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Posted: 12/15/2018 3:55:38 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends. Am I still in CA?
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Posted: 12/15/2018 3:58:34 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Depends. Am I still in CA? Super interesting responses here, seeing reasoning ranging from legal to moral. I don't actually know my response yet, not sure I would until I was in that situation, but it really is very interesting to see the reasoning here. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 3:58:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Individual First Aid Kit The real question is why a normal person WOULDN'T have one. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:01:51 PM EDT
[#4]
Seems we need an additional follow up shot
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:05:17 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not a chance. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:06:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Yes, I'd use my tourniquet around the neck, gotta stop the bleeding!
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:07:30 PM EDT
[#7]
Many reasons not to.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:08:46 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually no. Even in an attack situation, Good Samaritan Laws are in effect. If you are operating within your scope of practice (the level to which you are trained) and you are not being compensated financially for rendering the aid (not on duty as a job for medical care at that moment,) you are protected from liability. In most states, GSLs are pretty iron-clad. No where in any GSL that I've ever read has an exclusion for it the first responder was the victim of the person being treated. I see zero benifit in this situation. Now if some shitbird shot into a public area, I’d help a wounded bystander, sure But the guy who was just trying to hurt me, who I just shot (which often further angers people) helllz to the nope I’ll fall back to shelter, make sure myself and my loved ones are ok, call 911. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:11:47 PM EDT
[#9]
What's an IFAK? I'm not up on all the uber tacticool lingo for stuff.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:11:50 PM EDT
[#10]
No, and I'm a professional EMT. I have no duty to act when off duty.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:12:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lots of people have a first aid kit at their home or at work; some have one in their vehicle; nobody I know carries one around on their person at all times. If you do, and tacti-cooly refer to it as your "IFAK" then no, that's not normal. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Individual First Aid Kit The real question is why a normal person WOULDN'T have one. You envision the scene being away from your home/vehicle/work. I envisioned it near on of those things since that is my most likely area to be. I'd expect a normal person to have one in one of those areas. But who I am I kidding? You are still correct. MOST people that I know have no kit in any location, and even more have no training beyond putting a band-aid on a scratch or getting a splinter out of a finger. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:13:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Wont fix my anchor shot
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:15:20 PM EDT
[#13]
He might have AIDS. I’ll stand over him with the gun pointed at his head until responders arrive. Not touching his bloody ass.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:16:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I’ll win the case, still not sure I’ll find solace in that after the dude tries to sue me, or now that I have aids or hep, or as I’m nursing the stab wound he inflicted onto me as I tried to help him. I see zero benifit in this situation. Now if some shitbird shot into a public area, I’d help a wounded bystander, sure But the guy who was just trying to hurt me, who I just shot (which often further angers people) helllz to the nope I’ll fall back to shelter, make sure myself and my loved ones are ok, call 911. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Actually no. Even in an attack situation, Good Samaritan Laws are in effect. If you are operating within your scope of practice (the level to which you are trained) and you are not being compensated financially for rendering the aid (not on duty as a job for medical care at that moment,) you are protected from liability. In most states, GSLs are pretty iron-clad. No where in any GSL that I've ever read has an exclusion for it the first responder was the victim of the person being treated. I see zero benifit in this situation. Now if some shitbird shot into a public area, I’d help a wounded bystander, sure But the guy who was just trying to hurt me, who I just shot (which often further angers people) helllz to the nope I’ll fall back to shelter, make sure myself and my loved ones are ok, call 911. However, the dude trying to sue you is a no-go under GSL. He may sue you for shooting him, but he cannot sue you for any consequences of treatment. Either way, I'm not touching him without PPE (personal protective equipment) and I am not leaving the person uncovered to get my EMT bag. I'm also not touching him unless I am 100% confident that he or any other person I haven't seen is not a threat. So, this is really just an academic discussion. The chances of me taking on those risks are extremely unlikely. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:17:59 PM EDT
[#15]
This reminds me of a time in Afghanistan when we captured an enemy PUC after a firefight and my Doc and I were ordered to try and keep this dude alive because the secret squirrels wanted to get intel out of him. We ended up bag breathing him for several hours.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:20:07 PM EDT
[#16]
Only if I wanted to interrogate them.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:24:33 PM EDT
[#17]
Not sure if I would risk exposure to blood and body fluids from anyone stupid enough to threaten my life enough I shot them.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:28:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
In before in before poll. You have an IFAK, and no one else is injured. Let's say it'd be your $40 chest seals, $40 of hemostatic gauze, $10 NPA and $35 TQ - you shot this guy real good, because of course GD are all masters - but he's not yet dead. MPNI (most post nailed it) in this thread |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:28:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hope your family remembers you kindly when the “dead” guy stabs you. If he isn’t in cuffs I’m not touching him. 
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:30:47 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How would you face the victims of his next armed robbery? I wouldn't touch him. Who knows what weird blood-borne diseases he has? 
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:30:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Actually no. Even in an attack situation, Good Samaritan Laws are in effect. If you are operating within your scope of practice (the level to which you are trained) and you are not being compensated financially for rendering the aid (not on duty as a job for medical care at that moment,) you are protected from liability. In most states, GSLs are pretty iron-clad. No where in any GSL that I've ever read has an exclusion for it the first responder was the victim of the person being treated. ET - and I'm with the "IFAKs are for me" side. Either to use myself if I can or for someone else to use on me. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:31:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The scenario is: He is 100% out of the fight with no chance of further attacks. My response was to that narrow situation. I never said I'd take a chance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Hope your family remembers you kindly when the “dead” guy stabs you. If he isn’t in cuffs I’m not touching him. As many have said here, there's a lot to consider. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:35:11 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Individual first aid kit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's an "IFAK"??? Why would a normal person have some/it/one??? |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:36:57 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm not a trained medical professional and don't want to get sued if I do something wrong so he'll have to wait for the EMTs.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:42:17 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With all this cuff talk, how many here keep some type of cuff (tuff ties for example) on their body when carrying or in their ifak? |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:43:45 PM EDT
[#26]
If the situation allows, I would render the basic aid of pressure on the wound. Until LEO or backup arrives, the scene is not secure and I will not be distracting myself with applying compression bandages, chest seals, ect...
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#27]
Nope. I’m not going get close enough to give him/her first aid.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:51:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
In before in before poll. Exact situation doesn't matter. You shot/stabbed/other someone trying to attack/rob you/someone else. He is 100% out of the fight, the area is clear, no other attackers (or if there are they dead), no worries of further attack, but he is not dead yet. You have an IFAK, and no one else is injured. Let's say it'd be your $40 chest seals, $40 of hemostatic gauze, $10 NPA and $35 TQ - you shot this guy real good, because of course GD are all masters - but he's not yet dead. LEO/EMS is en route, but you don't know if he'll survive until then or not. 50/50 crapshoot. Do you expend your IFAK on a felon that just attacked you or someone else, or do you wait and see what happens? |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:52:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, this is really just an academic discussion. The chances of me taking on those risks are extremely unlikely. Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, this is really just an academic discussion. The chances of me taking on those risks are extremely unlikely. Quoted:
It's not even about the cost of the items used. It's about having fucks to give for someone that tried to kill you and/or your loved ones, and while I always carry a few spare fucks, they're only for the worthy. I won't speak for the police but I'm thinking there's only one reason they do it. MPNI (most post nailed it) in this thread |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:56:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With all this cuff talk, how many here keep some type of cuff (tuff ties for example) on their body when carrying or in their ifak? And there is no way I am using them unless I can articulate that the person is actively a threat to me, himself, or others. The possibility of him being a threat is not enough to justify it. Restraining a person is a good way to be charged for battery and/or kidnapping. I know. It sounds nuts. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:56:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Unless it was my house I would have vacated the area until the cops arrive! I’m not going to be hanging around.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 4:59:17 PM EDT
[#32]
I’m moving away to a safe distance and waiting for the professionals to respond.
Nothing good would come from hoingbocer and rendering aid while lots of bad could definitely be the result. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:05:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
.... the criteria for me to determine that no other threat from him of anyone else would be extremely difficult to meet. ETA: No I wouldn't. I keep my EMT bag in my truck outside. I'm not leaving my family unattended to get it. I am not touching a person that just attacked and who is leaking fluids without my BSI. I'm not getting Herpebolaids from some thug. A) where the heck are we that I could 100% guarantee that there are no other potential threats, who might attack me while I'm preoccupied while rendering aid? In the middle of a completely flat desert, at high noon with clear visibility for at least 1/2 a mile in all directions? How do I know with absolute certainty, that the attacker, while wounded, is not just playing possum to avoid getting shot even more? That they might not have another weapon they might pull and use if I get close? B) at any given time, I always have small nicks, scratches and abrasions on my hands/arms. I'm generally not even aware of them, unless I use alcohol based hand sanitizer and feel the sting. I also do not have a mask and protective eyewear in my IFAKs. Not willing to risk whatever pathogens the attacker might be carrying, on top of the risk of being attacked while preoccupied with rendering aid. IFAK is for me, and/or family. Vehicle aid kit may voluntarily be used in case of a casualty event. I may voluntarily choose to face the risks in that case, but not for a perp who willingly endangered me and mine. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:06:15 PM EDT
[#34]
Well I wouldn't put anchor shots in them after they were already down if that's what you mean.
but if he was reaching for his weapon I would have to consider them still a threat right??
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:06:53 PM EDT
[#35]
If no other threats, yes, but only because tourniquets hurt.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:07:04 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nope. I’m not going get close enough to give him/her first aid. Cover the mutt, wait for the police, quickly place your gun on the ground when the police roll up. Hands up might be a good idea, too. I hope to never find out how accurate or fanciful this all is. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:07:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Go ahead and fix up the thug you had to shoot. When him and his homies come back to run a train on your wife before they kill both if you, that'll be their way of saying thanks.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:09:47 PM EDT
[#38]
I've never sworn the Hippocratic Oath.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:15:35 PM EDT
[#39]
Nope would not touch.
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:18:19 PM EDT
[#40]
The most effort I’d be inclined to offer would be to toss the dirtbag that I just ventilated a used splooge towel, and that’s ONLY if it’s not a quality towel. The vast majority of that effort would be to try and limit the damage to my hardwoods by said dirtbags blood and piss.
But then again, I’ve been accused of being...less than cordial to those that have targeted me or my loved ones. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:20:16 PM EDT
[#41]
nope...
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:20:31 PM EDT
[#42]
The attacker is bleeding out (of sorts) and not restrained so he could still put hands on me? Not gonna risk his adrenaline’d, bloody body parts getting ahold of me in any way...
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:22:10 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Individual First Aid Kit The real question is why a normal person WOULDN'T have one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What's an "IFAK"??? Why would a normal person have some/it/one??? The real question is why a normal person WOULDN'T have one. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:23:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
If he isn't in cuffs he's still a threat and I'm not going to fuck around restraining him before I render aid. ETA: No way I'm going to risk taking some scumbag's Andromeda Strain home to my wife. With all the funky shit out there these days, I'm not touching any stranger without PPE&P. (Personal protective equipment and a paycheck.) |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:29:19 PM EDT
[#45]
In the jungle, welcome to the jungle
Watch it bring you to your knnn knne knees, knees I want to watch you bleed |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:33:02 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have restraints in my EMT bag. And there is no way I am using them unless I can articulate that the person is actively a threat to me, himself, or others. The possibility of him being a threat is not enough to justify it. Restraining a person is a good way to be charged for battery and/or kidnapping. I know. It sounds nuts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With all this cuff talk, how many here keep some type of cuff (tuff ties for example) on their body when carrying or in their ifak? And there is no way I am using them unless I can articulate that the person is actively a threat to me, himself, or others. The possibility of him being a threat is not enough to justify it. Restraining a person is a good way to be charged for battery and/or kidnapping. I know. It sounds nuts. Quoted: Why? I have no duty to arrest, and I'm not endangering myself to try and restrain someone who just tried to harm me.. I'll cover him with my pistol until the police arrive... Edit- I ask because I am wondering if restraints are worth owning and carrying. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:36:17 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Absolutely I would. It might be the piece of evidence that keeps my ass out of jail. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:38:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pics &/or links to IFAK’s?... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What's an "IFAK"??? Why would a normal person have some/it/one??? The real question is why a normal person WOULDN'T have one. https://www.buyemp.com/category/first-aid-kits |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:42:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, I addressed Scene Safety and BSI in my first post. However, the dude trying to sue you is a no-go under GSL. He may sue you for shooting him, but he cannot sue you for any consequences of treatment. Either way, I'm not touching him without PPE (personal protective equipment) and I am not leaving the person uncovered to get my EMT bag. I'm also not touching him unless I am 100% confident that he or any other person I haven't seen is not a threat. So, this is really just an academic discussion. The chances of me taking on those risks are extremely unlikely. If he’s got enough juice to swing a blade or spit blood on me it’s not safe, and if he doesn’t have the juice to do those things... shy of this happening on a OR floor with surgeons standing by, well...he’s dead jim...his body just doesn’t fully know it yet. This whole topic reminds me of that hunter who tried to pose with a big buck he shot, that was exactly fully dead yet. |
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Posted: 12/15/2018 5:46:06 PM EDT
[#50]
I am not patching up a damn thing. I went to a TON of trouble to put those holes in his body, I'm not undoing all of that hard work.
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