Real case just last week here in Baton Rouge. A cop stops a driver from cutting into a funeral procession and proceeds to give him a ticket. Driver gets pissed, gets out and starts wailing on the cop. Turns out he is a big dude and ex-boxer, just a whippin the cop's ass. Cop pulls his service weapon, shoots the driver in the gut. Driver gets even more pissed and keeps wailing on him and now tryring to wrestle the cop's gun away. Cop's jaw is broken, etc., starts desperately yelling for help. A bystander watching it all -- in his 50s with a cane and a neck brace at that, no shit -- walks over to his car, pulls out a .45 and pops the driver in the back of the head from 8 yards away and then adds four more shots to the chest. Driver finally relents ... and dies.

Good Samaritan is not charged with anything but some media is now making him out to be some madman or racist because the driver was black and the shooter and cop are white. Most of the population in BR is siding with the shooter, but a lot of liberal weeners want the guy strung up for overkill. NAACP is protesting and calling for a major investigation.

As for me, I'm a former Vietnam combat Marine and would have gone to my car and gotten out my AR-15 and fired one from 500 meters prone (ha) into the driver's heel or knee to get his attention. If that didn't stop him, then I figure I would have had 29 more chances to stop him from trying to kill that cop.

I've told some bleeding hearts around here that until you are in the situation -- like the scenario in the convenience store -- you just don't really know what you are going to do. Too many variables to say for sure. Like the old joke, I guess the BR bystander only shot that driver 5 times is because he didn't have six bullets.

Quoted: Quoted: I would be a good witness but if someone was about to be hurt or they came towards me. Game on. Same here.

+.9bar

Quoted: Quoted: What a chicken crap excuse for cowardice. Well gee, rambo. I never knew that deciding not to engage in a potentially lethal firefight was cowardice. You feel free to involve yourself in someone else's fight and risk getting killed if you want. But there isn't a SINGLE DECENT FIREARMS INSTRUCTOR IN THE UNITED STATES who is going to advocate being hasty to involve yourself in someone else's gunfight. I suppose they are all cowards to, right? Even the former members of Special Forces units and SWAT teams with ACTUAL COMBAT EXPERIENCE??? Yup! Just big ol' cowards! Every one of em!!! Stop watching so damn many movies and wake the heck up.

So let me get this straight, you know every gun instructor in the US! Wow good for you. I hope no one dear to you ever needs to rely on help from a stranger when in a situation where they are being seriously injured or killed. How sad for them, if it's you they are depending on.

In Texas, I was told during CC class that once you draw to defend someone else, you don't have a legal right to stop defending them if things get to hot for you.

Also part of the rules of deadly conduct state using deadly force to protect others from deadly force. I would say a beating from a tire iron is deadly force.

Game over for the bad guy. Yes I would defend a stranger from such an attack at my own risk, & hope that if one of my family members needed help you wern't anywhere near them. I would rather have a child or woman with a gun who was willing to help them out than to have a person who is only concerned about their own safety, & well being to the point of just staying to be a witness.

Yes officer, I watched him hit the girl behind the counter 47 times, it took 5 minutes, & he took all the money, they had a blue car. What a horrible death! Now I have to do my best to erase it from my memory.

Everyone is someone's kid, & no one should be beat to death for working near a cash register, while being watched by a person who doesn't want to get involved.

I'm not Rambo, but I'm not a coward either.

only the moment some harm comes to the clerk or innocent bystander.

I dunno. If they were attacking the clerk, I would probably try to intervene - but initiate the 911 system first. Give address, problem, then drop the phone and try to help.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo.  i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis.  they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder. and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls.  never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store.  i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior. your an idiot.  If they call you, and you show up armed, and do something, your going to prison for a very long time. why is that?  it is legal for me to carry a long arm, and it is legal for me to be in their parking lot.  if a female friend of mine calls me and says "there are some guys hanging out in front of my house.  they haven't done anything yet, but can you come over and keep me company", it is perfectly normal, and legal, for me to show up armed.  and if something does happen, it is perfectly legal to defend her safety and mine. so from a legal standpoint, how is this different?  the couple of times i've responded, the situation has been: a group of 4 or more men enters the store, and behaves in such a manner that the clerk suspects that they may become dangerous.  they have not done anything illegal, so a 911 call would be out of line.  the late-night clerk works alone, however, and wants a friend around in the event that anything bad happens. my SOP is to pull into the 1st space in front of the window, so that i'm clearly visible to both the clerk and anyone standing at the counter.  i open my driver door, plant one foot on the ground, and watch.  my mobile is on my dash, with 911 entered, but not sent.  if anything violent happens, i hit 'send' and give info.  the shotgun is there for me to protect myself. however, if the life or safety of my friend is in jeapordy, i won't hesitate to use force.   what, exactly, would be the legal problem with that?  remember that i live in TX. i would hope that you would use force to defend the life of a friend.

You are not a quaified first responder.  They should call the police not you.  If you did have to shoot someone and this came out, you would look like someone going around looking for an excuse to use the shotgun.  It would seem a better idea for you to be hired by the store as security and be trained and licensed as armed security.  As it is you are asking for a lot of trouble.  

as for the orginal post as it was written
yes , seriously how could you live with yourself to watch  a innocent person beat to death by a thug when you had the means to stop it  and you did nothing
Ill roll the jury dice on that one

Quoted: as for the orginal post as it was written yes , seriously how could you live with yourself to watch  a innocent person beat to death by a thug when you had the means to stop it  and you did nothing Ill roll the jury dice on that one

My thoughts exactly. I would not be able ever forgive myself for not doing something. The rest of my life would be plagued with what ifs.

I would rather have my wife explain to my daughter  that Daddy wasnt here because he was killed trying to save an innocent man's life. Than have her have to explain that daddy cries all the time because he witnessed an innocent man, die practically in his arms, because he didnt attempt to stop the bad guys when he could have made a difference.

James

Quoted: You are not a quaified first responder.  They should call the police not you.

not to be argumentative, but have you ever called 911 in a major metro area at 3AM on a saturday night, and described your emergency as "some suspicious guys are in my convenience store"?  if not, let me enlighten you.  the operator will try not to laugh, and tell you that a unit will be dispatched as soon as possible.

i'm not at all implying negligence on the part of the PD.  what i am saying is that the cops have real calls to respond to at that point, and there simply aren't enough guys on the beat to check out a call that isn't a crime in progress.  do you have any idea what the response time on a non-emergency call is on a weekend night?

i am not a responder.  what i am is john's friend, hany's friend, and eddie's friend.  and these guys know that, if they are scared, they can hit speed 6 and i will be there in less that 3min.  as i said, i've never even had to handle my shotgun in these situations.  but if it is needed, i have it.

Quoted: Quoted: there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo.  i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis.  they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder. and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls.  never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store.  i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior. You must be a badass.

not in the least.  as any cop can tell you, one of the biggest deterrents to a robbery is crowd control.  by being VERY visible and mobile, i represent a crowd control problem for a would-be robber.  by staying in my car, and keeping my weapon out of sight, i am actually nonthreatening, and do not invite escalation.

i do invite opinions from the board LEOs on this tactic.  the DPD and APD guys i've spoken with seem to think it a prudent policy, as long as i 911 before intervening in any way.

Quoted: You did right (IMO) by clearing your family...I would have likely done the same thing. Did you have any information of value to the police? Did you, or were you willing to, offer assistance after the fact of that information?

The cops had him dead to rights on video footage comitting the act, and he fled the scene and ran right into a State trooper who was stopping in for gas and coffee.

Quoted: So let me get this straight, you know every gun instructor in the US! Wow good for you.

No, I don't.

But I dare you to find a single competent instructor who is going to advise that it is a good idea to get yourself involved in someone else's fight willy nilly.

Be my guest.

I hope no one dear to you ever needs to rely on help from a stranger when in a situation where they are being seriously injured or killed. How sad for them, if it's you they are depending on.

You show absolutely ZERO reading comprehension skills.

In Texas, I was told during CC class that once you draw to defend someone else, you don't have a legal right to stop defending them if things get to hot for you.

Whoever told you that is most likely an idiot. I don't believe there is any law in Texas that requires you to finish any fight you get in. If there is, please produce the law. I sincerely doubt you can produce a Texas law that makes it illegal to flee a fight you engaged in to protect a third party to preserve your own life.

Again, this demonstrates that you have been listening to too many gunshop commandos, and not enough people with actual grounding in reason and fact.

Also part of the rules of deadly conduct state using deadly force to protect others from deadly force. I would say a beating from a tire iron is deadly force.

Yes, lethal force laws do allow for the use of lethal force in the defense of the life of a third party. And a tire iron is certainly a potentially lethal weapon.

But just because you are legally authorized to use lethal force, that does NOT mean that doing so is the wisest course of action.

Game over for the bad guy. Yes I would defend a stranger from such an attack at my own risk, & hope that if one of my family members needed help you wern't anywhere near them. I would rather have a child or woman with a gun who was willing to help them out than to have a person who is only concerned about their own safety, & well being to the point of just staying to be a witness. Yes officer, I watched him hit the girl behind the counter 47 times, it took 5 minutes, & he took all the money, they had a blue car. What a horrible death! Now I have to do my best to erase it from my memory. Everyone is someone's kid, & no one should be beat to death for working near a cash register, while being watched by a person who doesn't want to get involved. I'm not Rambo, but I'm not a coward either.

Whatever you say, Rambo.

You obviously lack the maturity to refrain from calling people a "coward", especially when you know absolutely zip about them.

The advice I have given is NO DIFFERENT than the advice you will get from ANY of the top self defense instructors in this nation.

As I said before, I suppose they are all cowards too, right?

You need help.

Quoted: Quoted: You did right (IMO) by clearing your family...I would have likely done the same thing. Did you have any information of value to the police? Did you, or were you willing to, offer assistance after the fact of that information? The cops had him dead to rights on video footage comitting the act, and he fled the scene and ran right into a State trooper who was stopping in for gas and coffee.

That's cool. This one gas station that I park at in between calls at work is 3 blocks from a State Police office, on the border between two cities, and on the service drive to an expressway.... I see cops in there ALL the time fueling up. I don't think they've ever had a problem there. As far as criminal activity goes, that is the same gas station I called 911 at duie to the domestic disturbance in the parking lot.

No Expert

Any of you guys ever been in a convenience store?
The door is always right by the counter, so how would you escape?

I suppose you could try to sneak out the back room/stock area if you are near the back door/restroom area.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Where are you Libertarians? Shouldn't the clerk have provided for his own well being and carried his own gun...? (I'm not trying to provoke anything but being called a coward isn't sitting well with me. ) many companies won't let you carry on the job. many clerks are highschoolers or college students under 21 and cannot legally carry. I know many companies won't let you carry. Mine doesn't. As to the clerks, I get that too. Maybe the companies should take more responsibility for their employee's welfare. Getting them beaten or shot should be something they do more than just a probability assessment on.

Well to most companies, the low level clerks are expendable and replaceable. You can be sure someone did a cost analysis of whether it's cheaper to replace an occasional clerk vs the higher cost of liability insurance having armed employees. I first encountered this in a GUN STORE/pistol range owned by several lawyers. The employees, despite encountering armed homies coming into the range every day, were NOT allowed to carry. I had body armor, and carried some loaded magazines to perhaps pop into a convienent gun for sale...when they said I couldn't have the magazines, I hit the road.

Quoted: Any of you guys ever been in a convenience store? The door is always right by the counter, so how would you escape? I suppose you could try to sneak out the back room/stock area if you are near the back door/restroom area.

There are always fire exits that are mandated by law.

They make for wonderful escape routes in case of robbery.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: there is a gas station about 100yds from my condo.  i've been going there for about 8 years, and know all the employees on a first-name, "how did your wife's surgery go?" basis.  they have my mobile number on the speed dial as an armed responder. and yes, i have shown up armed to several calls.  never had to "draw down", but have pulled into the 1st parking space with the shotty under a blanket while waiting for suspicious groups to finish their purchases and leave the store.  i assume that the presence of a witness in a running car, with mobile phone on the dashboard, is enough to deter any misbehavior. You must be a badass. not in the least.  as any cop can tell you, one of the biggest deterrents to a robbery is crowd control.  by being VERY visible and mobile, i represent a crowd control problem for a would-be robber.  by staying in my car, and keeping my weapon out of sight, i am actually nonthreatening, and do not invite escalation. i do invite opinions from the board LEOs on this tactic.  the DPD and APD guys i've spoken with seem to think it a prudent policy, as long as i 911 before intervening in any way.

Any cop can tell you what your doing is not a good idea.  If your only 100 yards away why not just put the window up and use a sniper rifle?

Initiation of force is always wrong. However, if you are coming to the defense of another then you are responding to someone elses initiation of force.

Shoot the perp.

A tire iron? WTF is he going to do with a tire iron?

I'd pelt him with bagels...

Tire iron, I'd lend a hand.
Knife, I'd probably lend a hand.
Gun, only if I really thought it was possible to disarm the guy and shoot him in the face with his own gun.

If I could CCW in my state I'd help in every instance.