Ok that settles it, there's bad drivers in the North and the South.

The real question is, why do ya'll date your sisters?

Quoted: I believe that I've seen somewhere that ice itself isn't slippery, it's the heat from the tires that melt the ice, causing a thin film of water (which the vehicle floats on).  Supposedly, when it's REALLY cold, the ice is actually a pretty good surface to drive on. Any truth to that?

It gets better as it gets colder but not enough to help.  Try iceskating when the temp is in the 20's vs. ice skating when the temp is below 15.  Big difference in how well the skates glide but the fact is they still glide.  I've never skated or driven much below 0.  We'll have to get an Alaskan to give us the report on ice at -30.

I have found N. MI snow easier to drive on because it packs into a surface that has a lot of grip due to the lower temps not allowing the snow to melt much as it is compacted.  Here in S. MI the snow rarely packs like that.  Most of the time it is in slush form which creates a hydroplaning type situation.

Kent

Quoted: Quoted: I believe that I've seen somewhere that ice itself isn't slippery, it's the heat from the tires that melt the ice, causing a thin film of water (which the vehicle floats on).  Supposedly, when it's REALLY cold, the ice is actually a pretty good surface to drive on. Any truth to that? Ice is Ice dude.  It the the closeest thing to 0 friction you can get.

What is snow?  Powdered ice?  And even snow has a different "feel", depending on temperature, age, packing and water.

When water freezes, it expands.  Reversal of this process by application of pressure causes it to melt but only on the actual interface.  An ice skate has very high contact pressure from the almost zero area and thusly, it skims along on a film of water.  A tire, on the other hand, has a tread pattern but it also has microscopic bumps and valleys.  If the ice is at a rather high temperature, say 31 F, the tire/ice interface has the greatest film thickness of water and the least friction.  Get the ice and tirre down to -20 F and most grip is restored UNTIL you start slipping.  Tire rubber is much softer than ice and the friction heat builds in the rubber faster than the ice can dissipate it.  This heat causes the ice to melt, reducing the friction and making it nigh impossible to regain traction.  Its trick yo drive but not impossible.  The colder, the better.

Quoted: I believe that I've seen somewhere that ice itself isn't slippery, it's the heat from the tires that melt the ice, causing a thin film of water (which the vehicle floats on).  Supposedly, when it's REALLY cold, the ice is actually a pretty good surface to drive on. Any truth to that?

Yes that is true.

I can remember trying to play ice hockey outside when I was a kid and it was well below zero. Basically you couldn't play at all. The puck went nowhere and it felt like you were trying to skate on a concrete parking lot.

It is hilarious here in Lubbock, TX when it snows, nothing but 4wd SUV's in the ditch everywhere you go.

Blizzaks

I grew up in upstate NY and learned to drive in the snow out of necessity.  I took my DMV drivers test with 3" of snow on the roads..........snow does not obther me.


BUT, ice is a differnet story.  I dont care who you are, ...driving on ice is some dangerous shit.  I dont care if you have a friggin 6 wheel drive it wont help you.  I used to plow roads for a landscaping company when I was about 18.   One time we had to do a big apt. complex and the owners said "I had a guy salt it last night".  Well, the "guy" never did salt it and as soon as I hit the entrance at the top of the hill I started sliding down.........luckily I there was a nice brand new BMW parked on the side of the road to stop me.  I put the plow right through the trunk and into the drivers seat. When the state police came to do the report for the accident HE slid into the back of MY truck!!   It was an interesting day.      

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it. Wrong........ "Larger, heavier vehicles" have more mass, therefore they have more inertia when travelling at a given speed than a smaller, lighter one. The heavier vehicle will have a much harder time stopping, due to the need to overcome that inertia. Lighter ones can stop easier, BECAUSE they have less mass to bring to a halt. Simple physics..........

I am not talking about stopping, I am talking about DRIVING.  Nothing can stop on ice.  Not a honda, not a jeep, not even a snowmobile.

It goes without saying that ANY vehicle must take serious consideration into their stopping distance.  Where I live, there is very little stopping going on though.  The cars that end up in ditches are small Front wheel drive cars that get thrown all over the place by slushy ruts.  Believe me. I know, because I drive one.

My idiot neighbor whom we share a private lane with is always getting stuck on our hill.  I can't tell you how many times I have pushed their little hondas up the hill because their tires float across the snow providing zero bite.  I never have problems with my Stratus.  It is a heavier car though.  My other car never has ANY problems at all in the snow.  If I was driving across country in a blizzard, I would want to be in my Jeep Grand Cherokee.  No contest.  I have to fight rutty snowy roads too much in a smaller car.

Inertia is your friend when trying to maintain steady forward motion, and as long as you are smart about stopping, there won't be any problems.  I have never been off the road either except for the time I frogot to engage the 4WD on my old Cherokee.  I fishtailed on some frictionless ice, and wasn't able to recover the skid.  I slid into a cornfield, engaged the 4WD, and drove away.  After that I didn't slide at all.  Try that in a Taurus.

I am always shocked by the people driving on summer tires.  In the snow I prefer a small car with skinny tires to a big SUV, but that is how I learned.  

The video of the people jumping out of their cars is hilarious.

Driving in the snow and ice is easy!
STOPPING SUXS


Samuel

Its not just the snow and ice, I think its just people in general.

Thank god for Florida.

(except during hurricane season)

15 years driving in Michigan winters and only once was I in the ditch.  I hit black ice.  I was running about 60 and hit a large dip in the road and put the car sidways.  Went sideways  back and forth for about a half mile then put it in the ditch to avoid a car load of kids on there way to school.
No more damage than a busted turn signal.  
90% of the time its to much speed for the conditions.

The accident on I-69 in Lansing was caused buy lack of attention to the conditions. There  were three seperate accidents. One  east bound   85 cars. Two west bound one with 100 cars and one with about 75 cars.  Its a wonder more people wern't killed.

Edit they still don't know where all of the cars were towed to. I've been trying to find one since last night.(not mine)

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What I don't understand is why people who have an SUV or mini van think their vehicles are any better in the snow than a normal car?  You see the SUV or mini van (without 4WD) whipping past you, and they're the ones that wind up spinning out.  Bigger does not mean better, people. It just means bigger, and you have farther to fall. Actually you are dead wrong. Larger heavier vehicles are better than smaller lighter ones in the snow.  Stone cold fact. Granted there are folks that don't know how to drive in snow and think that an SUV is their savoir, and 4WD doesn't help you stop, unless you shift into reverse and stomp on it, but that will cause you to spin as well if you aren't ready for it. Wrong........ "Larger, heavier vehicles" have more mass, therefore they have more inertia when travelling at a given speed than a smaller, lighter one. The heavier vehicle will have a much harder time stopping, due to the need to overcome that inertia. Lighter ones can stop easier, BECAUSE they have less mass to bring to a halt. Simple physics..........

Sorry, that's wrong.  Not "simple physics", it's "wrong physics". Heavier cars also have more force pushing down on the tires so everything equals out.  If you don't believe me, check out the stopping distance required for different vehicles.  It's not uncommon to see larger SUVs outperforming smaller cars.  

What is more important is the width of the tires.  Skinnier tires dig down into the snow better and generally give better traction.  Wider tires tend to "float" on top.  When I lived in Montana I would usually have a 205 or 215 width summer tire and a 185 width studded snow tire on my car.  

Quoted: studded snow tire.

clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick


Thats the sound my 78' impala used to make wherever I went when I lived "up there"........somehow I miss it now.

And back to When I was in the Army….

Fort Hood, December 1978
While waiting for orders to clear so I could head for Jump School, the newspapers were filled with stories of a blizzard that hit the Northeast.  The pictures showed mile after mile of Interstates with cars stuck in very deep snow.

The 27th Engineer Battalion (I think) was sent to help did everybody out.  And while they were there you Southern Lads were razzing on us Northern Boys about the “Dispute of Fort Sumter” and …”Why do you need us Rebs to help you dig out of that snow?  If you could win that “Argument” you should have no trouble with a little bit of snow.  We though you could handle it.”  And things like that general demeanor.

And a few days after they came back a ¼ inch of snow hit Fort Hood.
The entire base shut down.

I’m talking here of a One Quarter of One Inch of total accumulation.  Or about the bore diameter of our favorite rifle caliber.

The base closed down and I saw trucks spreading sand on the roads.  All over a measly ¼ inch of snow fall.  Back home I might sweep that much snow away out the driveway with a broom.  Or I just might ignore it.

A ¼ of an inch of snow and a mighty US Army Base closes.

You Southern Lads got an earful back very quickly.

But we were nice....I think...