilization or nuclear physics, I have no right to be so hubristic as to assume that our particular species of ape on this particular blue marble are equipped to comprehend all forces at work in the universe.

I see the value in the sort of togetherness that religious communities have, and I really think that something profound and important is being lost by simply discarding religion in favor of secularization. But I still don't believe that any particular religions are actually true.

I can't honestly bring myself to believe in a system of supernatural beliefs just because an old book said so, and I also can't bring myself to lie and pretend to believe in such a supernatural system just to be a part of a strong religious community.

In freemasonry, I see the possibility of promoting that communal togetherness that gets thrown out with raw secularism but without needing to promote any beliefs in specific supernatural forces. But does my lack of belief in a conventional god disqualify me from joining? Or does my attitude about forces at work in the universe that are beyond the comprehension of apes like us fall under the masonic meaning of belief in a higher power?

yet, you do believe...

Apply, ask at the interview.

Because people don't read.

Without saying too much, I recall a Holy Bible somewhere in my past attendances in which I was a somewhat major player in the play. I knew about that part way before I petitioned. I often wonder why ‘new’ interested parties seem to want to join but want it their way when there are multitudes of other organizations that may suit their beliefs (or lack thereof), lifestyle choices or other peculiarities possessed by the person in question.  I won’t go further than that.

Not strange because “goodness” and religious belief are not necessarily co-located. However, there are many organizations with....less offensive criteria for membership.  Insulting a fraternal organization’s membership requirements  because of your beliefs or lack thereof is disingenuous.

A better tack might be this:

Ask to petition at a local lodge

During the interview, ask if they will waive the ‘supreme being’ and ‘trust in God’ and Bible parts for you.

The worst they can say is no.

You’ll never KNOW until you ask point blank.

A higher power doesnt specifically mention a Deity. Most of the founding fathers, of which several were MM, were deists.

It's the thing.  It's the one thing that makes it all work and holds the meaning of everything Masons are and do.

Everything about Freemasonry is built around the belief in a Supreme Being.  All of it!

All of our lessons are based on it.  Our Obligations (not oaths, big difference) are taken before the Supreme Being in whom you place your trust.  Without that, it's meaningless.  Without that Supreme Being there is nothing to bind you to your obligations.

@Brian01  Lets say you are driving down the road and you see a baby stroller roll out of a driveway into heavy traffic.  What is the first thing that comes out of your mouth?

We need you to believe in a higher power... However who that is, is your business.  We believe that the relationship between a man and his God is his business.

you cant get that far.

the petition has a section above where you sign that says that you declare a belief in a Supreme Being.

And yet Buddhists, which do not believe in a Supreme Being, can join.

"it is actually on the Approved list for most jurisdictions.

It remains to consider whether Buddhists and followers of Confucius are believers in God in such sense that they may be made Masons. As to the former, we have the weighty opinion of Albert Pike that Buddha was a "Masonic legislator"--that is that he gave laws in the spirit of Masonry. He says of the original followers of Buddha: "They recognized the existence of a single uncreated God, in whose bosom everything grows, is developed and transformed" (Morals and Dogma, 277.)

here is a list of generally accepted VSL's  that may be used for a man to take his obligation upon.

http://bessel.org/masons/vsllist.htm"

your little list is a bunch of bull.

Sorry dude, not my list.

Here's a link to the thread. Handy link to "Non Masons Official ask a question or comment Thread"

Hey Thats my thread.
Still its a bunch of bullshit. It say this, "Books (other than VSL's) that are placed on the altar in some Masonic Lodges"   Doesn't say in what country or state.

Whats your point anyway?

Im going to inquire about this at the Grand Lodge

I get all that Bro.

I just want to see a list that my state recognizes.

So basically the "important" part and the 95% of all 3 works?  Yeah I don't see that happening.

I went through the “regular” degrees in Alabama. . TBS can vouch for the content thereof. Done. 3rd degree. I accepted, believed and practiced all that I was taught, however I tend to lose polish upon brushing against rough surfaces. I’m not at all for modifying ANY aspect of the requirements for entry into a Lodge. Since people seem to want to attack, chip away and seek to dilute anything they disagree with, I simply gave one an option.  I believe in the old adage: “Ask. The worst they can say is no.”  I find it curious that folks who aren’t Masons who can easily research the craft on the internet will come into a form for Masonry(and the discussion thereof) and throw stones at the china.  Why would one do that?  Simple antagonism?  A sense of accomplishment by sticking a needle in someone’s belief in something that can’t be codified in ones and zeros?

I’m still waiting for lawsuits against lodges and grand lodges for discrimination of some infinitesimal thing.  It’s happened to many other organizations with ‘strict’ criteria. First Amendment violations for requiring members to keep lessons secret?  Sexual discrimination?  Why isn’t half of the lodge of African descent?  The world has gotten beyond stupid with what’s possible.

"Or no oath would be considered binding upon you."

This and the fact that seeking the will of God and service to God (or deity if you prefer) is fundamental to the core of Freemasonry.

It's the foundation of everything we do.

Sorry to bump an old thread but I breezed through this forum and it caught my eye. It caught my eye because I resigned from Freemasonry due to my atheism, and the conflict that caused with the core requirements of the Lodge. I wanted to reply because of the post that talked about non-believers not being trusted to keep their word. It's not about that.

I joined as soon as I could at 21 (I'm 43, resigned about 5 years ago), and continued travelling through the 32nd in the Scottish Rite. I was a dual member of both my home lodge in PA and my away from home Lodge in Albany, NY (I was stationed in upstate NY in the Navy). I helped raise many brothers.

When I joined I met the supreme being requirement, but as I grew, and studied, and found my own path, I eventually landed on atheism. I continued to try to participate in the Lodge for a couple years after, but it was eating at me every time that I walked into the Lodge. I felt I was telling a lie at that point, and I was.

So, I did what I believed to be the honorable thing, which was resign. I explained very clearly why, and that I greatly regretted not resigning when I knew I was an atheist. I love Freemasonry so much, and hold the obligations with such high regard, that I saw no other choice but to walk away from that which I loved. It still bothers me to this day. I wish I could still be a member, but there are rules, and I cannot meet them. More importantly, I would never want them to change.

I was taken aback when a few of the officers tried talking me into staying, insisting that it wasn't a "big deal." I insisted that it was a big deal, and that if my lack of believe in a supreme being didn't matter, than did any of it matter? That bothered me, for many of the reasons stated in the thread. It's core to Freemasonry.

I hope the Freemasons never change their tenants, tempted as they may be to bolster membership in this day and age. The obligations meant the world to me, and changing them to suit non-believers makes them meaningless.

In my opinion.

My ultimate point is that a man has to find meaning in his words, and if someone is trying to find a way to lawyer a way around the obligations, than perhaps this isn't the organization for them. Just be a man, admit what you do or do not believe, and go from there. If you bend the truth to gain admittance, I assure you, it will eat at you until you finally face the truth.

Heres to you brother. You did the right thing.

I am still proud to call you brother. You, and I hope I, will always be bound by an idea that men should strive to be better. There are good men amongst all beliefs. Because you do not believe in a higher power, that does not mean you are less than you have always been. It only means that you have a place, and a mission that is not with a group of men that have a requirement that you can not uphold.

I admire the strength that you demonstrated when you chose to set things right. You still chose to live a square and plumb life.

Good luck to you brother. I hope that one day you will regain your ability to walk among us.

Merry Christmas. I wish for you and yours all of the blessings that life can give.

Thank you very much, I really appreciate that.

Merry Christmas to you as well!

Thank you brother. I still have all of my regalia and degrees on the wall, etc. It truly was an important part of my life and I'm glad to hear things like this. My in life brothers also say similar things.

Go troll somewhere else, maybe?

It seems non believers are tainted by jealousy to the point they find the need to be venemous about it.

In this case there are two very admirable groups that are beyond his ability to be part of. Children often demonstrate anti social behavior when they dont get their way.

I wonder if the fine moderator on another forum would be understanding if something like this statement was posted in a thread that he oversees.

In all the other threads that I have seen him participate in, he was seemingly an upright character. Although he is clearly in the wrong lane here. Why would he grace us with his presence when he obviously knows before entering that everyone here disagrees with him in a very profound manner?

That part seems to be less important these days since I've been invited more often the past few years despite saying I don't believe in god.

Came back to this thread after scrolling through my active topics and apparently this thread is still open for comments despite its age.

Is that really necessary? It seems awfully thin skinned and frivolous to ban him from the forum for what was, and it really was, a very mild criticism of your organization's practices.

It comes down to a belief in God (or deity if you prefer) being a core component of Freemasonry.   To use an example, I'm a Christian.  I believe in Christ.  That is fundamental to the definition of what it is to be Christian.  Just as a belief in God is fundamental to being a Freemason.  While Freemasonry teaches no theology, it does teach service to God as a central premise without which much of the rest of Freemasonry would be meaningless.

Freemasonry in PA is a bit different than a lot of other jurisdictions in the US. But where I'm at (and in most "regular" jurisdictions), the obligations are taken on the "old book" and a good deal of the allegories are also based thereon.

Your latter description seems like it would be something that would pass the test for "belief" in some states but a) I don't know the situation in PA and b) see the first part of my sentence. Calling it an old book of rules (which, it really isn't...) says to me it's probably not going to be for you, but I'd counter it with saying if you like what you see Freemasonry doing and realize that a good bit of "it" is based on the Bible then maybe that speaks to what it means to others than just being an "old book of rules".

To the other note: I don't like to see anyone get banned for speaking their opinion, but the "fairy tale" talk is insulting and it's not the first time it's been seen.

Also one other note, there are some other groups that call themselves Freemasonry (considered irregular by mainstream Freemasonry) that don't require a belief, or Bible, who allow women in, and some other differences...but those also aren't the groups you know of that are known for their community involvement. Take that for what you will.

Edited for clarity. Probably not all that well.

I believe this needs clarification. These other organizations are not branches of Freemasonry.

I guess it’s technically Orient De France or Continental Freemasonry. They’ll refer to themselves as Freemasons regardless. I don’t recognize them as such which is why I called them irregular.

Then there are all the inner city clandestine offshoots that make me scratch my head.

But yes. You’re right. Branches is not a good term for it.