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Posted: 9/27/2022 3:27:44 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, good luck with that. Per the last thread, the A1 line was shut down when the Marines divested themselves of tanks. So, any tanks taken out of the desert would require a complete rebuild to A2 SEP standards. Take existing orders into account and those tanks might be in Ukraine around 2024-5. You’d be better off talking the sultan out of his Sabras and Leopards in exchange for transmissions and engines for his licensed K2. yep the sabras would be a great one to send to Ukraine |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 4:06:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bulgaria: not happening. Czechia: donated 40+ of 106 and need a replacement. Hungary: not happening. Morocco is close to the US and could probably be worked with in exchange for Abrams. North Macedonia: gave theirs back to Ukraine Slovakia: 30, mostly in reserve. So if you got ALL of the available European T-72s, that’s…100ish, mostly of the monkey model and mostly from reserves that need a rebuild. And it’s likely that many of these were already donated and we didn’t get them counted yet. That’s not going to cut it. On paper there’s nearly 250 M-84s (Yugo T-72) between Bosnia, Kuwait, and Croatia. Kuwait already operates Abrams and Croatia has Bradleys on order. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 4:08:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Give them older models if they need them RFN, and/or make them buy the upgraded versions later
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Posted: 9/27/2022 4:09:00 AM EDT
[#4]
Seriously, if they pay up front is an option, what, with our own money, or will cunter broker the deal to get a percentage along with the big guy.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 4:11:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On paper there’s nearly 250 M-84s (Yugo T-72) between Bosnia, Kuwait, and Croatia. Kuwait already operates Abrams and Croatia has Bradleys on order. It’s worth trying but it’s not likely. I would love to see the worlds T-72 supply bought and then destroyed in the war. But I don’t see it happening. Those 250 would cover 6-8 months of operational losses. They’ll need twice or thrice that to come out of 2023 with as much power as they have now. Now, you might get some South Korean T-80s but plainly more vehicles are needed. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:00:42 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing against you, but like I said, pushing 60. And the parts, tools, and "other stuff" isn't even around anymore. And we need more than a couple guys able to go into or near a warzone, without keeling over from a heart attack before they do any work. It would take months just to find and support a few dozen contractors. Anyway that wasn't the point of the thread. I was just  when someone said M60...that would be like Battleship Missouri level pipe dreams.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:07:52 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:21:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The U.S. hasn't given away any first-line equipment aside from expendable munitions, and even that has been old stock or legacy versions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does anyone else notice how we are on a runaway train giving away the bank and everything else? We are depleting our national defense reserves by blindly dumping them into a lost cause to be grinded up into ash. This has to leave us extremely vulnerable to the world. It's as if we are racing towards insignificance and helplessness. The U.S. hasn't given away any first-line equipment aside from expendable munitions, and even that has been old stock or legacy versions. HIMARS. Which the Ukrainians have been using well. I’m not convinced sending them M1s is the best move, but we’ve sent them to at least four Arab states who are all less worthy and unlikely to ever make good use of them. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:25:27 AM EDT
[#9]
The have all the Russian tanks they could ever want. Russian tanks vs. Russian tanks. It's like an IROC for tankers.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:26:07 AM EDT
[#10]
I thought this was about Stacey.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:28:16 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: at some point we become combatants in this....we are VERY close to it and this is not a good idea While I dont care about either side, fuck Russia. I hope we wipe them off the fucking map. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:36:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Why sell Ukraine tanks, when they are big honking targets in open fields and Russia is able strike from the air.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 8:41:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Ukraine is paying for the weapons and hypothetical tanks. They are paying in the form of degrading a global adversary back to the 50s without a single us service person getting killed. If you look at the costs involved with the US waging a conventional war vs supporting a country who is forced to fight its a no brainer. You Can set russia back 60 to 70 years for the cost of a few months of GWOT.
Think of it like finding a 90% off coupon for something you might need next week. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:09:30 AM EDT
[#14]
His meteoric rise surprises me a bit. After watching some of his lectures on YouTube, it seems to me that he states a lot of the obvious. Perhaps that’s just how clinical psychology works.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:18:53 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His meteoric rise surprises me a bit. After watching some of his lectures on YouTube, it seems to me that he states a lot of the obvious. Perhaps that's just how clinical psychology works. Like everyone he gets it wrong IMHO, on occasion, but he bats well above average. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:22:08 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . it's a shame we left all that stuff in Afghanistan that Ukrainians coulda used . Quote HistoryQuoted: . it's a shame we left all that stuff in Afghanistan that Ukrainians coulda used . Like what? Ranger pickups and ragged-out M1114s? Quoted: Does anyone ever ask, have our intelligence agencies always been this wrong about Russian military capability or were we just intentionally misled all this time? If they’ve been this wrong all this time, why do we still need them? If they intentionally misled us all this time, why do we still need them? How were they wrong? The nature of illicit activities like corruption and their effects on force readiness are almost impossible to measure, especially from the outside. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:23:04 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No thats not correct, Fun fact: M60s remain the most numerous main battle tank in service in many countries today, including Egypt (1,700), Turkey (932), Taiwan (450), Saudi Arabia (450), Morocco (427), Thailand (178), and Bahrain (180.) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Our NATO allies have tons of them and tons of maintainers, thats why the idea of sending them M60a3 is involved in the talks.. lots of M60's in ready storage in Europe just sitting there, alot of them have been upgraded with ERA. and night sights The US and almost all European nations have no M60s left. Arabs got most of them and they aren’t going to give them back. No thats not correct, Fun fact: M60s remain the most numerous main battle tank in service in many countries today, including Egypt (1,700), Turkey (932), Taiwan (450), Saudi Arabia (450), Morocco (427), Thailand (178), and Bahrain (180.) I would rather see Saudi Arabia and Egypt send their M1s to Ukraine and keep their M60s. They are not likely to make good use of their tanks, so better to send the best ones to someone who will. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:27:25 AM EDT
[#18]
Just like the $$ thread - not another fucking thing for them , nothing .
What the absolute fuck ! Why ? ? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:30:39 AM EDT
[#19]
Yes send tanks but payment not required upfront
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:31:13 AM EDT
[#20]
Isnt there a shitload of old 105mm armed m1 sitting in a depot in the desert somewhere? Those things should be good enough against the crap the russians are running.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:32:07 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes send tanks but payment not required upfront |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:37:21 AM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:41:03 AM EDT
[#23]
I’d not supply them to Ukraine…….
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:46:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DATs dropped out then the M60A3 was mothballed. They are now CDATs. I retired as a DAT i 1989. What is a CAT? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:48:25 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Idk, Tanks require a huge amount of logistics. Unless there’s a big breakthrough in active protection, there’s not much point. Can our latest M1’s defend themselves from a Javelin or a Drone? It’s not a question of whether the M1 can defend itself from those threats, but whether the combined arms team can deal with them. Experience with ATGMs shows that combined arms tactics can overcome that threat. Drone defense is a developing problem, and it applies to everything, not just tanks. Nothing on the battlefield has ever been invincible, including the tank. For some reason the tank is the one system that people think is useless if it’s possible to kill it. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:57:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who is talking about deploying U.S. civilian contractors to Ukraine? I'm sure in time anyone with an average IQ could learn how to operate, maintain, and effectively use the Abrams, but that all takes time and that is a precious commodity not to mention money. Such resources would be spent much better elsewhere for Ukraine. Agree. It takes years to become a top level M1 tech. Who in UKR. is going to shit the specialized tools and test equipment? It takes time, training and experience to pull a pack or a turret without fuckin something up. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 9:57:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s worth trying but it’s not likely. I would love to see the worlds T-72 supply bought and then destroyed in the war. But I don’t see it happening. Those 250 would cover 6-8 months of operational losses. They’ll need twice or thrice that to come out of 2023 with as much power as they have now. Now, you might get some South Korean T-80s but plainly more vehicles are needed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: On paper there’s nearly 250 M-84s (Yugo T-72) between Bosnia, Kuwait, and Croatia. Kuwait already operates Abrams and Croatia has Bradleys on order. It’s worth trying but it’s not likely. I would love to see the worlds T-72 supply bought and then destroyed in the war. But I don’t see it happening. Those 250 would cover 6-8 months of operational losses. They’ll need twice or thrice that to come out of 2023 with as much power as they have now. Now, you might get some South Korean T-80s but plainly more vehicles are needed. Give the M1s to Poland and have them transfer their T-72s and models based on the T-72 (PT-91) to Ukraine. Believe they have several hundred. Better thing might be to give them Humvee's with TOWs/Javelins/NLAWs/Spike/LMAT and let them hit and run instead of fixing a fight with tanks. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:02:43 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Give the M1s to Poland and have them transfer their T-72s and models based on the T-72 (PT-91) to Ukraine. Believe they have several hundred. Better thing might be to give them Humvee's with TOWs/Javelins/NLAWs/Spike/LMAT and let them hit and run instead of fixing a fight with tanks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: On paper there’s nearly 250 M-84s (Yugo T-72) between Bosnia, Kuwait, and Croatia. Kuwait already operates Abrams and Croatia has Bradleys on order. It’s worth trying but it’s not likely. I would love to see the worlds T-72 supply bought and then destroyed in the war. But I don’t see it happening. Those 250 would cover 6-8 months of operational losses. They’ll need twice or thrice that to come out of 2023 with as much power as they have now. Now, you might get some South Korean T-80s but plainly more vehicles are needed. Give the M1s to Poland and have them transfer their T-72s and models based on the T-72 (PT-91) to Ukraine. Believe they have several hundred. Better thing might be to give them Humvee's with TOWs/Javelins/NLAWs/Spike/LMAT and let them hit and run instead of fixing a fight with tanks. Light vehicles with ATGMs isn’t the best plan for the offensive ops Ukraine needs to set the conditions they want for a ceasefire and negotiations. Like the tank destroyers of WWII, they are best suited to defensive operations. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:04:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isnt there a shitload of old 105mm armed m1 sitting in a depot in the desert somewhere? Those things should be good enough against the crap the russians are running. A lot of those were rebuilt to M1A2 standard. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:05:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I retired as a DAT i 1989. What is a CAT? M1s have buttons and screens and sensors and stuff. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:07:35 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why sell Ukraine tanks, when they are big honking targets in open fields and Russia is able strike from the air. Russia’s ability to strike from the air is actually pretty limited. Their own doctrine that they exported to Ukraine working against them. They are more capable with long range fires, but they are losing the ISR fight. If tanks are vulnerable from the air, so is everything else. And who says they have to be exposed in the open? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:11:31 AM EDT
[#32]
Considering tanks have been obsolete in peer and near peer conflicts..... sell them to them. For the last half century we've poured money into the losing (and crazy expensive) side of an arms race because of institutional inertia. Can definitely revisit the concept later as we develop new materials, but for now it's at best a waste of money and at worst a drain on logistics that will lose you wars.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:11:42 AM EDT
[#33]
Soon the pre-SMO Ukraine territory occupied by Russia and its allies will become legally a part of Russia proper. At that point Ukraine will be given an ultimatum to either withdraw its troops and stop attacks or Russia will declare war on Ukraine. More than likely Ukraine will chose Option B.
Russia is mobilizing 300,000 prior service reservists. After the muddy season is over, the leaves are down and the frozen ground covered in snow, Ukraine will face the full might of the Russian military. At this point, something like 60% of Ukraines pre-SMO regular military is lost as casualties. Ukraine has not only lost nearly all its original allotment of equipment but nearly all the replacements. Ukraines offensive actions at this point are small scale infantry assaults the thinking being better that than as static targets in trenches. Regardless, with no artillery, tanks and IFVs to speak of they are taking horrific losses. Casualties that do make it back to a hospital are nearly all the result of artillery and air strikes, very few due to small arms fire. In other words, unsupported conscript infantry against the coming Russian winter offensive is not going to cut it. Time to bite the bullet and send the entire German active Leopard 2 force (270), the entire M1A2 SEP force (1,000) with 1,000 or so Bradleys and Strykers along with significant self propelled artillery and MLRS if Ukraine is going to have any chance whatsoever. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:20:26 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Almost like there's a plan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does anyone else notice how we are on a runaway train giving away the bank and everything else? We are depleting our national defense reserves by blindly dumping them into a lost cause to be grinded up into ash. This has to leave us extremely vulnerable to the world. It's as if we are racing towards insignificance and helplessness. Almost like there's a plan. If only you could see it coming... |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:29:42 AM EDT
[#35]
 They're welcome to this one |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:33:26 AM EDT
[#36]
F*ck that sh*t. All we're doing is giving the Russians our technology and disarming our own soldiers to supply a foreign nation.
Besides, we're broke and how long before we replace the ones we've sent? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:39:14 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another Ukraine thread that discusses all the same shit that people have been discussing for months....with the exact same result. . Did you contribute to all of those too with your edge and wit? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:44:49 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Light vehicles with ATGMs isn’t the best plan for the offensive ops Ukraine needs to set the conditions they want for a ceasefire and negotiations. Like the tank destroyers of WWII, they are best suited to defensive operations. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: On paper there’s nearly 250 M-84s (Yugo T-72) between Bosnia, Kuwait, and Croatia. Kuwait already operates Abrams and Croatia has Bradleys on order. It’s worth trying but it’s not likely. I would love to see the worlds T-72 supply bought and then destroyed in the war. But I don’t see it happening. Those 250 would cover 6-8 months of operational losses. They’ll need twice or thrice that to come out of 2023 with as much power as they have now. Now, you might get some South Korean T-80s but plainly more vehicles are needed. Give the M1s to Poland and have them transfer their T-72s and models based on the T-72 (PT-91) to Ukraine. Believe they have several hundred. Better thing might be to give them Humvee's with TOWs/Javelins/NLAWs/Spike/LMAT and let them hit and run instead of fixing a fight with tanks. Light vehicles with ATGMs isn’t the best plan for the offensive ops Ukraine needs to set the conditions they want for a ceasefire and negotiations. Like the tank destroyers of WWII, they are best suited to defensive operations. They wouldn't get the tanks, training, and supporting equipment quickly enough to make much of a difference before Russia throws stuff into another offensive. If Poland donated all of their tanks, then that might be a quick fix, but would leave Poland exposed. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 10:52:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryHonestly she would do more damage to a country than a thousand tanks. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:08:21 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... Russia is mobilizing 300,000 prior service reservists. ...  But I'm sure they'll do great despite the rapidly declining quality of the equipment Russia can provide them. 
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:18:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If we had committed to training and equipping a single armored division on Feb 25th... they'd be ready today, with trained NCOs and officers at every level. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: More than anything, considering this move means it is looking like a long war. New equipment training/fielding takes a long time. If we had committed to training and equipping a single armored division on Feb 25th... they'd be ready today, with trained NCOs and officers at every level. At that time Joetard and his creatures didn’t expect or want Ukraine to hold out for a week, much less actually win. You are right, they should have been training troops and pilots to use first line equipment from the start, if they had the UA would be really bringing the pain now. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:28:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Soon the pre-SMO Ukraine territory occupied by Russia and its allies will become legally a part of Russia proper. At that point Ukraine will be given an ultimatum to either withdraw its troops and stop attacks or Russia will declare war on Ukraine. More than likely Ukraine will chose Option B. Russia is mobilizing 300,000 prior service reservists. After the muddy season is over, the leaves are down and the frozen ground covered in snow, Ukraine will face the full might of the Russian military. At this point, something like 60% of Ukraines pre-SMO regular military is lost as casualties. Ukraine has not only lost nearly all its original allotment of equipment but nearly all the replacements. Ukraines offensive actions at this point are small scale infantry assaults the thinking being better that than as static targets in trenches. Regardless, with no artillery, tanks and IFVs to speak of they are taking horrific losses. Casualties that do make it back to a hospital are nearly all the result of artillery and air strikes, very few due to small arms fire. In other words, unsupported conscript infantry against the coming Russian winter offensive is not going to cut it. Time to bite the bullet and send the entire German active Leopard 2 force (270), the entire M1A2 SEP force (1,000) with 1,000 or so Bradleys and Strykers along with significant self propelled artillery and MLRS if Ukraine is going to have any chance whatsoever. Have you been smoking banana peels? |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:38:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Taiwan should get first dibs, followed by Poland.
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:41:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Yes.
We should have a lot of older m60s that can be modernized like the Sabra and m60TM. Ukraine right now has: T55s 105mm T62s 115mm T72 125 mm T80 125mm T90 125mm |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:42:59 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They can go to Afghanistan and pick them up for free. What tanks were left in Afghanistan? Please specifics @m1zeppelin |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:43:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who are we going to be helpless against? Pretty much the main reason we even have all that stuff for is to fight Russians anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Does anyone else notice how we are on a runaway train giving away the bank and everything else? We are depleting our national defense reserves by blindly dumping them into a lost cause to be grinded up into ash. This has to leave us extremely vulnerable to the world. It's as if we are racing towards insignificance and helplessness. Who are we going to be helpless against? Pretty much the main reason we even have all that stuff for is to fight Russians anyway. It actually makes sense if you replace “we” in his post with “Russia”. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:44:02 AM EDT
[#47]
Last year we gave foreign aid to Egypt, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan (Taliban controlled now) and iraq. We are not giving ukraine money. We are giving them war assets… and generally our old shit (m777, m113, etc).
We spend almost a trillion a year primarily to exceed the threat posed by Russia and China. Sending weapons to ukraine so they can kill Russians for us is by far and above the best use of our aging equipment. The tanks sitting in the desert are a sunk cost. We already bought them, used them, and put them in the graveyard. sometimes I swear you guys are ignorant. If trump was leading the charge every one of you would be tripping over yourselves to defend sending Ukraine anything they desired. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:46:50 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: what does that pic have to do anything with this thread?? (besides that you post it in every Ukraine thread you see, ) what a strange obsession you have with zelensky Quote HistoryQuoted: what does that pic have to do anything with this thread?? (besides that you post it in every Ukraine thread you see, ) what a strange obsession you have with zelensky Contrast that picture with one of Zelenskyy when he meets Duda……quite illuminating. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:49:14 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well, the Marines aren’t using them anymore… Most of those went to Poland. |
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Posted: 9/27/2022 11:54:09 AM EDT
[#50]
Fuck yeah, honestly I'm not sure how people could oppose this because of the sheer awesome factor alone of having our tanks go against the Russian tanks.
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