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Posted: 5/26/2020 11:52:43 AM EDT
[#1]
A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 11:57:54 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:00:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? Same. That's a confusing answer. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:14:37 PM EDT
[#4]
I would bet a motor lifting a boat will draw enough at startup to trip that inverter. Does the motor have LRA stamped on the nameplate? That will be the startup draw.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 12:18:46 PM EDT
[#5]
I think a 100W solar panel to charge two 6 V golf cart batteries and a nice 1500W +/- inverter would do the trick. You may not need a pure sine wave, but might as well spend that money now, or you may waste it if your lift doesn't like the modified sine wave.
I just bought a 1000W Xantrex inverter and am happy with how it runs a 900W microwave and Keurig. Renogy solar panels worked well for me, but there are tons of options out there these days. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 2:15:22 PM EDT
[#6]
 Attached File Attached FileLooking at it again, it is a brushed motor... I wonder if it is a universal type since they make these kits in AC or DC... I am going to take it home from the lake and see if it will run on DC. No tag on the motor anywhere just the rating on a gfci. If is a universal motor I doubt it would care what the inverter puts out. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 7:50:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? Lots of things don't like modified sine waves. Motors hate them most of all. Motors running on modified sign wave run rougher and hotter. Now I saw that it is a brushed motor. Those can run on DC in some cases. I don't have experience running those on inverters but it might do alright in that case. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 8:31:02 PM EDT
[#8]
Pretty decent size motor for a 120v one. I’m a damn good electrician with a lot of experience in motors and controls, although never that small a motor. I doubt that will work, but I’ve never tried it. The kicker will be if the inverter can keep up with the start up load, which is likely to be several times the full load amps.
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Posted: 5/26/2020 8:34:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Are you going to lift a boat with it? You know boat ownership is never cheap.
Bust Out Another Thousand. |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 9:20:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave.  |
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Posted: 5/26/2020 9:24:49 PM EDT
[#11]
I drew a red mark to show what it is trying to immitate......
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Posted: 5/26/2020 9:47:09 PM EDT
[#12]
What about using a vfd fed from the inverter?
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Posted: 5/26/2020 11:20:57 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty decent size motor for a 120v one. I’m a damn good electrician with a lot of experience in motors and controls, although never that small a motor. I doubt that will work, but I’ve never tried it. The kicker will be if the inverter can keep up with the start up load, which is likely to be several times the full load amps. Kinda my point in starting this thread, I know some people have run a lot of stuff off of inverters... maybe I can pull this off, maybe not. I brought it to my healing bench so I could measure no load current and see if it will turn on DC. I was just running it on the wall outlet with the forward reverse switch and it is a high speed motor. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:04:22 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Kinda my point in starting this thread, I know some people have run a lot of stuff off of inverters... maybe I can pull this off, maybe not. I brought it to my healing bench so I could measure no load current and see if it will turn on DC. I was just running it on the wall outlet with the forward reverse switch and it is a high speed motor. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Pretty decent size motor for a 120v one. I’m a damn good electrician with a lot of experience in motors and controls, although never that small a motor. I doubt that will work, but I’ve never tried it. The kicker will be if the inverter can keep up with the start up load, which is likely to be several times the full load amps. Kinda my point in starting this thread, I know some people have run a lot of stuff off of inverters... maybe I can pull this off, maybe not. I brought it to my healing bench so I could measure no load current and see if it will turn on DC. I was just running it on the wall outlet with the forward reverse switch and it is a high speed motor. I would try to put some kind of load on it to simulate what your boat lift may have and if you have an amp clamp, see what it is drawing. Hopefully the Amp clamp will have a max/min function to see what peak draw happens to be. ETA, just keep in mind, whatever you get from regular commercial AC, add a little cushion to it to account for the greater inneficency of the MSW inverter (if you go the cheaper route) |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:16:49 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:19:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. It's ok, but not great, not even good, but it works in most cases.. It makes everything run hotter. If you constistantly run something off of one, it will likely have a shorter lifespan because of increased thermal stress. Your inefficiency almost always manifests itself as heat. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:26:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Just buy a smoke and noise generator from a big box store and run it when you need to lift the boat?
It's probably much cheaper than buying batteries, a charger and solar panels alone, nevermind the cost of a decent inverter of the size you'll need. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:27:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just buy a smoke and noise generator from a big box store and run it when you need to lift the boat? It's probably much cheaper than buying batteries, a charger and solar panels alone, nevermind the cost of a decent inverter of the size you'll need. I have seen an ad for just that at HF 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:34:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's ok, but not great, not even good, but it works in most cases.. It makes everything run hotter. If you constistantly run something off of one, it will likely have a shorter lifespan because of increased thermal stress. Your inefficiency almost always manifests itself as heat. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. It's ok, but not great, not even good, but it works in most cases.. It makes everything run hotter. If you constistantly run something off of one, it will likely have a shorter lifespan because of increased thermal stress. Your inefficiency almost always manifests itself as heat. It's fine. OP - one motor? not four? Soft start systems solve the LRA problem if there is one. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:35:57 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's fine. OP - one motor? not four? Soft start systems solve the LRA problem if there is one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. It's ok, but not great, not even good, but it works in most cases.. It makes everything run hotter. If you constistantly run something off of one, it will likely have a shorter lifespan because of increased thermal stress. Your inefficiency almost always manifests itself as heat. It's fine. OP - one motor? not four? Soft start systems solve the LRA problem if there is one. It's really crap, but it gets the job done. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:42:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's really crap, but it gets the job done. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A cheap inverter won't work. You need a more expensive pure sine wave inverter. Motors don't like the modified sine waves that cheap inverters put out. I thought pure sign wave was for laptops and so forth... an induction motor doesn't like the shitty wave form? If you look at the modified sine wave, you'll see, it is a hard turn positive from zero crossing, then a flat top for a few milliseconds, then a hard turn to zero volts where it hangs out for a couple millisecods and then a hard turn negative where it has a flat bottom for a few milliseconds and then a hard turn back to zero volts. There are a lot of nasty odd order harmonics in there. That makes the motor (or anything) run hotter than it would with a smooth transitioning sine wave. https://i.imgur.com/6NkujLG.jpg MSW is ok for everything but the most sensitive electronics. It's ok, but not great, not even good, but it works in most cases.. It makes everything run hotter. If you constistantly run something off of one, it will likely have a shorter lifespan because of increased thermal stress. Your inefficiency almost always manifests itself as heat. It's fine. OP - one motor? not four? Soft start systems solve the LRA problem if there is one. It's really crap, but it gets the job done. MSW inverters power computers safely. What more do you want? |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 6:44:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: MSW inverters power computers safely. What more do you want? I wouldn't think twice about running a light bulb or even some cheap electronics continuously from one. Anything else though, other than short term, intermittant use, no thanks. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:01:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't think twice about running a light bulb or even some cheap electronics continuously from one. Anything else though, other than short term, intermittant use, no thanks. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: MSW inverters power computers safely. What more do you want? I wouldn't think twice about running a light bulb or even some cheap electronics continuously from one. Anything else though, other than short term, intermittant use, no thanks. You're treating MSW as if they are square wave.  Attached File Attached File Attached FileThis is from RV systems material. All RVs have MSW and run all those things in them without problems. |
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:16:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're treating MSW as if they are square wave. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_56_12_png-1435196.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_56_58_png-1435197.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_57_32_png-1435198.JPG This is from RV systems material. All RVs have MSW and run all those things in them without problems. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: MSW inverters power computers safely. What more do you want? I wouldn't think twice about running a light bulb or even some cheap electronics continuously from one. Anything else though, other than short term, intermittant use, no thanks. You're treating MSW as if they are square wave. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_56_12_png-1435196.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_56_58_png-1435197.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_18_57_32_png-1435198.JPG This is from RV systems material. All RVs have MSW and run all those things in them without problems. That's fine and dandy, but, especially for motors, transformers and inductors, they still flail in comparison. Pretend you are riding a stationary bicycle. You could put a pen on one of the pedals and a moving paper graph underneath. Under ideal conditions, you would draw a perfect sine wave on the graph. Imagine the inefficency of having to pedal hard, relaxing and then pedaling real hard and then relaxing and so on and so forth throughout the stroke. It's not very efficient, to say the least. Yes you will hve some momentum to help, but there will be a certain amount of losses by going the choppy route, vs the smoothe. I'm not saying it won't work, it very much will, but much less than ideal....... 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:22:08 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:34:59 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Battery cable sizing for OP: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/300350/Screen_Shot_2020-05-27_at_19_20_03_png-1435218.JPG +1! 
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Posted: 5/27/2020 7:47:05 PM EDT
[#27]
Just use a cheap generator. Probably be cheaper.
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Posted: 5/27/2020 8:31:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just use a cheap generator. Probably be cheaper. Probably |
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