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Posted: 10/8/2018 1:25:27 PM EDT
So met a guy today that had a weed possession charge (2 days jail time for ounce 3 years ago), wanted to buy a gun but said he was NICS denied. Apparently he "lied on the form" based on the answer to the question "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? (in bold) marijuana is an illegal drug even if legal in a state where you reside", when he answered "NO" but the weed charge popped up, thus lied and denied. So guy has a conviction for drug possession (and thus likely use) and was denied, ok I get that. Based off of the conviction being an indication that said person is a user/possessor of drugs even if they are sober and not carrying weed while filling out the form.

Question is how does a DUI work, it is unlawful to use alcohol (a depressant) while driving? going off of the assumption that a a person gets away with a behavior minimum of 50% of the time prior to being caught (heck MURDER in Chicago is like 12% clearance rate, DUI would be like single digits or lower), it could be argued that a person with a DUI is an unlawful user of a depressant(booze). How does NON felony DUI equal no prohibited person but non felony marijuana equal prohibited person?
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:34:56 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
How does NON felony DUI equal no prohibited person but non felony marijuana equal prohibited person?
View Quote
How? Well, because there is no gun purchase prohibition for non-felony alcohol offenses but there is a gun ownership prohibition for drug use. Sorry, that's the law. The FBI has a POLICY (not law) that a recent drug conviction is evidence of drug use and they deny on that basis. Personally, I think that's bullshit because the drug question is phrased PRESENT TENSE. A drug charge in the PAST does not establish PRESENT drug use, in my opinion, but alas they did not ask for my opinion. It is what it is.

But I actually wonder about a three-year old drug charge being the basis for a deny. It's been a few years since I attended an ATF 4473 workshop but I recall them saying something to the effect of a drug arrest in the past year would result in a deny as would X-number (I don't recall the number) drug busts in the past five years. Seems odd that a single three-year-old charge would trigger a deny.

Did your friend tell you how he knew the old drug bust was the reason for the deny? Did he actually appeal the outcome and that was what he was told? Or did the dealer offer that explanation? Typically, the FBI does not tell people (either FFL or customer) why a deny was issued unless the buyer goes through the appeals process.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:41:23 PM EDT
[#2]
He was convicted of an offense that denies him any legal right to firearms.

He lied about it.   Which also denies him any legal right to firearms.

He's lost twice.

Game over.  It's gone.

Tell him to get on with his life as a person who can not legally possess firearms as the law is written now.

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 3:31:25 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
He was convicted of an offense that denies him any legal right to firearms . . .
Tell him to get on with his life as a person who can not legally possess firearms as the law is written now.

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
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Quoted:
He was convicted of an offense that denies him any legal right to firearms . . .
Tell him to get on with his life as a person who can not legally possess firearms as the law is written now.

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
BY LAW, a misdemeanor drug conviction does not result in a firearms prohibition under federal law. However, the ATF has determined that a recent drug arrest/conviction is an indication that the buyer is lying on the drug use question. Legally, that's bullshit but until this practice is successfully challenged it is the way it is. That said, a misdemeanor drug conviction or arrest only results in a TEMPORARY prohibition. After a sufficient period of time without additional evidence of drug use, the applicant will start receiving a NICS check proceed status at some point.

Basically, it's their call . . .

Definitions for the Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving Firearms
An inference of current use may be
drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession
of a controlled
substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers
the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a
controlled substance within the past year, or multiple arrests for
such offenses within the past five years if the most recent arrest
occurred within the past year
.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 8:44:44 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
How does NON felony DUI equal no prohibited person but non felony marijuana equal prohibited person?
View Quote
Because Congress said lawful use of a uncontrolled substance is different from unlawful use of controlled substance.
Link Posted: 10/9/2018 9:52:12 AM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
BY LAW, a misdemeanor drug conviction does not result in a firearms prohibition under federal law. However, the ATF has determined that a recent drug arrest/conviction is an indication that the buyer is lying on the drug use question. Legally, that's bullshit but until this practice is successfully challenged it is the way it is. That said, a misdemeanor drug conviction or arrest only results in a TEMPORARY prohibition. After a sufficient period of time without additional evidence of drug use, the applicant will start receiving a NICS check proceed status at some point.

Basically, it's their call . . .

Definitions for the Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving Firearms
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
He was convicted of an offense that denies him any legal right to firearms . . .
Tell him to get on with his life as a person who can not legally possess firearms as the law is written now.

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
BY LAW, a misdemeanor drug conviction does not result in a firearms prohibition under federal law. However, the ATF has determined that a recent drug arrest/conviction is an indication that the buyer is lying on the drug use question. Legally, that's bullshit but until this practice is successfully challenged it is the way it is. That said, a misdemeanor drug conviction or arrest only results in a TEMPORARY prohibition. After a sufficient period of time without additional evidence of drug use, the applicant will start receiving a NICS check proceed status at some point.

Basically, it's their call . . .

Definitions for the Categories of Persons Prohibited From Receiving Firearms
An inference of current use may be
drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession
of a controlled
substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers
the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a
controlled substance within the past year, or multiple arrests for
such offenses within the past five years if the most recent arrest
occurred within the past year
.
Met guy in passing, so cant check facts, don't really give a danm if he can or cant own guns. I was really curious as to how the policy was enforced with zero legal backing, as well as the interesting multiple arrests for something equals convictions but i was under the understanding that an arrest is NOT a conviction, but the fact that an arrest CAN effect your legal standing(prohibited person or not) but as i understand arreests they don't require actual convictions, so multiple arrests by a badly trained cop(say cop though that your legit out of state ID from neighboring state was fake due to recent change of counterfeiting features) and arrested you for underage drinking at 20, then a second cop arrests you for same offense after you make bail and go to bar with buddies. that is 2 arrests in 2 days, prohibited person based on one shit department?
Link Posted: 10/9/2018 9:56:24 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
So met a guy today that had a weed possession charge (2 days jail time for ounce 3 years ago), wanted to buy a gun but said he was NICS denied. Apparently he "lied on the form" based on the answer to the question "Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? (in bold) marijuana is an illegal drug even if legal in a state where you reside", when he answered "NO" but the weed charge popped up, thus lied and denied. So guy has a conviction for drug possession (and thus likely use) and was denied, ok I get that. Based off of the conviction being an indication that said person is a user/possessor of drugs even if they are sober and not carrying weed while filling out the form.

Question is how does a DUI work, it is unlawful to use alcohol (a depressant) while driving? going off of the assumption that a a person gets away with a behavior minimum of 50% of the time prior to being caught (heck MURDER in Chicago is like 12% clearance rate, DUI would be like single digits or lower), it could be argued that a person with a DUI is an unlawful user of a depressant(booze). How does NON felony DUI equal no prohibited person but non felony marijuana equal prohibited person?
View Quote
because alcohol is not illegal
Link Posted: 10/9/2018 2:50:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Met guy in passing, so cant check facts, don't really give a danm if he can or cant own guns. I was really curious as to how the policy was enforced with zero legal backing, as well as the interesting multiple arrests for something equals convictions but i was under the understanding that an arrest is NOT a conviction, but the fact that an arrest CAN effect your legal standing(prohibited person or not) but as i understand arreests they don't require actual convictions, so multiple arrests by a badly trained cop(say cop though that your legit out of state ID from neighboring state was fake due to recent change of counterfeiting features) and arrested you for underage drinking at 20, then a second cop arrests you for same offense after you make bail and go to bar with buddies. that is 2 arrests in 2 days, prohibited person based on one shit department?
View Quote
The recent/multiple arrests thing only applies to illegal drugs, not alcohol. They don't deny you because you broke the law. They deny you because they're convinced you're lying when you say you don't use illegal drugs (i.e. pot, NOT alcohol).
Link Posted: 10/12/2018 2:54:31 PM EDT
[#8]
Any time something like this pops up, I just recommend filling out the forms and get a copy of your FBI file.  It costs $18.00 and takes about 3 months, you will have to also send a print card with the paperwork.  This will show what is actually on the records that go into the NICS system to deny or proceed as well as what might be causing your delays.

FBI Identity History Summary Requests

Once you have a copy of your "Rap Sheet" you can then start the process to have things corrected, expunged or sealed in the state that the conviction occurred.  It is a long process, it took a friend of mine over a year and a half to get his shit straightened out for a felony theft conviction he had in 1981 in the state of Oregon, but once it was cleared up, he has been able to purchase guns again.  Most states have a process for certain classifications of disqualifying crimes that can be expunged.

In this day and political climate many states are actually dropping misdemeanor drug charges and convictions off records, I know several municipalities in WA state have reviewed and removed most minor drug convictions.

It is worth the time to check on your status.
Link Posted: 10/15/2018 9:23:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
He was convicted of an offense that denies him any legal right to firearms.

He lied about it.   Which also denies him any legal right to firearms.

He's lost twice.

Game over.  It's gone.

Tell him to get on with his life as a person who can not legally possess firearms as the law is written now.

Do stupid shit, win stupid prizes.
View Quote
Dude hasn't lost at all. He can get his rights back. There are attorneys who specialize in firearms rights restoration in all 50 states.

Nobody should lose their rights over a Misd.

If it's serious enough to warrant loss of civil rights it's serious enough to make a Felony charge. And if that's not how you see things then stop calling them "rights" and start calling them "privileges".
Link Posted: 10/16/2018 12:49:14 AM EDT
[#10]
this
Link Posted: 10/17/2018 9:09:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
How does NON felony DUI equal no prohibited person but non felony marijuana equal prohibited person?
View Quote
Was the DUI for alcohol or weed?

The DUI charge covers just about any drug that can impair your driving.
Even prescriptions.
Link Posted: 10/17/2018 9:37:12 PM EDT
[#12]
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 7:30:41 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
View Quote
Really?

I'm not a cop but I was an FFL. I find it extremely hard to believe that a traffic cop can see that somebody was issued a deny. How do you know this?
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 8:40:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Really?

I'm not a cop but I was an FFL. I find it extremely hard to believe that a traffic cop can see that somebody was issued a deny. How do you know this?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
Really?

I'm not a cop but I was an FFL. I find it extremely hard to believe that a traffic cop can see that somebody was issued a deny. How do you know this?
Look into it, a friend in a local sheriff’s dept told me this. I would like to think you are right and I am wrong.
There is no FBI procedure for removal of a Denial, a Delay is not recorded on one’s record but a Denial is.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 12:59:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
View Quote
Bullshit.
A denial by FBI NICS isn't a crime and not reported to anyone but stored as a permanent record.
If the denial is from a state point of contact they can do with that as they wish.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 1:01:11 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Bullshit.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
Bullshit.
OK big boy, show me.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 1:02:26 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
OK big boy, show me.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
Bullshit.
OK big boy, show me.
You made the claim, back it up little boy.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 1:08:25 PM EDT
[#18]
(i) NICS denied transaction records obtained or created in the course of the operation of the system will be retained in the Audit Log for 10 years, after which time they will be transferred to an appropriate FBI-maintained electronic database.

And get this:
The NICS Section is currently processing Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 1:45:46 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
(i) NICS denied transaction records obtained or created in the course of the operation of the system will be retained in the Audit Log for 10 years, after which time they will be transferred to an appropriate FBI-maintained electronic database.

And get this:
The NICS Section is currently processing Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
(i) NICS denied transaction records obtained or created in the course of the operation of the system will be retained in the Audit Log for 10 years, after which time they will be transferred to an appropriate FBI-maintained electronic database.

And get this:
The NICS Section is currently processing Voluntary Appeal File (VAF) cases received in August 2015.
Left out a little bit dint ya?

CFR › Title 28 › Chapter I › Part 25 › Subpart A › Section 25.9
§ 25.9 Retention and destruction of records in the system.

(a) The NICS will retain NICS Index records that indicate that receipt of a firearm by the individuals to whom the records pertain would violate Federal or state law. The NICS will retain such records indefinitely, unless they are canceled by the originating agency. In cases where a firearms disability is not permanent, e.g., a disqualifying restraining order, the NICS will automatically purge the pertinent record when it is no longer disqualifying. Unless otherwise removed, records contained in the NCIC and III files that are accessed during a background check will remain in those files in accordance with established policy.

(b) The FBI will maintain an automated NICS Audit Log of all incoming and outgoing transactions that pass through the system.

(1)Contents. The NICS Audit Log will record the following information: Type of transaction (inquiry or response), line number, time, date of inquiry, header, message key, ORI or FFL identifier, and inquiry/response data (including the name and other identifying information about the prospective transferee and the NTN).

(i) NICS denied transaction records obtained or created in the course of the operation of the system will be retained in the Audit Log for 10 years, after which time they will be transferred to an appropriate FBI-maintained electronic database.

(ii) NICS Audit Log records relating to transactions in an open status, except the NTN and date, will be destroyed after not more than 90 days from the date of inquiry; and

(iii) In cases of NICS Audit Log records relating to allowed transactions, all identifying information submitted by or on behalf of the transferee will be destroyed within 24 hours after the FFL receives communication of the determination that the transfer may proceed. All other information, except the NTN and date, will be destroyed after not more than 90 days from the date of inquiry.

(2)Use of information in the NICS Audit Log. The NICS Audit Log will be used to analyze system performance, assist users in resolving operational problems, support the appeals process, or support audits of the use and performance of the system. Searches may be conducted on the Audit Log by time frame, i.e., by day or month, or by a particular state or agency. Information in the NICS Audit Log pertaining to allowed transactions may be accessed directly only by the FBI and only for the purpose of conducting audits of the use and performance of the NICS, except that:

(i) Information in the NICS Audit Log, including information not yet destroyed under § 5.9(b)(1)(iii), that indicates, either on its face or in conjunction with other information, a violation or potential violation of law or regulation, may be shared with appropriate authorities responsible for investigating, prosecuting, and/or enforcing such law or regulation; and

(ii) The NTNs and dates for allowed transactions may be shared with ATF in Individual FFL Audit Logs as specified in § 25.9(b)(4).

(3)Limitation on use. The NICS, including the NICS Audit Log, may not be used by any Department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States to establish any system for the registration of firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions or dispositions, except with respect to persons prohibited from receiving a firearm by 18 U.S.C. 922(g) or (n) or by state law. The NICS Audit Log will be monitored and reviewed on a regular basis to detect any possible misuse of NICS data.

(4)Creation and Use of Individual FFL Audit Logs. Upon written request from ATF containing the name and license number of the FFL and the proposed date of inspection of the named FFL by ATF, the FBI may extract information from the NICS Audit Log and create an Individual FFL Audit Log for transactions originating at the named FFL for a limited period of time. An Individual FFL Audit Log shall contain all information on denied transactions, and, with respect to all other transactions, only non-identifying information from the transaction. In no instance shall an Individual FFL Audit Log contain more than 60 days worth of allowed or open transaction records originating at the FFL. The FBI will provide POC states the means to provide to the FBI information that will allow the FBI to generate Individual FFL Audit Logs in connection with ATF inspections of FFLs in POC states. POC states that elect not to have the FBI generate Individual FFL Audit Logs for FFLs in their states must develop a means by which the POC will provide such Logs to ATF.

(c) The following records in the FBI-operated terminals of the NICS will be subject to the Brady Act's requirements for destruction:

(1) All inquiry and response messages (regardless of media) relating to a background check that results in an allowed transfer; and

(2) All information (regardless of media) contained in the NICS Audit Log relating to a background check that results in an allowed transfer.

(d) The following records of state and local law enforcement units serving as POCs will be subject to the Brady Act's requirements for destruction:

(1) All inquiry and response messages (regardless of media) relating to the initiation and result of a check of the NICS that allows a transfer that are not part of a record system created and maintained pursuant to independent state law regarding firearms transactions; and

(2) All other records relating to the person or the transfer created as a result of a NICS check that are not part of a record system created and maintained pursuant to independent state law regarding firearms transactions.

[Order No. 2186-98, 63 FR 58307, Oct. 30, 1998, as amended by Order No. 2354-2001, 66 FR 6474, Jan. 22, 2001; Order No. 2727-2004, 69 FR 43900, July 23, 2004; Order No. 3477-2014, 79 FR 69051, Nov. 20, 2014]
So where in there does it permit a traffic cop to view ALL denials?
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 1:52:46 PM EDT
[#20]
It does but I’m sitting in a doctors office on my phone so to continue I will need my laptop, again, I prefer you to be the correct one in this.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ncic

How NCIC is Used: Criminal justice agencies enter records into NCIC that are accessible to law enforcement agencies nationwide. For example, a law enforcement officer can search NCIC during a traffic stop to determine if the vehicle in question is stolen or if the driver is wanted by law enforcement. The system responds instantly. However, a positive response from NCIC is not probable cause for an officer to take action. NCIC policy requires the inquiring agency to make contact with the entering agency to verify the information is accurate and up-to-date. Once the record is confirmed, the inquiring agency may take action to arrest a fugitive, return a missing person, charge a subject with violation of a protection order, or recover stolen property.

Now I may be reading this incorrectly and if so I stand corrected.
Link Posted: 10/18/2018 7:02:37 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It does but I’m sitting in a doctors office on my phone so to continue I will need my laptop, again, I prefer you to be the correct one in this.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ncic

How NCIC is Used: Criminal justice agencies enter records into NCIC that are accessible to law enforcement agencies nationwide. For example, a law enforcement officer can search NCIC during a traffic stop to determine if the vehicle in question is stolen or if the driver is wanted by law enforcement. The system responds instantly. However, a positive response from NCIC is not probable cause for an officer to take action. NCIC policy requires the inquiring agency to make contact with the entering agency to verify the information is accurate and up-to-date. Once the record is confirmed, the inquiring agency may take action to arrest a fugitive, return a missing person, charge a subject with violation of a protection order, or recover stolen property.

Now I may be reading this incorrectly and if so I stand corrected.
View Quote
NCIC and NICS are two totally different information systems.  Because they are both run by the DoJ and they have similar acronyms they are often confused.
Link Posted: 10/19/2018 9:17:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
NCIC and NICS are two totally different information systems.  Because they are both run by the DoJ and they have similar acronyms they are often confused.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
It does but I’m sitting in a doctors office on my phone so to continue I will need my laptop, again, I prefer you to be the correct one in this.

https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/ncic

How NCIC is Used: Criminal justice agencies enter records into NCIC that are accessible to law enforcement agencies nationwide. For example, a law enforcement officer can search NCIC during a traffic stop to determine if the vehicle in question is stolen or if the driver is wanted by law enforcement. The system responds instantly. However, a positive response from NCIC is not probable cause for an officer to take action. NCIC policy requires the inquiring agency to make contact with the entering agency to verify the information is accurate and up-to-date. Once the record is confirmed, the inquiring agency may take action to arrest a fugitive, return a missing person, charge a subject with violation of a protection order, or recover stolen property.

Now I may be reading this incorrectly and if so I stand corrected.
NCIC and NICS are two totally different information systems.  Because they are both run by the DoJ and they have similar acronyms they are often confused.
Well thanks, that is what I did.
Link Posted: 10/21/2018 4:43:51 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The great thing about a NICS denial is that it can NEVER be removed regardless if it was wrong and any traffic cop can see it.
View Quote
I have never seen anything about a 4473 denial in NCIC on any traffic stop I've participated in.

Most I get is basic identifying information, a rap sheet, and whether the driver has warrants or not.
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