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Posted: 1/23/2021 5:09:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 5:09:55 PM EST by radian23]
I have an attached 2 car garage that has a single GFCI outlet.  The same circuit also feeds the garage door opener, outdoor lights and the microwave in my kitchen.  I decided I need to upgrade as running permanent extensions cords with splitters just isn't right.  
Plan is to install a 20 amp circuit feeding 9 double gang boxes and the garage door opener.  This would give me 3 double gang boxes per wall.  Plan is to put on a blank cover for the existing 15 amp outlet so I can have a dedicated circuit for the microwave and outdoor lights.  

Question I have is what is the best way to wire the outlets.  I could daisy chain from one to the next but I have concerns about potentially 10 boxes being daisy chained together.  I was thinking to put a AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker in the panel, run romex to a junction box and run a branch to each wall and one to the garage door opener.  This would mean each branch would feed only 3 double gang boxes.  As for things that this circuit would feed it would be an irrigation controller, 2 chest freezers, radio, and garage door opener.  I would infrequently use my drill press, miter saw and table saw.  


Link Posted: 1/23/2021 5:19:42 PM EST
No matter how you wire it, it’s still just a 20amp circuit.  You will use 12 gauge wire.  It will handle 20 amps, no matter what.  The breaker will kick before you exceed the rating for the wire.  If you are wiring it new I’d run a 30amp or a double pole 20 with small circuit box in the garage. With the double 20 you can still run 12 gauge and you get 2 20amp breakers in the garage.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 5:47:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 5:48:31 PM EST by radian23]
Running 2 circuit isn't a bad idea but I don't see myself needing that much capacity.  The electrical panel is already in the garage so if I need the capacity I'll run a second romex from the panel to the junction box which would be pretty easy.  The tandem breaker would be nice as the box is getting a bit full but I don't see a GFCI tandem breaker for cutter and hammer.  I already have some 6/2 wire coming from home depot to hookup a 220V outlet.  Looking forward to the wall fishing.  Finished and insulated walls of course...
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:27:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 6:35:32 PM EST by SteelonSteel]
Well you need to think some things through. Not sure if you need to pull a permit for the work.  

Some of the latest codes go contrary to what yyou would want, specifically I wouldn’t want two freezers full of meat on a gfci.  Trip a gfci (which is common with some fridges and freezers, or I should say not uncommon enough).    In your shoes I would begin the outlet run on the freezers then go to a gfci outlet to protect the rest of the outlet run.

Lights would be on a seperate breaker.  Nothing worse than triggering an electric grinder and your air compressor decides that is the time to trip the low pressure setting on the control pressure switch.   Poof, you’re now in the dark.



Ten outlet devices are not a problem.   They are considered convenience outlet locations assuming your total load on the breaker is within capacity.  Plugging five machine tools into a circuit in a home shop is normally fine.   You generally aren’t using the table saw and another tool simultaneously.


Now do your amp draw calcs and considerations.  If your freezers are on that same circuit, know the motor start up amp draw on them.  The running amp usage is much lower.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:32:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 6:33:27 PM EST by radian23]
Permit does need to be pulled for the work.  GFCI is unfortunately required on the freezers.  I'm just glad they don't need AFCI because it's in the garage.  Lights will be on the existing 15amp circuit so they'll be separate.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:38:19 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 6:52:20 PM EST by SteelonSteel]
Talk to your inspector about concerns of the gfci failure on the freezers and have the protection after them.  If he balks do it his way.   If after you find a rotten chest full of garbage,....move the gfci downstream.

They do make freezer alarms though.  If I had to run a freezer on a gfci I would have an alarm on it for peace of mind.


The other stupid one now is having a gfci on the garage door opener.  It is kind of hard to reach that button on the ceiling, especially if your vehicle is parked under it.


If you walls are already finished, consider surface mounting in conduit.   You can change things easily as needed down the road.  

My 120v stuff is in my finished walls like the house.  My outlets are chest high.   No hiding behind sheets of plywood and at good height for work benches.  

My 240v stuff is in EMT conduit runs.  

Metal lathe, compressor, several welding outlets.  3 seperate circuits.  Oddball is a 120v EMT surface run for a hot dawg heater I added later, with a technician off switch at the unit and a red box emergency shutoff by the man door.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 6:54:47 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/23/2021 6:58:06 PM EST by radian23]
Unfortunately I already checked and inspector says GFCI is required.    As for conduit it's not a bad idea and something to consider.  

GFCI on the garage door is really dumb.  They make these specifically for the garage door.  

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-GFRBF-W-Self-Test-SmartlockPro-Receptacle/dp/B013OVCLOO/

Well not specifically but it's a common use for them.  Beats climbing up on a ladder to reset it.  Part of the reason I'm just going to get a breaker with GFCI.  

Link Posted: 1/23/2021 7:30:29 PM EST
I’m not an electrician by trade. But shouldn’t you need 6/3 for a 220 outlet? There’s a neutral on a 220 outlet. Someone can probably correct me and learn me something though
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 7:32:21 PM EST
That was a typo on my part.  Yes 6/2 with ground.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 7:33:32 PM EST
The plastic conduit is very home owner friendly except you’re not making your own bends.....which means you might make an extra trip for missed items on your shopping list.  

I used EMT, my brother was a union electrician before going to the power supply side of the pole.  He got me started and taught me how to bend sweeps and saddles.   Me being cheap got good at doing 1/2” conduit with a 3/4” bender.  

Link Posted: 1/23/2021 7:58:43 PM EST
I wish they would update building regs one or two outlets are never enough in a garage.

Our freezer is in the garage and has been plugged into a GFCI for the last twenty years (second freezer). We worried about the outlet tripping so we plugged an auto night light in the same outlet so we would know if it tripped for some reason.
Link Posted: 1/23/2021 9:55:43 PM EST
If you have room in your box, just add a couple circuits and home run them. Maybe one to each side of the garage.  If you only have one or two slots open, you can get a double breaker that is slim and fits one slot.
Link Posted: 1/25/2021 9:21:17 AM EST
I have 7 or 8 outlets daisy chained to one 20 amp breaker. The only thing I can't do is run my window unit and compressor at the same time. 12 ga wire.
Link Posted: 1/25/2021 11:27:53 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Muels:
I’m not an electrician by trade. But shouldn’t you need 6/3 for a 220 outlet? There’s a neutral on a 220 outlet. Someone can probably correct me and learn me something though
View Quote

I'll correct you...lol

Not all 220 circuits have a neutral, some do, some don't. So it depends if OP wants a neutral.

IMHO, it would be short-sighted to run a 220 circuit w/o a neutral. I wired all mine in my shop w/ neutrals bc all it takes is 1 machine that requires a neutral to screw it all up. So all my 220s are 4-prong w/ neutral and if I have equipment that doesn't require a neutral I just don't have a wire connected to the neutral prong inside of the plug.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 1:01:53 PM EST
I hate feed through GFCI outlets.  I want only the offending outlet tripping off, not everything downstream.  I pulled all the regular duplex receptacles off these circuits and replace each with a GFCI, without using the feed through screws.
Link Posted: 1/26/2021 1:11:30 PM EST
If you are running circuits to the garage anyway, I would run a subpanel.  

Tools run heavy, and it's nice to have sufficient amperage and the breaker box close by.  

If you have a deep freeze or refrigerator in the garage, you might want them on a separate circuit (especially if you occasionally have to run them on a generator).

Regardless of whether you run a subpanel, keep the garage door opener and lights on a separate circuit from the other outlets.  When you blow the breaker running a table saw or other tool, it's nice to have the light stay on as you walk to flip them back on.
Link Posted: 1/27/2021 12:55:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By radian23:
Unfortunately I already checked and inspector says GFCI is required.    As for conduit it's not a bad idea and something to consider.  

GFCI on the garage door is really dumb.  They make these specifically for the garage door.  

https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-GFRBF-W-Self-Test-SmartlockPro-Receptacle/dp/B013OVCLOO/

Well not specifically but it's a common use for them.  Beats climbing up on a ladder to reset it.  Part of the reason I'm just going to get a breaker with GFCI.  

View Quote
Code says the garage door opener receptacle has to be gfci protected.  It does not say the actual receptacle the opener is plugged into has to be a gfci.  Installing a gfci receptacle in a non accessible place (like the ceiling) is also against code and a competent inspector would call this out.  I agree that a gfci breaker is probably the best solution for your situation.

Conduit has it's advantages if you have finished walls and don't care about it the conduit being visible.  Be aware, if you are running conduit as a closed raceway (i.e. box to box) that fill calcs for NM (romex) cable are different from the calcs for individual conductors.  The short version is if you run romex in conduit you'll need much bigger conduit than if you run the same circuits with individual THHN or THWN conductors.
Link Posted: 1/31/2021 2:46:16 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By radian23:
Running 2 circuit isn't a bad idea but I don't see myself needing that much capacity.  The electrical panel is already in the garage so if I need the capacity I'll run a second romex from the panel to the junction box which would be pretty easy.  The tandem breaker would be nice as the box is getting a bit full but I don't see a GFCI tandem breaker for cutter and hammer.  I already have some 6/2 wire coming from home depot to hookup a 220V outlet.  Looking forward to the wall fishing.  Finished and insulated walls of course...
View Quote


Make sure the lights are on a separate circuit.

Nothing worse than standing in the dark while a wool winds down.

How many tools are you going to run at the same time?

A 3 HP router and a large shop vac may not fit well on a 20 A circuit.

Do NOT run a 30 amp circuit.
You cannot install normal receptacles on a circuit that large.
They are rated for 20 amps.
Link Posted: 1/31/2021 2:49:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/31/2021 2:51:40 PM EST by brickeyee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By radian23:
GFCI is unfortunately required on the freezers.
View Quote


I will NOT install a GFCI on a freezer.
Make sure it is well grounded.
If the GFCI trips on a compressor start up you will likely lose the contents of the freezer.

Remote freezers should all have temperature alarms and not alarms that use the freezer circuit.

I usually try to have a single receptacle on freezer circuits dedicated to each freezer if you have more than one.

A light that is used daily in the kitchen can ride on the freezer circuit, but just using alarms is not all that hard.
Put the alarm box in the kitchen so you will hear it.
Link Posted: 1/31/2021 9:01:41 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By brickeyee:


I will NOT install a GFCI on a freezer.
Make sure it is well grounded.
If the GFCI trips on a compressor start up you will likely lose the contents of the freezer.

Remote freezers should all have temperature alarms and not alarms that use the freezer circuit.

I usually try to have a single receptacle on freezer circuits dedicated to each freezer if you have more than one.

A light that is used daily in the kitchen can ride on the freezer circuit, but just using alarms is not all that hard.
Put the alarm box in the kitchen so you will hear it.
View Quote



Many years ago when I did electrical work we would run dedicated circuits to fridges and freezers and never put them on a gfci and never had a problem with the inspector.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 3:08:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2021 3:09:54 PM EST by brickeyee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By radian23:
Well not specifically but it's a common use for them.  Beats climbing up on a ladder to reset it.  Part of the reason I'm just going to get a breaker with GFCI.
View Quote


Use a breaker.
While not as convenient as pushing a button in the same room
(and the extra cable it may take to use the Leviton GFCI shown)
You could just put a Receptacle GFCI on the wall and feed the Door Opener through that.
Why pay more for a lower production GFCI?
That Leviton unit is over $20.
Just use a plain old receptacle mounted device in an accessible location.
The ladder option does not work if the car is parked in the garage.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 3:13:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2021 3:14:05 PM EST by brickeyee]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JosephTurrisi:



Many years ago when I did electrical work we would run dedicated circuits to fridges and freezers and never put them on a gfci and never had a problem with the inspector.
View Quote


The conflict here is that ALL receptacles in a garage must be GFCI protected.
Same in unfinished basement areas.
Like a laundry room that often has unfinished wall.

The inspector will not be back to make sure the GFCI remains connected.

As a PE that would be a bad idea on anything but my own house.
Link Posted: 2/3/2021 3:21:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2021 3:24:35 PM EST by GlutealCleft]
Do yourself a favor, run a subpanel in the garage.  Then you can break out whatever you need, and have room to grow as your tools and other usage grows.
Link Posted: 2/4/2021 10:03:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By radian23:
I have an attached 2 car garage that has a single GFCI outlet.  The same circuit also feeds the garage door opener, outdoor lights and the microwave in my kitchen.  I decided I need to upgrade as running permanent extensions cords with splitters just isn't right.  
Plan is to install a 20 amp circuit feeding 9 double gang boxes and the garage door opener.  This would give me 3 double gang boxes per wall.  Plan is to put on a blank cover for the existing 15 amp outlet so I can have a dedicated circuit for the microwave and outdoor lights.  

Question I have is what is the best way to wire the outlets.  I could daisy chain from one to the next but I have concerns about potentially 10 boxes being daisy chained together.  I was thinking to put a AFCI/GFCI circuit breaker in the panel, run romex to a junction box and run a branch to each wall and one to the garage door opener.  This would mean each branch would feed only 3 double gang boxes.  As for things that this circuit would feed it would be an irrigation controller, 2 chest freezers, radio, and garage door opener.  I would infrequently use my drill press, miter saw and table saw.  


View Quote
I am in the exact same position helping my Bro-in-law with his detached garage. We are meting with an engineer from the power company tomorrow to plan adding a separate meter and 200AMP service to the barn.

Here is what I am planning...

All circuits will be protected by GFCI/CAFCI breakers at the panel with the exception of Freezer and Refrigerator.

     1. A history of mouse in barn eating wires requires CAFCI. (Barn Cats are Awesome in this fight BTW)!!!
     2. Freezer and Refrigerator will be powered by 2 separate circuits with only GFCI at outlet to start. I have read newer GFCI/CAFCI breakers respond better to Freezers and less possibility of tripping.
     3. Will be installing temp alarms to both during this.
     
Run your circuits in parallel since your protection is at the panel.


https://youtu.be/QFqQZNva0GY


Link Posted: 2/6/2021 9:13:28 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GlutealCleft:
Do yourself a favor, run a subpanel in the garage.  Then you can break out whatever you need, and have room to grow as your tools and other usage grows.
View Quote

This is what I did.  My garage walls are finished, so everything is surface-mounted, but it gets me where I need to go...
Link Posted: 2/6/2021 11:08:26 AM EST
In my old house i ran conduit around just above the stem wall with 12/2 for two additional circuits. One for two freezers and one for outlets.
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