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Posted: 1/18/2023 12:18:59 AM EDT
Ordered this IPA kit, but will buy yeast locally.

MoreBeer Zythos  IPA

(Description copied below).  But which yeast?  

I am interested in the newer “Norwegian Farm Yeast” - Kviek - because it’s supposed to work well for higher ABV (at least I think 7% + is kinda high), and will ferment at all temperatures.  Here is one Kviek yeast:  Omega Lutra

But will it work here?  

This is the description from the MoreBeer website:  (I will do an all-grain , brew in a mesh bag).



IPA lovers rejoice. This exclusive Brewmasters Series kit was designed by Will Harrison, former Brewmaster for Hopunion's (now YCH) test brewery. Will also led the team that designed the unique Zythos hop blend for Hopunion. This is a MoreBeer! first in that the hops in the Brewmaster kit were actually designed by the Brewmaster. Wow.

The kit features the unique flavor of this new Zythos hop blend as it is only hop in the kit from start to finish. This recipe represents how Will brews his test batches at the Hopunion test brewery (small plug... brewery built by MoreBeer!) Will designs his beers in such a way to let the hops shine. That means base malt, a touch of Munich malt, just a bit of Crystal 40 malt and lots of hops, strategically inserted through out the boil as well as into the fermenter or keg for dry hopping.

Since this beer is all about showcasing this hop we caught up with Will and asked him for his description of the Zythos hop "I get lots of citrus and tropical fruit notes. The hop was blended to get a little of everything in one pellet. We went for citrus, tropical, pine, and spicy as the main flavors in that order. It also has some experimental varieties to make it more complex and interesting." Learn a little more about the Zythos Hop. Zythos Hops

Will Harrison studied at the OSU Food & Science Technology department with an emphasis in brewing. He became assistant and later head Brewmaster at the Wild Duck brewery. He then moved on to Hopunion where he has performed a variety of jobs including setting up their Hop Lab and helping start Alpha Analytics, a lab for breweries. He also designed and installed their test brewery (made by MoreBeer!) and was also involved in hop sales to Breweries. The test brewery was set up so that Hopunion employees and potential customers could actually taste hops in action. The brewery is also used to sort out and select hops from the experimental hop breeding programs that Hopunion is part of.

Makes 5 gallons
Estimated Original Gravity:1.072-10.75
SRM (Color Range): 8-12
IBUs: 65-70
Estimated Alcohol Percentage: 7.2-7.8%
Link Posted: 1/18/2023 2:23:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Overall it looks like a pretty straightforward IPA recipe.

Kveik: will it "work"?  Yes, it will make beer.  Will it be the best; it may depend.

Do you have temperature control?

My only personal experience with it is one batch using the dry Voss.  In fact it was the most recent batch I did and it is in my kegerator now.  I ran it at 100F because I wanted to try it, and I read that it throws orange flavors at very high temp.  I had it in a SMASH with Golden Promise and Azacca, so I figured some added orange notes would work nicely.
However, I made a big mistake.  I ran it in a regular bucket type fermenter, and after 5 days I cut the heat to let it start freefalling closer to room temperature.  Still in the insulated chest freezer that is my ferm chamber.  I figured the continuing slow off-gassing would be enough to maintain equal pressure in the headspace as it cooled.  WRONG.  It pulled in air over several days.  Unfortunately I didn't notice until long after it was too late.

So yep... it was oxidized from the start and isn't getting better of course.  Out of 80some total batches I've done, this is likely going to be my second dumper.

Now me letting air in is of course not the yeast's fault, but, there is also a weird, not-good aftertaste that is something separate from the oxidation.  I wouldn't call it "orange".  Also it finished pretty high at 1.015.  I read it is very nutrient hungry, and I also forgot to add the nutrient since I don't usually use separate nutrient adders.  Oops.
Link Posted: 1/18/2023 2:24:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Despite what I've read online about it, I then talked to a couple local guys I know who are great brewers, one of them professional, and they have used Kveik quite a bit.  Feedback from both of them is that at really higher temperature, it throws weird flavors that neither of them like.  Running at regular ale temps it is clean, but then it isn't faster, and becomes pointless since it is also more expensive, than say US05, etc.  So, what I would do personally in your situation, based on all of this:

If this kit recipe is something you have done before with yeast you know, and you want to sub in Kveik to see what it does, go for it.
If you really don't have a way to keep it cool at all, and it is going to get into the upper 70's or 80's, I might be inclined to use it based on what I've read (though I have not personally used it in this temp range yet)
If you are not familiar with this recipe in general and have a way to keep it below 70, I would use a normal ale yeast I'm very familiar with (US05 or similar as they recommend, in my case)

TLDR:  Kveik seems like a possible way to go if you don't have good temp control, but if you do, there are likely better options.

That said, I have ordered another pack of Voss and am planning to use it in a pale ale recipe I've made lots of times.  I'm going to run it around 90F, and I'm going to run it in a pressure fermenter (not under pressure during active fermentation) so can pressurize it with Co2 at the end and not pull in air.  If it is clean at that temp, I might keep it in mind for future batches that I really want to turn quickly.  Chances are I'll stick with US05 in my pale ales and IPAs most of the time since I just know it well at this point.  I've used US05 dry packs up to 10% ABV with absolutely no issues or hassle, so I know it will work just fine below 8% and will finish right where it should and be nice and clean at 68F.
Link Posted: 1/18/2023 8:36:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks DVCNick!  

This is great and comprehensive advice.

I do not have temp control, and my basement stays around 70 to 74 degrees consistently.

This will be one of the highest ABV beers of the dozen or so I have brewed.  I usually just use US-05.

I have not used a yeast nutrient before (thanks for the tip!)

But I have done starters (if I use the dry Voss Kviek, should I do a starter in the flask the day before?).

I oxygenate with pure O2 using a specialty wand just prior to pitching the yeast.

Thanks again for the great advice!  
Link Posted: 1/18/2023 10:00:16 PM EDT
[#4]
No problem sir.

If your ambient temp is 70-74, your fermentation temp will of course likely be in the upper 70's, and for my taste, that is too hot for US05.  I'd probably give the Kveik a go there and just not artificially heat it at all, and just see how it comes out.  It may heat up a lot.  My Kveik batch at a controlled 100F was absolutely churning like I've never seen and was basically done in under 3 days.  It was holding the 100 and then some (in an insulated chamber) all on its own once it was there.

Before I had a proper temp control, I used the swamp cooler method (sorry if you are already aware of this); basically a big cooler or tub with water in the bottom, put the fermenter in there and cover it with a tshirt.  The water will wick up the shirt, evaporate, and take heat with it.  It can be surprisingly effective at lowering the internal temp even in warm environments. Can also add frozen bottles to the water periodically if even more reduction is desired.

7.x% is a good hearty beer of course, but most beer yeast I'm familiar with will be alcohol tolerant above that; certainly US05 or Kveik, and many others.
Link Posted: 1/18/2023 10:00:52 PM EDT
[#5]
The following is just my opinion, not shared by everyone, but shared by many for sure, and is backed up by quite a few batches in my experience:

Dry yeast:  I don't bother with a starter, special oxygenation (beyond splashing on the way into the fermenter), or rehydrating.  I just cut the packet open and dump it in the wort at the right temp.  I find that everything it needs is there with the yeast in the packet.  For higher gravity beers above 8%, I would pitch two packets.  Super easy.

Liquid yeast:  ALWAYS make a starter, and oxygenation with an 02 bottle and stone is a great idea for all beers, and absolutely mandatory for bigger beers.  For a big beer with liquid yeast, with some recipes I've had to do a 2L starter and pure O2 for 5 minutes to get them to attenuate where I want them.  I don't consider 7.x% to be a "big" beer, but I'd do at least a liter starter and definitely would oxygenate well.  Pitching rate calculators are your friend here.
Good luck!
Link Posted: 1/30/2023 6:49:23 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The following is just my opinion, not shared by everyone, but shared by many for sure, and is backed up by quite a few batches in my experience:

Dry yeast:  I don't bother with a starter, special oxygenation (beyond splashing on the way into the fermenter), or rehydrating.  I just cut the packet open and dump it in the wort at the right temp.  I find that everything it needs is there with the yeast in the packet.  For higher gravity beers above 8%, I would pitch two packets.  Super easy.

Liquid yeast:  ALWAYS make a starter, and oxygenation with an 02 bottle and stone is a great idea for all beers, and absolutely mandatory for bigger beers.  For a big beer with liquid yeast, with some recipes I've had to do a 2L starter and pure O2 for 5 minutes to get them to attenuate where I want them.  I don't consider 7.x% to be a "big" beer, but I'd do at least a liter starter and definitely would oxygenate well.  Pitching rate calculators are your friend here.
Good luck!
View Quote



Thanks again!  

While I did not personally brew this past weekend, I did go to a Christian Beer retreat with other Christian men interested in brewing!  Check this out:

https://www.carolinefurnace.org/beerreformation

As a group, we did brew one guy’s “Moose Slober” extract kit, but also:

- enjoyed a really HUGE all-grain brew (14% !).  The experienced homebrewer used 25 lbs of grain; it filled his mash-tun cooler right to the top. His first sparge was the high ABV.  He did a second sparge and still managed a 5% beer off the same grain bed.

The two beers were very different in taste.  Both delicious.

Anywho, we talked at length and he’s done a deep-dive on our local water chemistry.  Turns out it’s perfect right out of the tap, and has the right nutrients for yeast.

He also echoed your advice:  no starter for dry yeast (but do it for liquid).  

I’m going with a dry starter Kviek yeast from the local brew store.

Would you pitch 1 pack or 2 for 5 gallons of this beer?
Link Posted: 1/31/2023 9:36:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Looks like fun.
My mashtun is also a 10gal cooler, and I've had that thing STUFFED to the absolute brim a couple times as well... good times!
Never done two beers off separate sparges of one mash though.

Water chemistry can be a huge topic, and I'm FAR from an expert on that (the real experts are very few and far between).  If you get into it though, you will find that different beer styles call for different levels of various compounds that do different things in terms of flavor, mouthfeel, etc and interact with stuff during the mash.  I'm fortunate to have very soft water coming out of my tap (minimal amounts of all the stuff in it) so I can basically just treat it for chlorine with potassium metabisulfite and then build it up from there to the ideal profile with various brewing salts as needed.  This is one advantage of all-grain; you have control over the water chemistry.  With extract, the "mash" parameters are basically locked in at the time the extract is manufactured.
Link Posted: 1/31/2023 9:36:48 AM EDT
[#8]
I really don't have enough experience with Kveik to comment on the pitching rate, but for a 7.x beer, assuming everything else is good, I would tend to think one packet would likely be sufficient, but two wouldn't hurt. (I'm sure that helps a bunch :))

An update on my Kveik batch:  A lot of that bad aroma and aftertaste I mentioned has tapered off, but it still tastes "hot" and with minimal hop character.  I'm assuming the later is due to oxidation, and the former, I believe is "fusel alcohols", something I've heard described many times but this is the first time I believe I've encountered it.  I believe this is an artifact of fermenting at 100f.  I will not be doing that again in any case.

So again just based off ONE batch so far (second coming sometime soon) I would say oxygenate, starter if its liquid, 1-2 packs if dry, use yeast nutrient with this yeast, and keep it below 100 for sure.  I'll probably do 85 or 90f for the next Kveik batch, and since I have good temp control, that may be the end of that yeast for me at this time, but we'll see.
Link Posted: 2/19/2023 9:17:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I really don't have enough experience with Kveik to comment on the pitching rate, but for a 7.x beer, assuming everything else is good, I would tend to think one packet would likely be sufficient, but two wouldn't hurt. (I'm sure that helps a bunch :))

An update on my Kveik batch:  A lot of that bad aroma and aftertaste I mentioned has tapered off, but it still tastes "hot" and with minimal hop character.  I'm assuming the later is due to oxidation, and the former, I believe is "fusel alcohols", something I've heard described many times but this is the first time I believe I've encountered it.  I believe this is an artifact of fermenting at 100f.  I will not be doing that again in any case.

So again just based off ONE batch so far (second coming sometime soon) I would say oxygenate, starter if its liquid, 1-2 packs if dry, use yeast nutrient with this yeast, and keep it below 100 for sure.  I'll probably do 85 or 90f for the next Kveik batch, and since I have good temp control, that may be the end of that yeast for me at this time, but we'll see.
View Quote



UPDATE:

Brewed this all-grain kit Friday night, in the COLD air; it took forever to get to the hot-break outside.

Used a really old (but new to me) Wort chiller I bought from old friends.  They obviously brewed 10 gallons at a time, because the chiller sat 1/2 into the wort. Cooled down quick though.

Pitched 1 pack of Voss Kviek dry yeast (hydrated for 15 min), and

IT WENT OFF LIKE A BOMB!  Pitched at 10:30 PM Friday and airlock was bubbling away by 8AM.

It’s starting to taper off now on Sunday night.  It is fast!  Will rack this one to secondary and dry-hop later this week.

Thanks DVC Nick for all the input.
Link Posted: 2/20/2023 2:24:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Good deal... let us know how it comes out.

I've never seen a yeast take off like this either.  I pitched the dry pack (not rehydrated) in the evening, and 12 hours later, it was churning like a hot tub.
Link Posted: 5/30/2023 2:44:35 PM EDT
[#11]
I just tried Kveik Voss for the first time.  Pitched it dry at 4:30 on Saturday afternoon in 80 degree wort.  Airlock activity 30 minutes later.  By the time that I went to bed, the airlock was happily bubbling away.  Slowed yesterday morning and was done by yesterday night.  I just left it at room temp in my house (76 F).  Seems like cheating. I dry hopped today and will keg it on Saturday.

Sierra Nevada clone, so I'm hoping for a neutral yeast flavor but won't be upset if a hint of orange comes out.

Also, I read that it is stupid easy to harvest the yeast.  I plan to just scoop some of the trub into a sanitized Mason jar after kegging and store in the fridge.  If the beer turns out good, I'll re-use the yeast on my next batch (within a few weeks).
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