The reality is that marriage is a legal financial partnership contract enforced by the laws of the state, and if either party decides they want to end the contract, then the assets of that partnership will be divided according to the laws of the state.  Why would you want to ever give a person that kind of leverage to use against you? If a man and a women want to spend the rest of their life together, and they are two great people that are capable of building a lifelong relationship, why do they need a legal contract and state laws to enforce the commitment of that relationship?

Pushing 50,never married,no kids.
For me I never wanted to commit,slave at a job just to support a wife and family
Really didn't want the hassle to be honest.
Right choice? Who knows
I have always sorta felt that I don't make enough money for a wife and family -I can pay for my living just fine but add a family I don't see how people do it without going in to debt.
And if I'm being truthful women have always been a mystery for me - I have never been able to keep a quality one. If I can't/couldn't get a good one why bother


I will say that there is a preconceived notion that if your 50 and never committed to a wife and family that there is something "off" about you by others
I will also say I'm concerned as I get older about healthcare and who is going to help me like I helped my parents when I get old.
The die has been cast and I'm almost 2/3 down this trail so there can be no crying or turning back now
Things work out how they are supposed to-I'm just glad that I didn't rush into anything and end up paying alimony or child support but then again I didn't "win" like some of you apparently have.

Because a good marriage is the best thing ever.

Marriage used to make sense in our culture. It offered economic opportunity, physical security and social advantages. When couples said; "for better or worse" they meant it because the "worse" part was a certainty of life. Married life was not always happy but it was almost always better than the alternatives and so men and women persevered through the hard times and with a little luck managed to carve out an overall content and secure life for themselves and their children.

Today, Big Government has removed many of the incentives for men and women to weather the rough parts of marriage or to even marry in the first place. "Entitlements" such as food stamps, section 8 housing, free child-care (still euphemistically called "education") have become surrogate providers for women and encouraged men and women alike to behave badly and reward poor decision making. Selfishness and narcissism have become accepted and celebrated in our culture, just actually listen to the lyrics of today's popular music.



My Aunt once told me a story-

Many years ago my Uncle worked in a steel mill (remember when America actually made steel). His Wife kept the household and managed their 8 children. Once a week she would enjoy an hour or two playing Bridge with other Homemakers in the neighborhood. One day, during a game, one of the other woman purposely remarked to my Aunt about another young woman she knew whose husband worked at the same steel mill as my Uncle. It seems this young couple was having problems and the young man had taken to getting drunk and perhaps getting a little rough with his young bride. Those few words were all that was necessary to set a social correction in motion. My Aunt mentioned it to her Husband who found out who this young man was and who his Supervisor was at the mill. The Supervisor called the young man into his office to ask him if there was any "problems at home". After a long discussion about the responsibilities of being a husband and a father the young man got the message that there are social consequences to bad behavior. This young couple addressed their problems and together they built their household and raised their family all without involvement from the police, the courts or child-protective services. Their children grew up happy and well-adjusted with both male and female positive role models and without Government "help".

The ONLY reason I got remarried after my divorce was the fate-like reunion with the girl I SHOULD HAVE MARRIED in the first place.

If this marriage fails (do not think it will but who knows?) I will not remarry.

And so does TS.
I'm looking for an equal, someone to "share" with and to have share with me equally.

Then you don't need to be thinking about getting married. Beggars can't be choosers. You need to get over the low self esteem hurdle before you even start thinking about marriage.

I'd say it's easier for a women to walk away from a marriage. She leaves and guy has to pay her to do so. I can't even count the amount of miserable married men I worked with who would of left their wives in a second if it didn't mean financial ruin. "Cheaper to keep her" was a term heard quite often.

While on one hand, I agree with the OP, I also think picking well through a long job interview process helps the chances of success. Differences between people in your selection are critical. The longer the process of picking, the lower the chances of being fooled.... says the guy who dated 10 days, wrote letters for 3 months, and is still married after 29 years. But it is not like there aren't things that each of us does that make the other crazy.

This all comes down to choosing a mate based on her background, good nature, and getting to know her CHARACTER not just the superficial shit that you want to see.





It's possible.





It's not blind luck.





Most men marry women based on a dab of relationship experience and some sexual attractions. They spend very little time talking, a lot of time ignoring warning signs from their family, past relationships and current behavior.





The first bit to doing it right is recognizing that you're apt to choose women based on your experiences and attractions, and if the track record is bad then your attractions are putting you into the "it feels right" path of someone who isn't good for you. That is YOUR fault, period. You can choose to break that trend. I did. Lots of men have learned and adapted. Others keep failing.





You also have to start using your eyes and ears to see and hear what people are really like before falling in love with them, fucking them, and committing to them. You can see all kinds of 'tells' about people if you're willing to look, and spend some time actually getting to know them not just dating and fucking.





When I met my wife, I was at a point where I had enough of princesses and demanding women with issues. I liked my wife, she was a pretty lady and all that, but there weren't lightning bolts and hot sex right out of the gate. I took it easy with her and tried to really get to know her as a person and pay attention to her family, her friends, how she treats people, listen to her about her previous relationships and how she's coped with life's disappointments. I paid attention to her ambitions, what she expects and wants out of life, and most importantly her thoughts on marriage and what that means to her.





Her answers and my observations told me she was very much like me, in it for the journey and willing to fight to keep it together. We spent a lot of time talking these things out, understanding ourselves, and I was pretty confident that she was going to be a great wife and mother before ever popping the question. Our love developed slowly, and for the first time in my life it felt like a good decision instead of visceral attraction.





Was there luck involved? A bit, but it turns out an informed decision turned out better than guessing. And, we haven't been blessed with life. She and I have fought for the strength of our marriage and faced some really shitty times.





If you meet someone, fall head over heels, and get hitched - there's a shit ton of luck involved and all your hypothetical would be scary "what if's".




 
 

See above. You can always tell, or you haven't spent enough time with your pants zipped and your eyes open.



I have one hell of a string of shitty relationships before I started having good ones.



I'm not the luckiest guy in the world, but I learned how to cope with my own attractions.



 

I really believe that as well.



I wen through about 8 serious long term relationships before I found the one. I'm not talking about one night stands I mean I was with these 8 girls for 3 months to 2 years each. There wasn't any I even thought about marrying it wasn't even a concept in my head. I think one brought it up and I laughed at her.



Also dating doesn't mean shit until you live together. I could date a lot of people but can only live with a particular person. You should live with the person for a year before getting married if possible. When you start spending every waking moment with someone you find out quick if that is the person you want to be with.



Don't delude yourselves! That is a big one. My best friend I have known my whole life is dating a vegetarian liberal right now.... He says he thinks she is the one but he is so wrong and he doesn't even know yet. They are fundamentally against each others views and constantly trying to change each other. It's a fucking ship wreck waiting to happen and everyone can see it except for them because they WANT it to work so bad they are lying to themselves, but that tension is going to build up and they ARE going to split eventually. Hopefully between now and then he isn't stupid enough to marry her.





 

Yup, he's going on attractions - IT FEELS SO RIGHT - instead of using his rational brain to decide who will be his life's mate.



This is where and why men fail.



Then they log in to arfcom and squeal about the injustice of marriage and how women change.



And women have the same problem fellas - a lot of them marry and choose men based on "feels so right" or "he's got money and prospects" or worse "I've been with him for 3 years, I need to be married"....shit that has nothing to do with long term happiness.



 

Life is risky.

My wife and I are committed to our contract.  If we had wanted to fuck around, travel, and party throughout our 20s and 30s then sure, we could have just gone with our word that we would do it together.

Instead we assumed the monumental chore of buying a house together and having two kids.  The marital contract serves as an umbrella over a multitude of familial commitments.  We don't have to wonder about who is going to do what and for how long.  Everything related to raising our family is covered by one word: marriage.

Paper is as paper does.  

The problem with marriage for a lot of people is the person they marry misrepresents who they are during the courtship phase and changes after marriage. Then there's the fact that there is a high percentage of spouses that cheat. Then if/when you do get divorced, it's usually a losing proposition for the man and he is put at a severe disadvantage with the woman coming out way ahead financially. From a statistical standpoint, the odds aren't good. Even if 50% of marriages last, those still aren't great odds when your lifestyle and emotional well being are on the line.

I'm on the fence. I dunno if I'll ever get married. I like the idea of getting married. I don't like the idea of getting fucked over or making a substantial emotional investment in a relationship only to have it dissolve, which happens oh so frequently.

I'm with OP.  Seems pointless.  The risk of marrying an A-hole are too great.  (I'm most likely one of those A-holes I admit.)  Occasionally you run across a couple who seems to have it together and says everyday of marriage is great, but to be honest I'm not all that impressed with the benefits of a great marriage.  Factor in the huge risk of marrying the wrong person and it's a crappy deal.

Also, gay people need to STFU.  They don't know how good they got it without marriage.

BAH

I think that you and others who write these sorts of things are missing a big point.  Its more about circumstances that change, not people.  A man and a woman get married, their lives begin to change dramatically.  After a few years Dad decides that he's not happy fucking only one woman, Mom decides that she's bored at home with the kids and missing her job, both man and wife are suffocating under a mortgage and constant din of kids running around making a mess...

They can't handle it and things fall apart.  But at the end of the day, they're basically the same people; people who couldn't work through changing circumstances.

Those actually aren't hypothetical what ifs.  They have either happened to myself, my parents, or people I know.  What I've noticed is that the "older generation", people who are now in their 50's to 70's have all stuck together, where as every under 35 has split.  That tells me there has been a big cultural shift and even though things worked before, more out of necessity than anything, they aren't a motivating force in keeping relationships together now.

Technology, availability of social programs, and laws on child support have greatly changed the culture of relationships.  Thirty years ago a housewife with 2 kids would be hard pressed to just leave.  No job, no income, little to no child support, and barely enough in food stamps to eat.  Today she would be rewarded for leaving.  Free housing, food, internet, cellphone...etc.  Back in the day the primary option was trying to work things out.  Today the primary option is "taking a break".  

Sure there are good ways to approach a relationship but there are no guarantees.  I did everything you described with my ex-wife. I took my time, got to know her, tested her personality, and I had no doubts about her.  The only thing I didn't take serious enough was her parents who were still together, were both disabled and on pain medication.  They had rough lives, the dad had 8 back surgeries and the mom had a heart attack and breast cancer.  I gave them a pass on things.  Looking back it could have been signs of addiction in the family.

What I'm hearing you say is that if anyone in his/her family has any type of addiction issues, abuse issues, or commitment issues then they are damaged goods and not suitable for a relationship.  Anyone that has had a bad past relationship is damaged goods and not suitable for a relationship.  That eliminates most men and women from the serious relationship pool.

What part of past relationships should be considered?  The girl I have been seeing recently says she fell out of love with her husband because he stopped showing any interest in her or their kids, so she filed for divorce.  Is that enough to kick her out of the serious relationship pool?

That's something that drives me crazy in my situation-constantly having to justify why I want these things and try and give her reasons why she should want to provide them.
Definitely not commited to me...too much other stuff out there to grab her attention.

Nick

This is true.  In the Clinton years I was in the "pure profit" tax bracket.  My future x-wife and I were paying through the nose in taxes.  A couple of years we even had penalties.  Our tax adviser told us to buy a bigger house or get divorced or have more kids

If you both work and make more than 75K a year it's crazy to get married.  Get the power of attorney and make a committed civil union.  

Those tax brackets are probably coming back with Obama in for 4 more years.  

Several reasons.





Statistically it is the best environment to raise children.  That is a
correlation not necessarily a causation.  Perhaps those inclined to make
and keep long term commitments just tend to make better parents.  That
said, being part of a split family that is now geographically divided -
it is hell on the kids.





It can simply contracts.  It creates an economic unit of 2 people.  We
then get combine this unit for a huge number of things - be it income
averaging for income tax, to joint ownership of assets (that
individually neither could afford).  We insure the unit as a group.  We
often hold them joint and severally liable for contracts.





Finally investment.  Tons of money and time are invested in
relationships.  You would probably not go into a business relationship
without a contract - why would you want to go into a personal
relationship without one.
 

Been very happily married for 16 years.  I wouldn't want it any other way.  

I can also completely understand someone else not wanting to take the financial risk.  I think it's deplorable that men are still expected to support their ex-wives.  I don't like that people are so jaded against love and marriage.......but I understand why they are.  

I think WAY too  many people enter into marriages with people who are already showing warning signs of being a horrible match.  Everyone else seems to see it beforehand though.    And there are also those people who do 180 degree turns after marriage and shock everybody.  That happens much less often, IMO, but it happens.  

I don't know what needs to happen to make lifelong marriage the gold standard again, or even if it should be------I just think it's sad that almost nobody believes in happily-ever-after anymore.  

I've said it before and I'll say it again;  My wife and I both agree, having met juni4ling and his family, that he married a wonderful woman and chose wisely.  There's a lot to be said about wisely choosing a wonderful woman to marry.

Alliteration fail.  Fixed it for ya

Thanks.

Tax, insurance, and legal benefits. Also, I'm kinda sentimental.

I still think lifetime marriage is the gold standard.  I just think fewer and fewer people are up to the standard.

Interesting.  I never thought of you as the sentimental type.

It's a glaring, huge, never-should-be-discounted red flag, not a deal killer.



Psychological, behavioral and addiction problems almost never happen in a vacuum. They come from somewhere, and most often are the result of genetics + childhood trauma/experience.



Yeah, if you have your eyes wide open and see the potential landmines, the dating pool shrinks like a motherfucker.



But you know what? That's the price of admission.



It's worth noting that there are lots of good, healthy, resilient people from shitty backgrounds or with addiction in the family that don't succumb to it, so nothing is an absolute but in those cases you have to look for the tangible signs that they are not going to fall into those traps or come unglued down the line. How do you do that? Talking about those very issues. Asking the right questions about their decision making, their attractions, past relationships, whether or not they're self-aware about these things, how they coped with it, and how those issues have affected them throughout their adult lives.



 

A very good point.  My family history on my father's side is rife with alcoholism.  However that hasn't been a problem for my grandfather, my dad, or myself because we simply choose not to drink liquor at all.  So the predisposition for us becomes a moot point through our lifestyle choices.

Custody issues and money keep a lot of unhappy couples together. It's commonly said that half of all marriages end in divorce. I'd say the half that stay together could be further divided into those that are happily married and those that are just financially codependent or "staying together for the kids". So reality is probably closer to a person having a one in four chance of living happily ever after.

A valid point. There is little dispute that divorce laws in most states favor women. So having the government back you up every step of the way makes saying "I don't" pretty easy. There is a huge safety net in place for single mothers funded by both the tax payer and the ex husband. Is it a coincidence that the majority of divorces are filed by women? Probably not.

Have y'all read the five love languages? It could really help open up communication and help y'all understand each other better.

Other way around.

The State becomes the Family for you and then families are destroyed.

That really depends on the woman's country of origin. Women from the Former Soviet Union are known for being as you described. In other places around the world, not so much.

Here's the thing to remember: People shy away from some foreign brides for fear of "getting scammed". Ask yourself what your definition of "getting scammed" is. Odds are, it would match up with what happens to the vast majority of American men who either get divorced or stay in unhappy marriages.

We all agree that a "scammer" is a person who misrepresents him or herself. In your example, the woman wanted citizenship and a steady income from a divorce settlement. Many American men would tell you that they got scammed by American women...but it wasn't for citizenship; it was for a steady income stream....with or without the divorce. Once the goal of that particular scammer is achieved, the weight piles on, the hair gets short, and the sex gets to be nonexistent. For the scammer, once the contract is signed and her income stream is secure, she's off the clock as far as her responsibilities in the marriage are concerned.

It's human nature to coast a little bit, but that's not what we're talking about.

We're talking about a culture that, for decades, has promoted the idea that the things men want and need out of a relationship are wrong and need correcting.

Couple that with a court system that, in many ways, promotes a lack of responsibility and accountability among married women and you get a toxic environment for marriage.

The world is not a consequence free playground....as many out there would like it to be.

See sig line

Insurance

I'm much the same way (as what Snow describes).  I will flat out bend over backward to take care of a man in a relationship...until such time as he talks himself out of the privilege of such treatment, anyway.  Once I'm getting subjected to being taken advantage of, being walked upon, and ungrateful bitching, the special treatment goes away fast.

50% of us did, as well as His Needs, Her Needs, and Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus.
The other 50% said "sure, I can read them sometime", but got caught up in other books/activities and let them gather dust.

Nick

Absolutely, and any woman who was concerned about that would have ample evidence that you're likely not going to repeat that cycle.
It's all about due diligence. A new relationship is a detective story for you, your job is to figure this person out and find out if they fit...and your answers determine whether you bail, or date them, or marry them. And, here's another thing. You might meet someone who is a little damaged, or comes from a dicey background and has made some poor decisions in the past. This shouldn't preclude you from knowing or caring about them....they're human beings and they deserve the chance at happiness too....but the important part is you shouldn't rush into a lifelong relationship with them or attempt it without a long track record of them walking the straight and narrow in regards to themselves and their relationships. Nothing wrong with dating someone for a few years and living with them. It'll flare, if it's going to implode.
My sister is a great example of this. She's got abandonment issues, big time (dad died when was 8, it traumatized her) and she's grenaded every good relationship she's ever had because of it. Each time she meets a new guy, she tells him of her past troubles but says she's learned and is ready to move on. What happens? She grenades this new relationship right on schedule. The guy trying to sniff her out might have heard the right answer, he sees sincerity and a person who needs a new start and might have even thought he was special and the guy to make her ok again. But what he didn't do was allow her time to prove that. They all rush in, and then it implodes.
If you have doubts, you shouldn't be marrying someone. If you don't have the answers to the big questions and there's smoke in her past, assume that the embers are still burning and wait it out. People always reveal their hand.
 

On of ya'll in here posted that futurist article in here. I was up until daylight reading that sucker. I'm not even 1/3 done  and am a fast reader lol. Great article and he/she speaks truth.

I'm sorry. That's an awful spot to be in. Have you done anything to "show her you mean business" or do you not want to risk the divorce? Some folks shape up when you start walking out the door, some help you pack. I don't envy your position.

There's a lot of great stuff in there, but there's a few wild ass assumptions and personal prejudices. It would benefit from critiquing and editing. I was especially impressed with the author's suggestions for remedying the situation.

Have a six year old daughter.
I have madde some noises on meaning business, but always shy away from actually doing it.
She is very good at pushing my buttons and knows how to steer me quite well.
Her typical response is "I guess I'm just a rotten person and you should just leave and find someone".
HOW ABOUT WORKING WITH ME INSTEAD OF JUST THROWING THAT DOWN ON THE TABLE EVERY TIME?!?
Yes, I'm a little frustrated at the situation.

Nick

Like anything in life there is risk involved.

IMO too many people either can't or won't do the proper / honest assessments to enable them to make good decisions.

Plus- a successful marriage is a ton of work.  And it is always a work in progress.  

Some people are just trainwrecks and if they can't get their lives together, how could they expect to have a successful marriage?

(Happily married for 16 years here...)

4073

That's a common misconception.  These days a lot of companies have domestic partner benefits and any benefits automatically created by marriage and/or community property laws can be created by good estate planning, contracts, POD bank accounts, power of attorney etc.  Really just planning that everyone should be doing married or not.  Personally I think the gay marriage proponents have really pushed this misconception more than anyone else.  

Now take two income earning families that make lets say make 50k a year each and guess what, your write offs start phasing out, not IRA contributions. no interest deductions and your rates are higher.  Break that marriage up and each party living together is financially better off because you get to keep more of your income and save more.  Don't get me started on the AMT issue.

Counseling should be used by folks like you and your wife, right now, while the resentment is there but hasn't erupted and made your fracture irreparable.





It was not made to repair already broken marriages...but that's how it gets used so often, and why people seldom trust that it works.





Get some, right now. If your wife resists (she likely will), tell her that you want her to go because you still want the marriage to work and your daughter to grow up in a loving home, because otherwise you're heading for the rocks and the damage that will do to your little girl and her future relationships can never be taken back.





Then, you both need to do the work to rebuild your relationship. It can be done, and hopefully your wife responds to nearly losing you.





Otherwise, from what you're communicating, the marriage is already over.





 

Nick, I really hope that you can get her to go. A counselor can really help with mediation and teaching "fair fighting". I hope you can get some cooperation out of her.