Not a troll ( unless you feel asking a logical question is an attempt to annoy you ).

Bit of background for you - the reason I stopped believing in religion at 12yo ( and in a small town in West of Ireland at the time so "sticking my head above the parapet" does not even begin to cover the shit show I willingly let myself in for )........................

As a 12yo boy who spent most of his time reading and IMHO having a fair grasp of logic - I had a problem when I observed the evil that exists in the world. And the suffering of innocent people ( disease etc )

Because God created all those humans engaged in evil. And all those humans getting diseases.

I asked my relisious education teacher the following question.............

If God created us and had free reign in our design and specifications etc - why did he not hard wire us with the inability to harm another human. Why did he build in horrible diseases ?

I backed up that question with the example of a robot manufacturer deliberately choosing to create a product with the ability to do harm to his other robots when he has the ability to manufacture one hard wired to rule it out.

Or a car manufacturer deliberately making an exquisite car. The very epitome of luxury and reliability. But deliberately taking 1 in every 100 on the production line and building in a flaw that makes it a write off in its first year of use - why would a manufacturer do that ???

Free will I hear some say ? He gave us free will and WE have messed it up.

Well ok then - my logic still applies.

God thought free will might be a good idea. But that has turned out to be a terrible idea ! So, surely God would withdraw that free will ? If he can create us - he can fix flaws too ?

This has kept me away from the Church for 40 years. I still try to be the best human I can be - I do not fcuk with others where its not needed. My values are decent for the most part.

I read of a USGI who was dealing with rescuing the inmates from a WW2 death camp. On the side of one of the bunks he found the following ( or similar ) scratched into the wood ( by the dead occupant ).........

"IF, there is a God - when I finally meet him, he will have to get on his knees and beg my forgiveness"

It says it all for me.................

I just need to die with a sword in my hand.  Figuratively.

So you would rather have God force you to follow him rather than allow you to choose?

He lets us choose between heaven or hell.

And He even sent his Son to be slaughtered so His blood pays the price of our admission to heaven

Sounds pretty fair to me.

I hear that you're struggling. You wouldnt be posting this if you werent. My prayer for you is that you keep seeking.

In I guess.

 I've had a miracle happen in my life, even though at one time I had turned
 my back on God.

  nothing I say will change your mind, but I do want to tell you and everybody else
  that my Faith in God will never be shaken.

Do you want to raise your children to be spoiled brats that take everything for granted, or do you want to teach them how to be proud of earning what they have and to appreciate the good things in their lives?

Seek and you shall find.  At this point you are in the "look at me how logical and superior I am in my thinking" stage.
Hang in there.

So, you would come face to face with the creator of all things and you think it would be him/her it that would be begging for forgiveness I think you would literally shit your pants in the company of God, especially one who is not real good with asking for forgiveness from...well you.

The mental gymnastics required to excuse and justify that by a believer could not be considered logical anywhere in the known universe or any hypothetical dimention of space and time.

I do not have children.

As stated - despite my lack of faith - I try my best to be a good and decent person.

If I had children, I would instil this in them too.

God did not intend for Man to have disease and death. When Man disobeyed God and did not seek forgiveness from Him very early on in the Bible, this was the Fall of Man. Now we are burdened with the natural things of human nature.

I did not die in a death camp so I will not be seeking Gods forgiveness.

I will have a few questions though.

1) I recommend you read C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain."  

2) A re-read of Paradise Lost may be in order for you?  We weren't created "sinful", we (through our ancestors) were born with a sinful nature because our ancestors (and thus "we") chose to be that way.  We were created with free will because if we weren't, we would have been as pre-programmed robots.  If we were created to worship God (which is our ultimate purpose), then such worship is only "worth anything" if we choose to do it.  If you pre-program a robot to say nice things to you, it doesn't mean anything.  

Stop the martyr approach. You be you. Not judging you. Not criticising any of those who do have faith.

So essentially this generation is being punished for the actions of men thousands of years ago ?

It's a valid question but I think it is not well thought out.
If you were seeking a wife, would you prefer one who could choose to love you and grow to understand you better over time so you could have a deep, meaningful connection forged through difficult times as well as good?
Or would you like a blow up doll, an idiot bimbo or the like?
The same applies to children. Human relationships are real and complex which imparts much of the value they contain. The heart does not yearn for a robot. If we are made in the image of God this applies to Him as well.

Jesus says “in this world you will have trouble”

And in Revelation John is told ““And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.””
??
Where anyone got the impression everything would be all peachy and easy here I’m not sure.

I appreciate the input but it does not assist me.

I read that as God having a temper tantrum because his creations did not act the way he hoped they would.

Before he created us, who was giving him this worship he needed ?

This post seems a little condescending and hypocritical to me. Perhaps it's due to your superior logic.

I agree with the CS Lewis recomendation. He was brilliant. Other books on this topic:

OP, I share in your skepticism.  I do not believe a merciful and all powerful creator would be so indifferent to the suffering of his children as allow the use the phrase “free reign” in the same language as his word is made available to the English speaking world.

Apples and oranges.

As a human you CHOOSE a partner.

As a God you CREATE ( design and have total control of the spec ) humans.

Got things figured out at 12 years of age, well done.  Now how about that chicken or egg thing?

This!

But that is not the end.  The whole point of Christianity is that God has made a way for Adam and Eve's children to be redeemed from sin.  Not Adam and Eve, they were perfect and made their choice.  Be we, their progeny, had no opportunity to choose our fate, we were conceived in sin.

What Jesus called the "Good News" is that God has set a time limit, will act to end evil, will act on Christ's sacrifice to redeem and will put an end to the wickedness and restore perfection.  If you find that intolerable at that time, you will be free to use your free will to make the same decision as Adam and Eve, and go off into oblivion.  If you by chance like living under perfection, and willingly want to follows God's laws, then you will have the opportunity to do so forever.  Its all explained in the Bible.

No punishment if you accept your sinfulness and pray for forgiveness, and believe in Jesus the Savior.

Also ponder this:

When you say there is evil, aren’t you admitting there is good? When you accept the existence of goodness, you must affirm a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But when you admit to a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver.

Who might that be?

The multitude of angels.

wrong thread

What makes you think His creation wasn't acting the way he knew they would?

My point is God chose to create his children to be with and love as one might do with a child or spouse or family or whatever.
So...what is love and companionship and so forth?
It is not robotic. It is real and complex with ups and downs.

Very far from figured out.

At 12yo I got curious. I asked questions.

My teachers replies were pretty much " You just have to believe" which did not work for me. I struggle with blind faith.

So - pretty much the opposite of figured out really ?

The chicken and egg ? One enigma at a time please

Not my point and I don't give 2 shits what you believe. I don't believe in any 1 religion being correct but what I did have happen to me with a NDE, which I posted here, leads me to believe 100% you will not be a tough guy questioning God. IF what I got to see is not some bullshit my brain conjured up, God will not be asking you for forgiveness and things become much more clear why life on earth is the way it is.

Face to face with the maker of all things and you think you're going all tough guy act because, well you're not seeking forgiveness is fucking laughable.
I hope I get to witness this questioning of God when your moment comes. Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish in this thread. I'll leave it be, but man you are in for 1 rude of awakening...lot's of bible thumpers are in for one also so dont think I'm picking on the non-believer or whatever you claim to be.

Sin entered the world through the rebellion of Adam and Eve. That is where death and suffering entered. God created man and declared them very good. God is also sovereign and knew what would happen in the garden from the beginning. He already knew his rescue plan and that He would send His son as a substitution for the punishment we deserve for our sin nature from the fall of Adam. Once Jesus returns for His 1000 year reign death and suffering will once again be no more for he will have conquered it.
You can try to be a good person but to God’s standard of good there is not one who is good. This is why we need Jesus and His Atonement. God Is not the author of suffering but He allows it and it can sanctify us and glorify God if we allow it.
I would suggest reading the books of Job and Habakkuk.

You make a thought provoking point !

Pending said thought, my initial response is that I am only aware of good and evil because I am capable of both based on my observations of the world around me.

I am a member of the old fashioned missionary baptist church I grew up in. We believe in a feeling way that you become lost after hearing the gospel and then you seek redemption by praying to God and he will let you know when you are saved. I have very few answers and a lot of questions but I know the one who does. You have to have faith and God has to be the one to grant you that faith. My pride and stubborn nature kept me from the blessings of God for many years. If you are looking for hard facts you can physically see and touch then you're going to have a hard life. I don't know why people get sick or evil is allowed to exist. I think the reason for life is so we can choose or turn our back on God. I don't think we are supposed to know things that aren't revealed to us. I think we are supposed to submit to Gods will and have faith but we are human and will struggle with this.

If you have to have hard definite answers then you aren't going to find a real church to give you that. Good luck and God bless

Brings me back to my original point.

Why create something with a built in defect ?

2 swords are better, one sword is speaking the truth

Sounds more than fair, it sounds merciful.

If God allows us free will, by default he has to allow us to choose to follow him, or to elevate ourselves.  In elevating themselves over God, people chose a path other than the one God had laid out for humanity, which was similar to what OP is thinking.  This led to disease, war, famine, and the fallen nature we see today.

Even though God knew we would choose to not follow him, he allowed us a path back by sacrificing His son in our stead, to pay for our misdeeds.  And yet he still lets us choose, rather than makes us automatons.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
? Epicurus

My thoughts:
If God is omniscient, he doesn't need our prayers as he knew everything we would want or need before we were conceived.

If someone says Got wants/needs/benefits from our praise, that indicates he is vain, therefore not perfect.

If God is truly omniscient, there really isn't any need to pray or praise him because he already knows what we may want or need, and he doesn't need our praise or worship because in his perfection he isn't vain.  So why waste his time?  (I understand the belief that God is eternal so he has plenty of time)

I can accept that prayer is for the person praying, sort of like personal meditation.   I just don't see why God would either need, or want our prayers because if you accept God's omniscience, he already knows what you think and want now, and until the moment of your death.

I don't seek anyone's response to the above, it is merely posted as food for thought.

There are two major problems with your argument. #1 you assume that lack of problems is somehow desirable and #2 you assume you know the purpose of life.

In my years, I have found that what makes something good is the fact it's the opposite of bad. A vacation is great because it's not that job you may hate. Health is appreciated because it's possible to be unhealthy and have disease. The satisfaction of accomplishment is only possible because you failed many times. How you treat others can in many times correlate with how others treat you. Without bad things happening, the good has little meaning. And so I have grown by embracing the bad and learning from it. It's a positive force, whereas someone who may be lazy views it as a negative. It's all perspective.

And to my second point, who's to say the purpose of life and why we were even created? Why would one assume it's about us at all? Even if we are pawns in some evil scheme, that doesn't detract from the existence of a god. You may be able to say that such a god is not your friend, but that god could still exist.

To conclude, what you feel about a particular situation speaks nothing to the existence of a creator. And what you perceive as problematic may be viewed as something positive or beneficial to someone else. It's all perspective, and Christians are trying to gain that perspective so they aren't viewing things in a negative light but instead are aligning themselves with the larger purpose.

I think you cannot believe is ultimate good without ultimate evil. To think that only god exists and not the Devil seems far fetched.

I believe in intelligent design. You cannot look at this message and believe that your phone, it’s circuitry, this message fell into place at random. Yet the coding to make yourself would stretch to the moon and back as is far more complex of a design then the phone you’re holding. Yet everyone knows the phone was made by intelligent design, not just random sequences of events.

I do not regard asking questions as "being a tough guy".

Not sure where you are getting that.

Blind faith in Christ is both extremely simple, and yet the hardest thing ever.  It is indeed a struggle, one which everyone fails time and time again.

Allowing for someone to choose not to follow a pretty simple set of rules, it follows that that person must also suffer the consequences, and sometimes those consequences affect people far removed from the person making those choices.  Even though the rules are simple, nobody can do it.  That's why He sent Christ to pay the price in our place, to allow us a way back to him.  (As opposed to the vengeful, angry God of the Old Testament).

^^^This post says it all.

So, upon his return, for the 1000 year reign, he will rectify the free will flaw that allowed "death and suffering".

If that was his plan - why wait ?

Why not do it when FIRST creating us ?

Why knowingly create us flawed, know that wecwill fuck up and come back later to fix it ???

I don't know the answer, but I imagine that having a planet full of creatures without the ability to choose Him let Him know how that would turn out.

The love of a child is more meaningful than the love of a dog, for example.

So...you think the actions of many humans here on earth today don't still qualify as the same or worse than those actions thousands of years ago?  There is good and evil.  There is a Satan.  And while God could have planted all of us into re-education camps to get our minds right, He is not that kind of God.  Frankly that is what I find so refreshing and true about a faith in God and Christ.  It's our call, and while there may be ultimate consequences for our choices, we are not forced into a false faith or belief.  

On top of that, the teachings and directions of God and Christ would provide a healthy and wholesome life for all if followed just as a secular plan.  Obviously that won't happen with the free will to follow either good or evil.  And speaking of evil, I find it humorous to see how many who don't believe in God...or a god...can believe and grasp the concept of a Satan.

OP, you don't really want a God who will perform a lobotomy on you so that you have no concept of decision making, or love, or allegiance.  And the other poster's reference to the "blowup doll" scenario was rather insightful.

saving ones spiritual soul and ones physical body are 2 separate issues

a good persons soul may be saved but he may physically die in the same  storm as a non believer.

when man was cast out of the garden it would be a world filled with cancer/disease/human exploitation yet most men will still reach for poisoned fruit, they just have to watch marvel movies for some reason even though they know in their heart it contains poison.

when those who finally sit at their saviors table it will be because they chose to go to their fathers house for dinner not because of  a calendar holiday or guilt trip from ones mother or because how it appears to others- it will be because they want to be there.