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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:04:55 PM EDT
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:11:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Makes sense. It would be a good way to recruit people with skills to perform the job without all of the BS associated with being an officer.
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GEO
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:14:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again.
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:14:48 PM EDT
[#3]
Neat and long overdue, but surely they know E5 isn’t a rank?
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:17:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:20:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Eroic]
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: again? When were pilots ever enlisted? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. IIRC, WWI. ETA: 1912-1942 https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AFEHRI/documents/EnlistedPilots/McDonald.pdf |
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GEO
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:20:35 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: again? When were pilots ever enlisted? The navy and marines had enlisted pilots before and during WW2. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:23:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: The navy and marines had enlisted pilots before and during WW2. So did the Air Force. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:30:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: exdalamt]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: again? When were pilots ever enlisted? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. US Army Air Force had Sergeant pilots in WWII. Edit: Oops, looks like this has already been answered. |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:36:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saint_Peter: So did the Air Force. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saint_Peter: Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII: The navy and marines had enlisted pilots before and during WW2. So did the Air Force. Technically wrong, as the Air Force didn’t exist in WW2; it was the Army Air Corp  |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:57:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Banshee35]
[#10]
I remember the confusion of a young airman trying to figure out if he should salute me or not as he had no idea what the bar with some dots on it meant.
 Good on the Airforce for joining the times |
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Posted: 5/10/2024 5:57:37 PM EDT
[#11]
I know a couple are applying for WO positions
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:27:20 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: I know a couple are applying for WO positions Nice! Tell ‘em good luck for me! |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:35:47 AM EDT
[#13]
By the time I made Master Chief the Navy had instituted IT Warrant Officers.
I didn't want to take the pay cut. 
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:37:21 AM EDT
[#14]
They want the skills but don't want to pay the bills.
There will be pro-pay in no time for them. It is just to address the pay gap between the civilian market and military. I expect to see it in the ATC world also. They pay a shit ton to keep airmen after they get rated. I have mixed feelings about it because it is in a very isolated skill group and not because they are a specialized skill, it is only being done because of money. They should be doing it for UAV/UAS operators, not IT. The IT WOs should be isolated to the Space Force. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:43:25 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rollpin: Neat and long overdue, but surely they know E5 isn't a rank? |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:52:37 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fugitive: Huh? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fugitive: Originally Posted By rollpin: Neat and long overdue, but surely they know E5 isn't a rank? E5 isn't a rank. It's a pay grade. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 7:57:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piccolo: E5 isn't a rank. It's a pay grade. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By piccolo: Originally Posted By Fugitive: Originally Posted By rollpin: Neat and long overdue, but surely they know E5 isn't a rank? E5 isn't a rank. It's a pay grade. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:05:20 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: again? When were pilots ever enlisted? Pre ww2 in both Army ACorp and the Navy. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:08:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Warrant officers in the air force? wtf?
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Posted: 5/11/2024 8:16:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Neat opportunity
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:10:20 AM EDT
[#21]
People would be retarded to not put in for cyber. Get the certs and clearances, do the time, then stand on the side of 495 or Route 32 with a piece of cardboard saying "CISSP TS//SCI" and you'll have people murdering each other to give you $200k/yr.
But you won't be able to work from home.  Kharn |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:29:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. There has never been a shortage of qualified people lining up at the door for SUPT. |
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Posted: 5/11/2024 10:33:22 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. Won’t ever happen. Warrant…maybe, but even then, competition for pilot slots is so high, they have zero problems filling pilot slots from the officer ranks. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 12:48:03 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Fugitive: Huh? The actual link has the requirements, which included sticking rank and E5 next to each other. Since they're only pulling from AF, it makes no sense to use paygrade and not rank - I can understand if they are pulling from across the DoD similar to USSF. But, it also makes no sense to say "rank" and then put E5 next to it. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 12:58:49 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again.  The AF doesn't have paper airplanes in its inventory. It will never happen. They will use AI first. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:02:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Chisum]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eroic: IIRC, WWI. ETA: 1912-1942 https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AFEHRI/documents/EnlistedPilots/McDonald.pdf They were ferry pilots. None ever flew combat. In 1942 they were all made 2 Lts. |
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WY, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:08:58 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. They certainly should for drones. It fucking retarded to make Os drone operators. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:18:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: There has never been a shortage of qualified people lining up at the door for SUPT. The rumor via eDodo was that some grads were intentionally washing out of UPT. Then Mama Blue was cutting their losses entirely…giving them the boot to the civilian world without an intermediate “stay” as a non-rated officer to complete their 5 year (non-rated) ADSC. That was the rumor….oh about 10 to 15 years ago. Supposedly. Which sucks because they just robbed some other dude who really wanted to fly from getting a UPT slot. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:24:33 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Michaelrm: Technically wrong, as the Air Force didn't exist in WW2; it was the Army Air Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Michaelrm: Originally Posted By Saint_Peter: Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII: The navy and marines had enlisted pilots before and during WW2. So did the Air Force. Technically wrong, as the Air Force didn't exist in WW2; it was the Army Air Fixed. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:38:56 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SARS: They certainly should for drones. It fucking retarded to make Os drone operators. Our very own Low_Country when he was posting with his original screename,, a few years ago posted a contractor drone job opening. It was $900 per day. HELL YEAH! Where do I sign up? Just some quick “napkin math”, ASSuming just a Monday through Friday gig….5 days a week…900 bucks per day comes out to $234,000 at the end of a year. That’s more than what 18 to 20 year zipper suited sungod light colonels make even with the retention bonus:  Attached FileWhat does a First Officer with Southwest / Delta / Alaskan Air make per year? What does a Captain make? I am ASSuming that a Captain/F.O. Are both still limited by the FAA to 100 hours per month??? Are drone operators limited hours-wise per month? How many Air Force officer pilots who were drone operators for Y years get to retire from active duty and then fly for the majors? |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:48:18 AM EDT
[Last Edit: bgrhammer]
[#31]
Without naming the service I've seen senior enlisted Airedale's sit left seat in high OP-TEMPO environments to spread around flight hours on deployed ships. PIC was always A "O" of some flavor. Once airborne controls were transferred and it was basically an operational instructive /maintenance flight on the books.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 1:50:21 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: again? When were pilots ever enlisted? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperSixOne: Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII: Next logical step is to start training enlisted pilots again. In Great Britain in WWII? |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 2:41:25 AM EDT
[#33]
There were still a few Warrants on active duty as late as 1973. Two ways to spot them were the gold bars with blue squares. 1 square for WO-1 to four squares for for WO-4.
The other way was their brown uniform shoes. A hold over from the Army. Oh, and these guys were ancient. Their pay was equivalent to officers. I believe, but don’t quote me on this it’s been over fifty years, WO-1 was captain to WO-4 full colonel. When they spoke generals shut up and listened. We had one WO-4 at George AFB who daily came by the firehouse for lunch. He said our chow was better than the officer’s mess. He liked to sit with the lowest ranking folks. Taught us all a lot. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 2:59:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: yankee43]
[#34]
No respect from me for anyone enlisting or re-enlisting since 2020.
Volunteering to serve an illegitimate tyrannical regime makes one an accessory to tyranny. The Biden regime has openly and publicly stated that the military “serves this administration”. Contrary to serving and protecting the people, the military will be used against the people, just like the IRS, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, FCC, and FAA. I don’t wish the U.S. military harm, but I am indifferent to them. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:09:38 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By yankee43: No respect from me for anyone enlisting or re-enlisting since 2020. Volunteering to serve an illegitimate tyrannical regime makes one an accessory to tyranny. The Biden regime has openly and publicly stated that the military “serves this administration”. Contrary to serving and protecting the people, the military will be used against the people, just like the IRS, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, FCC, and FAA. I don’t wish the U.S. military harm, but I am indifferent to them. The military doesn’t serve the administration. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:31:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By yankee43: No respect from me for anyone enlisting or re-enlisting since 2020. Volunteering to serve an illegitimate tyrannical regime makes one an accessory to tyranny. The Biden regime has openly and publicly stated that the military “serves this administration”. Contrary to serving and protecting the people, the military will be used against the people, just like the IRS, FBI, CIA, NSA, DHS, FCC, and FAA. I don’t wish the U.S. military harm, but I am indifferent to them. And this is why we don't smoke crack. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:36:16 AM EDT
[#37]
What does the WO pay for the IT position? Just curious.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:46:02 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RattleCanAR: The military doesn’t serve the administration. It not supposed to… |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:49:16 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jeepnik: There were still a few Warrants on active duty as late as 1973. Two ways to spot them were the gold bars with blue squares. 1 square for WO-1 to four squares for for WO-4. The other way was their brown uniform shoes. A hold over from the Army. Oh, and these guys were ancient. Their pay was equivalent to officers. I believe, but don't quote me on this it's been over fifty years, WO-1 was captain to WO-4 full colonel. When they spoke generals shut up and listened. We had one WO-4 at George AFB who daily came by the firehouse for lunch. He said our chow was better than the officer's mess. He liked to sit with the lowest ranking folks. Taught us all a lot. There were a handful of WO's in the Air Force in 1975. I ran across two at Lowry. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 8:55:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kharn: People would be retarded to not put in for cyber. Get the certs and clearances, do the time, then stand on the side of 495 or Route 32 with a piece of cardboard saying "CISSP TS//SCI" and you'll have people murdering each other to give you $200k/yr. But you won't be able to work from home. Kharn This. I work on the Army side of cyber. Yes, those who maintian their job qualifications get specialzied pay. Yes, my company want the hire them as soon as they get out. How bad? My company has a recruiting offer this summer. The most is for qualied TS/SCI. How much could I make recruiting three with that clearance level? First one is $10k Secomd one is $20k Third one is $30k Yeah, they are in high demand. ROCK6 |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:20:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: The rumor via eDodo was that some grads were intentionally washing out of UPT. Then Mama Blue was cutting their losses entirely…giving them the boot to the civilian world without an intermediate “stay” as a non-rated officer to complete their 5 year (non-rated) ADSC. That was the rumor….oh about 10 to 15 years ago. Supposedly. Which sucks because they just robbed some other dude who really wanted to fly from getting a UPT slot. I was a UPT IP 10-15 years ago, and I never saw anything like that. That being said, during certain times there have been USAFA cadets who were forced into UPT slots that they didn't want, but I never ran into any who were washing themselves out on purpose. To the contrary, the Commanders Review Boards were doing everything they could to *not* wash students out, as AETC had an idiotic metric where UPT Wing Commanders were being judged on their *completion rate*. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:23:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: MudEagle]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WeimaranerDad: Our very own Low_Country when he was posting with his original screename,, a few years ago posted a contractor drone job opening. It was $900 per day. HELL YEAH! Where do I sign up? Just some quick “napkin math”, ASSuming just a Monday through Friday gig….5 days a week…900 bucks per day comes out to $234,000 at the end of a year. That’s more than what 18 to 20 year zipper suited sungod light colonels make even with the retention bonus: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/B759C2A1-DE21-4890-9A4C-3F3BC29FBBA2_jpe-3212233.JPG What does a First Officer with Southwest / Delta / Alaskan Air make per year? What does a Captain make? I am ASSuming that a Captain/F.O. Are both still limited by the FAA to 100 hours per month??? Are drone operators limited hours-wise per month? How many Air Force officer pilots who were drone operators for Y years get to retire from active duty and then fly for the majors? The problem with *all* of the high-paying contractor flying jobs is that they have no longevity or stability. With contracts getting re-bid with regularity, the company you deploy with today might not be around tomorrow. So, while the airlines are certainly not a panacea of stability (with track records of slowdowns, furloughs, mergers, etc) they're still far more stable than DoD contractors. Every single pilot that left active duty at the same time I did who chose to go fly for a contractor has since gone to the airlines...with 5 years less seniority and contributions to their retirement. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:24:51 AM EDT
[#43]
Warrant officers are best officers.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:25:20 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: By the time I made Master Chief the Navy had instituted IT Warrant Officers. I didn't want to take the pay cut. Upon appointment, some WOs maintain their enlisted pay and it doesn’t go down. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:28:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Paul: By the time I made Master Chief the Navy had instituted IT Warrant Officers. I didn't want to take the pay cut. This is the part I love about the guys who are salivating for "enlisted pilots" to make a return. "I can't wait to go do that job for a lot less money and less retirement benefits!!" If anyone thinks that it is bizarre that the AF can't retain experienced flyers on active duty for O-3/4/5 pay, wait until you see how hard it is at E-4/5/6 or WO-1/2/3 pay! |
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AL, USA
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:33:35 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: I was a UPT IP 10-15 years ago, and I never saw anything like that. That being said, during certain times there have been USAFA cadets who were forced into UPT slots that they didn't want, but I never ran into any who were washing themselves out on purpose. To the contrary, the Commanders Review Boards were doing everything they could to *not* wash students out, as AETC had an idiotic metric where UPT Wing Commanders were being judged on their *completion rate*. I do know personally of a few that did. The reason being, if they DOR, the job they are assigned is "needs of the air force", while if they wash out for performance reasons they get a letter of rec from the wg/cc to the reclass board with their top 3 preferences on it. Result was the DORs usually got high-need, low-desire jobs like missiles/sf, and the others got intel/contracting/etc. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:35:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: This is the part I love about the guys who are salivating for "enlisted pilots" to make a return. "I can't wait to go do that job for a lot less money and less retirement benefits!!" If anyone thinks that it is bizarre that the AF can't retain experienced flyers on active duty for O-3/4/5 pay, wait until you see how hard it is at E-4/5/6 or WO-1/2/3 pay! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: Originally Posted By Paul: By the time I made Master Chief the Navy had instituted IT Warrant Officers. I didn't want to take the pay cut. This is the part I love about the guys who are salivating for "enlisted pilots" to make a return. "I can't wait to go do that job for a lot less money and less retirement benefits!!" If anyone thinks that it is bizarre that the AF can't retain experienced flyers on active duty for O-3/4/5 pay, wait until you see how hard it is at E-4/5/6 or WO-1/2/3 pay! I know a couple guys who fly for the majors but are E7-9 (insert random AFSC) in the Guard/Reserves. Too old to get an O slot by the time they decided to take up flying but got snatched up by regionals for having a pulse.
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Posted: 5/12/2024 9:41:39 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: This is the part I love about the guys who are salivating for "enlisted pilots" to make a return. "I can't wait to go do that job for a lot less money and less retirement benefits!!" If anyone thinks that it is bizarre that the AF can't retain experienced flyers on active duty for O-3/4/5 pay, wait until you see how hard it is at E-4/5/6 or WO-1/2/3 pay! Exactly. The only reason people prefer being a warrant in the Army is the fact there is no degree requirement and most importantly, more flying and less administrative tasks. The idea you would fly for enlisted pay is frankly retarded. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 2:24:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: I was a UPT IP 10-15 years ago, and I never saw anything like that. That being said, during certain times there have been USAFA cadets who were forced into UPT slots that they didn't want, but I never ran into any who were washing themselves out on purpose. To the contrary, the Commanders Review Boards were doing everything they could to *not* wash students out, as AETC had an idiotic metric where UPT Wing Commanders were being judged on their *completion rate*. In the 1960’s, 1970’s, and 1980’s, if you got a UPT slot as a firstie at USAFA and you didn’t want to go to UPT, you got to talk to the Commandant of Cadets….who tried to talk some sense into you. But in the mid 1990’s, along came the Clintons and the rest of the democrats slashing the military budgets. So the classes of 93, 94, and 95, only got 225 UPT slots each. As far as the eDodo rumor mill goes, I doubted the comments about UPT wash outs. eDodo was kind of a weird place. Sometimes it appeared to be a contest of who could out troll who. |
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Posted: 5/12/2024 2:42:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WeimaranerDad]
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MudEagle: The problem with *all* of the high-paying contractor flying jobs is that they have no longevity or stability. With contracts getting re-bid with regularity, the company you deploy with today might not be around tomorrow. So, while the airlines are certainly not a panacea of stability (with track records of slowdowns, furloughs, mergers, etc) they're still far more stable than DoD contractors. Every single pilot that left active duty at the same time I did who chose to go fly for a contractor has since gone to the airlines...with 5 years less seniority and contributions to their retirement. If one has gone to UPT, secured a cockpit (or cabin…whatever the new PC term is now) for X amount of years and they are now getting near the end of their active duty service commitment of 10 years, they would be getting out as junior Majors (O-4’s). And they would be right around 33 to 35 years old. That’s assuming they didn’t take the flight retention bonus. If there were no wife and kid(s) pressure….if a dude was single, then HELL YEAH! Jump on the drone contract gig for a year. Then in the interim keep submitting apps to the airlines. And hopefully Southwest calls you before the year is up. That is if you want/need that stability in your life. As far as I can recall about Low_Country’s drone operator ad, I am 90% sure it was in CONUS, and if my memory is correct, it was at Creech. I am ASSuming that on the first officer seniority list 5 years is HUGE??? EDIT: I have to wonder to what effect this new “blended retirement” in the military is going to have on pilot retention??? |
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