User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 3:52:04 PM EDT
This is from a Ukraine news article.
The Baltic states and Poland do not rule out sending their troops to Ukraine if Russia succeeds on the battlefield, reports German media Der Spiegel. "They argue that if the Russians manage to make a strategic breakthrough in eastern Ukraine because the West is only half-heartedly helping Kyiv, the situation could escalate dramatically. In that case, the Baltic states and Poland would not wait for Russian troops to deploy on their borders, Baltic politicians warned, but would send troops to Ukraine themselves. And it was clear what this would mean: NATO would become a party to the war," the article says. French President Emmanuel Macron was the first to voice the possibility of sending Western troops to Ukraine. But Macron's idea was supported only by the Baltic states and Poland, while the rest of NATO countries, including Germany, criticized the French leader's statement. https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/baltic-states-poland-may-deploy-troops-to-1716731678.html |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 4:52:04 PM EDT
[#1]
That would be interesting.
|
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 4:55:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Well if I were them knowing history I think not having Russia on my border would be important.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 4:57:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Poland and the Baltics said this a year ago.
The Russian “advances” are capturing one horse towns already destroyed and “breakthroughs” are measured in football field lengths. Russia isn’t Blitzkreiging ukrainian cities anytime soon. Their recent “Kharkiv” offensive from the last couple of weeks (to som shills here’s disappointment) flopped. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 5:00:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic).
If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. |
|
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 5:17:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pallas]
[#5]
My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone.
Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 5:31:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? But would we have the money to build a wall? Doubt it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 5:34:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Regardless of their actual intentions, it would be insanely stupid for those countries to go out in public and announce that if Russia can take Ukraine they are not going to do anything about it.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 7:54:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Can we expect any of them to come help us protect our border?
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:06:46 PM EDT
[#9]
I sure hope Poland has a MASSIVELY HUGE stockpile of weapons/ammunition
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:09:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Lol, the Ruskies will be in for a rude awakening if Poland decides to get froggy.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:13:28 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. Aside from that, good excuse to abandon that entangling alliance. We should only help countries if it serves our interests, not by treaty obligation. If Poland wants to go to war with the Russians over their backwater trailer park of a neighbor, then they can do it themselves without any US involvement. |
|
|
|
CO, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:18:40 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Pallas: My solution to this is to draw a line down the center of UKR, let the Russians have the east side and NATO the west side. NATO now has a buffer zone, Russia now has a buffer zone. Problem solved, where is my Nobel Peace Prize? I see you failed history. If you hadn’t, you would know that was already tried and it kind of helped foster the feelings right now. Nobody wants Russia as a neighbor especially when he’s literally using the same justification as Hitler did. |
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:20:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VeryAverage: Aside from that, good excuse to abandon that entangling alliance. We should only help countries if it serves our interests, not by treaty obligation. If Poland wants to go to war with the Russians over their backwater trailer park of a neighbor, then they can do it themselves without any US involvement. And only help if they recognize their citizens’ RtKBA. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:22:11 PM EDT
[#14]
CIA needs to whack Putin.
|
|
|
|
WI, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:24:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Given how small the active-duty forces of all of them are, this seems highly unlkely. They're going to call up reservists to fight a Russian invasion of a neighbor that's not a NATO member? Highly unlikely.
What might happen is that small detachments could get sent to rear support functions. Guarding borders (away from Russia) or POWs, freeing up more AFU troops to go to the front. But even that seems unlikely. Poland and the Baltics combined have fewer active-duty troops than Russia has deployed in Ukraine, by a lot. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:24:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cone256: I sure hope Poland has a MASSIVELY HUGE stockpile of weapons/ammunition Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. |
|
|
|
AL, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:24:48 PM EDT
[#17]
I’d be supportive of Poland regaining the majority of its pre-1939 territory.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:30:24 PM EDT
[#18]
Their link to the Der Spiegel article is not working.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:35:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: cone256]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: They do. Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By cone256: I sure hope Poland has a MASSIVELY HUGE stockpile of weapons/ammunition Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. No, not systems, ammo for said systems. Shiny toys are worthless without massive stockpiles of ammo and spare parts so they can keep shooting and stay in the fight. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:37:42 PM EDT
[#20]
May
|
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 8:46:11 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CenterMass762: Lol, the Ruskies will be in for a rude awakening if Poland decides to get froggy. Yeah right 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:36:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ODA_564: Article 5 only kicks in if a NATO country is attacked (and even then it isn't automatic). If a NATO country is the aggressor there's no Article 5 obligation on alliance members. I'm sure there are other NATO countries who'll join them, though. The important part is that the big hitters like the US will not easily be able to slow walk support for actual NATO members like they've been wit the Ukraine. Had we given full support initially, the war would have been over before the first year was up (giving full values for training time in the F16s) and Russia would be back inside its own borders. Of course, had Russia even suspected we'd provide full support, they never would have crossed the border. SOMEbody wanted this war, and wants it to drag on for as long as possible. And I'm pretty sure I know who, or at least which groups. Russia doubtless agrees with the former, but only those profiting want the latter. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:42:50 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Given how small the active-duty forces of all of them are, this seems highly unlkely. They're going to call up reservists to fight a Russian invasion of a neighbor that's not a NATO member? Highly unlikely. What might happen is that small detachments could get sent to rear support functions. Guarding borders (away from Russia) or POWs, freeing up more AFU troops to go to the front. But even that seems unlikely. Poland and the Baltics combined have fewer active-duty troops than Russia has deployed in Ukraine, by a lot. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:44:00 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: They do. Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By cone256: I sure hope Poland has a MASSIVELY HUGE stockpile of weapons/ammunition Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military. |
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:44:23 PM EDT
[#25]
Poland doesn’t forget and they’ve been working pretty hard at building up their military.
|
|
|
MI, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:45:37 PM EDT
[#26]
They know contrary to a lot of dumbfucks here in this country whom are spouting Russian bullshit, that Russia absolutely is going after the Baltics if they succeed in Ukraine.
And yes Russia can succeed, they're producing a fuck ton of artillery. Way more than anything Ukraine has any hope at all of matching. Or even Western Europe for that matter. WW3 is real possible if Russia is not stopped. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:47:14 PM EDT
[#27]
"Europe needs to do more! They should be doing the heavy lifting!"
"BUT NOT LIKE THAT! WW3! DOOM!" 
|
|
|
|
IN, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:48:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Have you ever lived under a Soviet style regime? While I haven't, I've known a good many, including family members, who have. They don't look at Russia the same way most Americans do. They've already been on that ride. You may get to see Poland adapt a full war footing. When that happens, the size of their military will balloon, and you'll know that things are about to slap the snot out of your normalcy bias. Jailing political enemies, inciting street violence, media parroting government agitprop....feeling more and more familiar here. |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:48:22 PM EDT
[#29]
From the article.
The west only half heartily helps krane. Maybe the EU should go balls out to,help krane then possibly beg and grovel for western help. Other then laundering money and defense kick backs tell me again why we are finacing them? |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:54:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: "Europe needs to do more! They should be doing the heavy lifting!" "BUT NOT LIKE THAT! WW3! DOOM!" lol yep. I'd credit it as hypocrisy if I thought it was anything more than regurgitating the latest talking point |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:54:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Given how small the active-duty forces of all of them are, this seems highly unlkely. They're going to call up reservists to fight a Russian invasion of a neighbor that's not a NATO member? Highly unlikely. What might happen is that small detachments could get sent to rear support functions. Guarding borders (away from Russia) or POWs, freeing up more AFU troops to go to the front. But even that seems unlikely. Poland and the Baltics combined have fewer active-duty troops than Russia has deployed in Ukraine, by a lot. This, regardless of how much hype surrounds Poland most of their military capacity is still being built. It's just more one more fear mongering campaign from a European nation soliciting US action "or else X". It's been Russians in Paris, or overrunning the Baltics. In this case it's NATO INVOLVEMENT1!!1. So far damn near every one of them has done similar. None of them are going to do shit. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 9:55:06 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: SOMEbody wanted this war, and wants it to drag on for as long as possible. And I'm pretty sure I know who, or at least which groups. Russia doubtless agrees with the former, but only those profiting want the latter. This. FBHO/Hillary were agitating for war with Russia before the 2016 election. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:04:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: "Europe needs to do more! They should be doing the heavy lifting!" "BUT NOT LIKE THAT! WW3! DOOM!" Can you tell us how this would not be the outcome? |
|
|
|
MO, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:08:45 PM EDT
[#34]
That doesn’t involve NATO in the war. Article 5 does not apply in the event that a member state starts a war of their own choosing.
That said I’m fine with European nations taking care of European problems. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:10:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Golly, Poland must be pro-globohomo and hate Christianity. Why else would anyone oppose the glorious Russians?
|
|
|
|
MO, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:12:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: CIA needs to whack Putin. For as much as we’ve wasted on this conflict so far we could have hired 100 first rate assassins for a fraction. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:16:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:21:22 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Chisum: Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe. If Russia got into a shooting war with NATO this conflict that has taken Ukraine over 2 years to essentially lose would be over in a weekend. That isn't going to happen. We know it, NATO knows it, Russia knows it. It's just fearmongering towards the lowest common denominator designed to create pressure for the US to invest much more heavily in funding this war. |
|
|
|
MO, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:24:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: If Russia got into a shooting war with NATO this conflict that has taken Ukraine over 2 years to essentially lose would be over in a weekend. That isn't going to happen. We know it, NATO knows it, Russia knows it. It's just fearmongering towards the lowest common denominator designed to create pressure for the US to invest much more heavily in funding this war. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: Originally Posted By Chisum: Better to fight it out in Ukraine than all over Europe. If Russia got into a shooting war with NATO this conflict that has taken Ukraine over 2 years to essentially lose would be over in a weekend. That isn't going to happen. We know it, NATO knows it, Russia knows it. It's just fearmongering towards the lowest common denominator designed to create pressure for the US to invest much more heavily in funding this war. Given Russias less than impressive performance in Ukraine my fears of them invading a NATO member are nonexistent. In a conventional war the US would stomp them into a greasy spot in no time. The people spouting that nonsense here are pants on head. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:49:58 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: CIA needs to whack Putin. Besides they're more likely to whack Trump. The IC is tight with the Party. |
|
|
|
WI, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 10:54:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Lieh-tzu]
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daemon734: If Russia got into a shooting war with NATO this conflict that has taken Ukraine over 2 years to essentially lose would be over in a weekend. That isn't going to happen. We know it, NATO knows it, Russia knows it. It's just fearmongering towards the lowest common denominator designed to create pressure for the US to invest much more heavily in funding this war. That is an exaggeration. If I recall correctly, the US has the largest military force in Europe at roughly 100K deployed. All the military forces currently in Europe (active duty) are less that what Russia has involved in the fight with Ukraine. I'm estimating from memory, anybody should correct me with details if I'm wrong. To be fair, many nations could call up reserves on short order that would substantially increase their numbers. IIRC, Estonia only maintains less than 10 thousand active, but can call up 80K. Not to mention the fact that NATO would take longer than a weekend just formulate the details of a response, and not everybody in NATO would join in. IF Russia were not tied down in Ukraine, NATO would do no more than establish air supremacy in the first week. IF Russia concludes their adventure in Ukraine, they'll have their economy & industry on full war footing, and NATO will still be on 'peace dividend' force levels, with about one-tenth of the hardware & manpower we used to have. I saw a graph posted in the old Ukraine thread once that showed current numbers of equipment compared to old numbers, and it was shocking to me. All Europe combined has about 2000 tanks now, where Germany once had that alone. Germany now has around 200 tanks, and who knows if they all work and have crews, fuel, and ammo that could be ready on short notice. Likely not, IMO. Again, going from memory, my numbers might be slightly off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:03:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: I suspect they know that, and won't expect NATO to take kinetic action. I'm sure there are other NATO countries who'll join them, though. The important part is that the big hitters like the US will not easily be able to slow walk support for actual NATO members like they've been wit the Ukraine. Had we given full support initially, the war would have been over before the first year was up (giving full values for training time in the F16s) and Russia would be back inside its own borders. Of course, had Russia even suspected we'd provide full support, they never would have crossed the border. SOMEbody wanted this war, and wants it to drag on for as long as possible. And I'm pretty sure I know who, or at least which groups. Russia doubtless agrees with the former, but only those profiting want the latter. The only heavy hitters in NATO is the US. Poland and France are light heavyweights at best. And no other NATO members are going to be jumping in with glee to support an unprovoked attack by some NATO members , even on Russia. You think the UN and ICJ jumped on Israel fast? |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:12:08 PM EDT
[#43]
Good.
Fuck Russia. Only Euros will balls are the Poles |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:13:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: daemon734]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: That is an exaggeration. If I recall correctly, the US has the largest military force in Europe at roughly 100K deployed. All the military forces currently in Europe (active duty) are less that what Russia has involved in the fight with Ukraine. I'm estimating from memory, anybody should correct me with details if I'm wrong. To be fair, many nations could call up reserves on short order that would substantially increase their numbers. IIRC, Estonia only maintains less than 10 thousand active, but can call up 80K. Not to mention the fact that NATO would take longer than a weekend just formulate the details of a response, and not everybody in NATO would join in. IF Russia were not tied down in Ukraine, NATO would do no more than establish air supremacy in the first week. IF Russia concludes their adventure in Ukraine, they'll have their economy & industry on full war footing, and NATO will still be on 'peace dividend' force levels, with about one-tenth of the hardware & manpower we used to have. I saw a graph posted in the old Ukraine thread once that showed current numbers of equipment compared to old numbers, and it was shocking to me. All Europe combined has about 2000 tanks now, where Germany once had that alone. Germany now has around 200 tanks, and who knows if they all work and have crews, fuel, and ammo that could be ready on short notice. Likely not, IMO. Again, going from memory, my numbers might be slightly off. A fight between NATO and Russia is not dependant upon standing armies on ground. Our air, sea, and standoff capabilities are so far ahead of Russia we can immediately cripple the asymmetric tactical resources they have leveraged against Ukraine. Now understand when I say "our" or "NATO", obviously I mean the US, as 90% of Europe is effectively useless right now. But yes, we would immediately cripple them. Upon the decision to commit, that could happen as quickly as a weekend, yes. In fact, Russia has known this for years. It was the driving factor behind their transition into RNGW, their inability to match tactical parity with the west. Most of their resources were dumped into A2AD defensively protecting Russia itself, they know they can only manage a defense against us, not an offense. In Ukraine, exposed, they would be dead meat instantly against us. Tank v tank matters only when you don't have deep fires and a functional air force or navy, like Ukraine. In fact, it hasn't mattered much in Ukraine either. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:20:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Habitual Line Crosser calls them, 'Little European Texas'. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TheOTHERmaninblack: Originally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By cone256: I sure hope Poland has a MASSIVELY HUGE stockpile of weapons/ammunition Probably the largest land army in Europe along with the French. F-16's, F-35's, Abrams, Patriot. It's like a mini US military.  Little European Texas |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:26:25 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By eurotrash: CIA needs to whack Putin. |
|
|
|
FL, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:28:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Pallas]
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nickel_Plated: But would we have the money to build a wall? Doubt it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Nickel_Plated: But would we have the money to build a wall? Doubt it. A wall would be unnecessary. Originally Posted By Bigtwinlvr: I see you failed history. If you hadn’t, you would know that was already tried and it kind of helped foster the feelings right now. Nobody wants Russia as a neighbor especially when he’s literally using the same justification as Hitler did. Nobody would have Russia as a neighbor, except those that already have Russia as a neighbor, Ukraine would be a neutral DMZ. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:40:21 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ArmyInfantryVet: They know contrary to a lot of dumbfucks here in this country whom are spouting Russian bullshit, that Russia absolutely is going after the Baltics if they succeed in Ukraine. And yes Russia can succeed, they're producing a fuck ton of artillery. Way more than anything Ukraine has any hope at all of matching. Or even Western Europe for that matter. WW3 is real possible if Russia is not stopped.  Attached File |
|
|
AL, USA
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:44:32 PM EDT
[#49]
What's old is new again. Treaty entanglements pull major nations into bloody war. You would have thought we figured this out a century ago.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/26/2024 11:46:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryThat would be remotely true if the US stayed out and allowed Russia to invade a NATO partner. That's a pretty big detail to overlook. Absurd as well. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
