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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:52:23 PM EDT
Here's an article on the World War II German Elefant tank destroyer
https://www.firearmsnews.com/editorial/world-war-ii-german-elefant-tank-destroyers/363738 It was designed by Ferdinand Porsche......yes....that Porsche....had a 10 to 1 kill ratio during the war... 
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:55:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Very poorly. To heavy and slow. They would off been better off makeing more. Panthers
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:56:14 PM EDT
[#2]
I don't think the guy in the foreground thinks too much of it.
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:56:40 PM EDT
[#3]
10-1 sounds good until you realize even if it was 20-1 Germany didn't stand a chance.
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:57:09 PM EDT
[#4]
It's frightening when you stumble across one in your 75mm armed Sherman playing warthunder.
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:57:17 PM EDT
[#5]
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast.
ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:58:28 PM EDT
[#6]
The slow TD with no means of defense against infantry?
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Posted: 7/12/2019 6:59:07 PM EDT
[#7]
Pretty strong in panzer general
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:01:30 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:04:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:05:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Shit design. Decent gun, underpowered, and needed a better transmission. Lack of infantry support when deployed was the other problem, combined with a lack of MGs on the vehicle.
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:09:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Packed the 88mm punch, but lacked a defensive MG. The Germans made the STG44's with the bent 90 degree barrels and periscopes for this tank to sweep Red's off of it. Besides being slow it had a big flaw in which it could be taken out with a molotov. It's engine was front/mid separating the driver front MG/radio operator from the rear crew which wasn't a good thing either.
It was more of a tank killer ambush pill box than a battle tank. When used in that role it did well, but mixing it up on a rolling battlefield it did poorly. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:12:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:16:21 PM EDT
[#13]
The turret looks fixed in the pic above. If so, how does the gun traverse? Is it mounted on some sort of gimbal?
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:18:34 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The turret looks fixed in the pic above. If so, how does the gun traverse? Is it mounted on some sort of gimbal? They only pressed them into this role because they had a handful of Porsche Tiger prototype hulls left. An even smaller number of them - single digits, I seem to recall, but don't quote me on that - actually had turrets mounted and were used as command tanks. Having a one-off vehicle with one-off parts isn't exactly a good idea, usually. Germany fucked up greatly with armor as the war progressed, aiming for perfect instead of adequate, and spending their time with elaborate circle-jerk engineering projects instead of focusing on how to efficiently build what they really needed. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:19:32 PM EDT
[#15]
It was only good for half the shit tanks were good for.
It was a turd. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:20:31 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The turret looks fixed in the pic above. If so, how does the gun traverse? Is it mounted on some sort of gimbal? |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:23:32 PM EDT
[#17]
It's all fun and games in your Wunderwaffen until a shit Russian shell knocks out a track or the tranny explodes going up a hill.
All they amounted to was an expensive target. If you want useful, look up the Hetzer or the Marders. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:25:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Better question is what do I think of the other resources and supplies that could have been built or provided if the elephant hadn't been fielded, just like with all the other crazy wonderwaffe.
Weird to think what the Germans could have accomplished without so many industrial diversions. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:26:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Is this the one with the hybrid Diesel engine/electric drive motors?
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:29:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty strong in panzer general |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:30:03 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's frightening when you stumble across one in your 75mm armed Sherman playing warthunder.  If the War Thunder Ferdinand was historically accurate |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:30:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Very poorly. To heavy and slow. They would off been better off makeing more. Panthers |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:33:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is this the one with the hybrid Diesel engine/electric drive motors? |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:37:25 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Better question is what do I think of the other resources and supplies that could have been built or provided if the elephant hadn't been fielded, just like with all the other crazy wonderwaffe. Weird to think what the Germans could have accomplished without so many industrial diversions. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:38:47 PM EDT
[#25]
A slightly mobile pill box.
Waste of resources. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 7:56:18 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SOP for them. The good enough V-1 flying bomb was dirt cheap and arguably a better, more cost effective weapon than manned bombers. The reaching-for-perfect V-2 cost more than the Manhattan Project, absorbed a huge fraction of Germany's war material, and delivered slender practical results that had no serious impact on the war. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Better question is what do I think of the other resources and supplies that could have been built or provided if the elephant hadn't been fielded, just like with all the other crazy wonderwaffe. Weird to think what the Germans could have accomplished without so many industrial diversions. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 8:57:01 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 7/12/2019 9:15:36 PM EDT
[#28]
70 tons.
I hope it could snorkel, because the bridges of the time are going to have an issue. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 9:20:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Way too much armor, over complicated engine. 65 tons makes it get stuck, hard to recover.
Jagdpanther was much better, sloped rumor saved 20 tons of weight. Best used in the East where sectors of fire were better. An 88mm TD with no turret was a cheap sub for tanks. Less a tank then an FA proof AT gun. I think German TDs were in general a better design then the US. But the elefant was pretty bad. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 9:20:58 PM EDT
[#30]
The Nashorn and Jagdtiger were better
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:14:10 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:16:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
yep, more proof Porsche was secretly an Allied sympathizer trying to waste as much German Armor development money/time as possible Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Is this the one with the hybrid Diesel engine/electric drive motors? |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:21:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Limited traverse on the gun meant it had to turn the whole vehicle to adjust the field of fire.
Weight restricted the terrain it could effectively cross and the number of bridges that could handle it. Created another platform that needed to be supported, unlike Nashorns, Stug IVs or Jadgpanzers based on the PZ4 platform. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:21:23 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Nashorn and Jagdtiger were better 
I think you meant Jagdpanther. The Jagdtiger was a Ferdinand on steroids. |
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Posted: 7/12/2019 10:23:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Great until the Soviet Infantry learned it had no machinegun. Had to be retrofitted. There is a good book on the Elefant. Two of those hulls were completed with a regular Tiger turret with the 88/L56. They served as command vehicles.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 2:44:56 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To be fair, it was working and is still working well for locomotives. Going into production with a proof of concept level of design, probably a bad idea. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this the one with the hybrid Diesel engine/electric drive motors? The issue was trying to pursue such a long-shot line of research in the middle of a losing war, when it would have given little advantage even if it had worked perfectly. It's a real headscratcher. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:00:25 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's all fun and games in your Wunderwaffen until a shit Russian shell knocks out a track or the tranny explodes going up a hill. All they amounted to was an expensive target. If you want useful, look up the Hetzer or the Marders. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:09:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Idiotic weapon. Made no sense whatsoever.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:13:10 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pretty strong in panzer general |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:15:46 PM EDT
[#40]
I’ve always thought they were really cool ... but I agree with some of the “too big and complicated” criticism that people have.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:19:51 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah well "illiterate peasants" are the ones making the rules here in the US. Go to some free speech rally and those "illiterate peasants" are out in masks flying Soviet flags beating people up. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:28:07 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stug III was the way to go. That was one project they actually got right. They used the existing panzer 3 assembly line to make a useful vehicle with a reasonably effective 75mm gun. It was cheap, reliable, easy to produce and effective in the field and probably cost 1/4 of the elefant/ferdinand. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's all fun and games in your Wunderwaffen until a shit Russian shell knocks out a track or the tranny explodes going up a hill. All they amounted to was an expensive target. If you want useful, look up the Hetzer or the Marders. And a Stug cost way less than 1/4 of the big TDs. I'd guess closer to 1/10. I bet @Manic_Moran has a good idea as to the rough numbers. I know he has posted numbers of Stug cost vs some other common German tanks, though I don't recall a direct comparison to the big TDs specifically. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:33:16 PM EDT
[#43]
All you had to do to kill it was give it some ost mud.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:38:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Watch a spot on documentary once on how the germans could have done much just fielding the mark 4 panzer and regular tiger
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:42:36 PM EDT
[#45]
The Germans had a perfectly reliable chassis for tank destroyers in 1943 that was already in full production -- the Mark IV. There was no need to waste money on an entirely new design. As someone else has pointed out, the Nashorn performed quite well on the Eastern Front and cost a fraction of the Elefant (although it wasn't very effective in closed in spaces like forests or cities).
The Germans should have concentrated production on the Mark IV and the Panther and their variants, but Hitler was enamored with big guns. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:43:30 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
10-1 sounds good until you realize even if it was 20-1 Germany didn't stand a chance. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:46:38 PM EDT
[#47]
It was designed to be a break-through weapon but it was a catastrophic mistake, built on the assumption their flanks would always be secured.
And I am glad to see you posting again, Gunwriter. 
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:54:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Germany was still pouring money into rail mounted guns, V2 and heavy battleships while vast numbers of German soldiers froze to death.
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Posted: 7/13/2019 3:58:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's impressive until you realize that the 10-1 stat is padded by mostly being used from ambush against Soviet attacks over open terrain of tanks being crewed by illiterate peasants. In any other situation it was pretty useless. Great gun and frontal armor, but crap critical part life and extremely vulnerable from the air or any flank. If its enemy didn't show up from the expected direction it was toast. ETA: The Allies should have given Porsche a medal after the war. His idiotic ideas, and his ability to convince Hitler to go along with them, were a huge drain on German armor development. |
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Posted: 7/13/2019 4:11:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
....had a 10 to 1 kill ratio during the war... |
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