Why are Porsche 944's and 928's so inexpensive? - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why are Porsche 944's and 928's so inexpensive? (Page 3 of 4)

Posted: 9/2/2010 5:28:05 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
because the 944 isn't really a porsche

the 928 is, but unless you own an exotic/import repair shop, you might as well be making payments on something newer.

I'd drive a well maintained 3 liter 968. Very cool cars. I know they are related to the 944.

Just a bit. Lol.
It is a 944S2 with VarioCam, and different fenders, hood, and bumper covers.
And that's it.
Doors, hatch, body, roof, all mechanical parts except for the (unreliable) 6-speed and the addition of VarioCam to the S2s 3.0.
Had more than a few.

Here's my last:

Posted: 9/2/2010 6:57:17 AM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...

Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...

Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those

You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.

It appears that I've inadvertently hit a sore spot.

I'm referring to a Man, not the Marque.

Posted: 9/2/2010 7:05:06 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...

Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...

Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those

You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.

It appears that I've inadvertently hit a sore spot.

I'm referring to a Man, not the Marque.

You have, actually.
So tell me, how much of HDPFCP is there in a 914?
Considering he died in 1951, and all....
Are we considering the "Man" to be Piech?
Because in that battle, Fuhrmann > Piech.

Edit:
I really don't mean to be an ass, but I am absolutely appalled by the endless Porsche owner antagonism over what a "real" Porsche is.
Here's a hint: they all are.
And I love them all, and hate them all.
Some I prefer more than others, some I think are silly, some I worship.
But, at the end of the day, they're all Porsches.

Posted: 9/2/2010 7:38:50 AM EDT

[#4]

Not many dealerships, expensive to buy, expensive to own and maintain, and not many qualified mechanics.

I heard the early ones weren't very fast.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:00:39 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...

Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...

Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those

You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.

It appears that I've inadvertently hit a sore spot.

I'm referring to a Man, not the Marque.

You have, actually.
So tell me, how much of HDPFCP is there in a 914?
Considering he died in 1951, and all....
Are we considering the "Man" to be Piech?
Because in that battle, Fuhrmann > Piech.

Edit:
I really don't mean to be an ass, but I am absolutely appalled by the endless Porsche owner antagonism over what a "real" Porsche is.
Here's a hint: they all are.
And I love them all, and hate them all.
Some I prefer more than others, some I think are silly, some I worship.
But, at the end of the day, they're all Porsches.

It would only appear that way to non-Porsche people.

The Man I mean is Ferdinand Porsche although arguably I should say Ferry. I don't, because I see Ferry as the peak of his father's influence, as we sons often are. I see Piech as the downward slope. The old story of the first generation dreams it, the second generation realizes the dream and the third generation... That and I'm not a 911 fanatic. I prefer the 356, they've just gotten too expensive to play with.

The 914 is the beginning of an end. It still has ghosts of the 356, and yes the VW Type 1, but it's the point where in house designs for other Marques became, to my mind, too influential.

I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:16:15 AM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Because a 914 is more Porsche than a 928/944/924

Please don't get into 911/912s. There are enough of us...

Lol.
Not.

The 914, which was actually SOLD designed to be co-marketed as a VW and a Porsche...

Sadly there is very little Porsche in every model there after. Pay no attention to me, I'm one of those

You can parse it anyway you want -you're wrong.
The 914 was sold as a Volkswagen-Porsche in every market except NA.

I'll play the game, as I have many times before.
How many parts does a 928 share with any non-Porsche automobile? Any year, engine, anything.
How many parts does a 928 share with any other Porsche model?
How many parts does the 914 share with any non-Porsche automobile?

But pay no attention to me, I'm just a factory-trained and certified Porsche technician who owns a successful Porsche independent shop.

It appears that I've inadvertently hit a sore spot.

I'm referring to a Man, not the Marque.

You have, actually.
So tell me, how much of HDPFCP is there in a 914?
Considering he died in 1951, and all....
Are we considering the "Man" to be Piech?
Because in that battle, Fuhrmann > Piech.

Edit:
I really don't mean to be an ass, but I am absolutely appalled by the endless Porsche owner antagonism over what a "real" Porsche is.
Here's a hint: they all are.
And I love them all, and hate them all.
Some I prefer more than others, some I think are silly, some I worship.
But, at the end of the day, they're all Porsches.

It would only appear that way to non-Porsche people.

The Man I mean is Ferdinand Porsche although arguably I should say Ferry. I don't, because I see Ferry as the peak of his father's influence, as we sons often are. I see Piech as the downward slope. The old story of the first generation dreams it, the second generation realizes the dream and the third generation... That and I'm not a 911 fanatic. I prefer the 356, they've just gotten too expensive to play with.

The 914 is the beginning of an end. It still has ghosts of the 356, and yes the VW Type 1, but it's the point where in house designs for other Marques became, to my mind, too influential.

I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Well said.
My personal favorite Porsche is the 993, I view it as the peak, but then, I've played with 356s too much, including owning a few, and my tastes in vintage cars run British. I think the engineering pinnacle was reached with the 928, as it really was the ultimate engineering exercise.

My mother dated a guy who has a 356 Carrera Abarth GTL.
Now that is a car I could worship. Lol.

Edit: And frankly, I have a real fondness for the relentless engineering and development pursued by Butzi, Piech, and Fuhrmann.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:18:44 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Air cooling limits horsepower. That is why no one makes an aircooled car anymore and why performance motorcycles are now water cooled. There was an overwhelming engineering reason that Porsche abandoned air cooling.

And did you actually use the phrase "engineering simplicity" in reference to a German designed and manufactured car?

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:30:55 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Air cooling limits horsepower. That is why no one makes an aircooled car anymore and why performance motorcycles are now water cooled. There was an overwhelming engineering reason that Porsche abandoned air cooling.

And did you actually use the phrase "engineering simplicity" in reference to a German designed and manufactured car?

I have to disagree about the air cooling limiting HP. Take a look at the 917/30. It has more to do with EPA standards than the method of cooling. The EPA was about the death knell of the 911 until PWShultz said hell no.

I have to agree about the 993, last of an iconic breed, but also have to say I am way biased towards the 928 and its engineering achievements....

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:32:59 AM EDT

[#9]

We have a guy who works delivers for Pizza Hut in an old 941 in our neighborhood.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:33:16 AM EDT

[#10]

Did they ever fix the oil leak problems on the 911's? The older versions leaked like a stuck pig!

Never really liked the 924-944 models but there was something about the 914-6 that always had me looking for the 5 lugs on the 914's

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:35:30 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Did they ever fix the oil leak problems on the 911's? The older versions leaked like a stuck pig!

Never really liked the 924-944 models but there was something about the 914-6 that always had me looking for the 5 lugs on the 914's

"If an air cooled 911 is not leaking oil it is out of oil." I still have the stains on my garage floor to testify to that old gem.

I actually got mine to stop leaking.

Mostly.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:37:50 AM EDT

[#12]

Ahh, the ease of dropping an engine for sealing up the leaks. Unless the case is leaking. haha

Posted: 9/2/2010 9:28:35 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Air cooling limits horsepower. That is why no one makes an aircooled car anymore and why performance motorcycles are now water cooled. depending on There was an overwhelming engineering reason that Porsche abandoned air cooling.

And did you actually use the phrase "engineering simplicity" in reference to a German designed and manufactured car?

I have to disagree about the air cooling limiting HP. Take a look at the 917/30. It has more to do with EPA standards than the method of cooling. The EPA was about the death knell of the 911 until PWShultz said hell no.

I have to agree about the 993, last of an iconic breed, but also have to say I am way biased towards the 928 and its engineering achievements....

A 930 produced 300HP from a turbo 3.3 liter. A normally aspirated first year 996 made 296HP from a 3.4 liter water cooled engine. Of course a lot happened in the years between those two cars.

The last air cooled Porsche, the 993, made 285 HP from a normally aspirated 3.6 liter engine, 79HP/liter. The very next year the 996 offered 296HP from a normally aspirated 3.4 liter engine, 87 HP/liter. That is a 10% increase in output per liter with the move to water cooling. Yes, there were other changes as well. But, was there another year when the output per liter of displacement jumped by 10% during the air cooled era?

I really enjoy air cooled Porsches. Mine was air cooled. There is really nothing quite like the oily smell of a first generation 911. But air cooled engines have gone the way of the dinosaur for very good non-EPA reasons. I don't see any modern race cars running air cooled engines and most of them are exempt from EPA regulations. If they could get the same or better power out of air cooled engines as they do from water cooled engines some race car engine builder somewhere would be doing so considering all the advantages in weight and simplicity an air cooled engine has over its water cooled siblings.

Posted: 9/2/2010 9:50:34 AM EDT

[#14]

Said 917/30. 1100hp there.

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:02:27 AM EDT

[#15]

356 B Carrera 4 Cam

One sexy engine. 1966cc putting out 130 bhp.

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:03:17 AM EDT

[#16]

Again, at the factory, when I was there for my first tour as a Porsche tech (2000), it was explained that the reasons for the death of the air-cooled engine were:

1) EPA standards.
2) The inability to use a 4-valve head and retain proper air-cooling. All the previous air-cooled Porsches had two valves per cylinder.
and
3) The new noise restrictions in many EU countries. The concentration of engine, intake, and exhaust noise in one location, as opposed to spread along the length of the car, necessitated cooling jackets for noise insulation principles.

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:05:27 AM EDT

[#17]

Cheap? Where? The 928 is a beautiful car... I've lusted after one since I got a Hot Wheels model of one when I was a small kid

On Craigslist here right now I see an 86 for $17k, an 88 for $20k, and a 78 with no interior and engine noises for $1600.

But after all that, and being a bit of a VW fan(and missing my recently sold Bug), I still would LOVE to pick up an old aircooled 911...

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:07:53 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Air cooling limits horsepower. That is why no one makes an aircooled car anymore and why performance motorcycles are now water cooled. There was an overwhelming engineering reason that Porsche abandoned air cooling.

And did you actually use the phrase "engineering simplicity" in reference to a German designed and manufactured car?

I have to disagree about the air cooling limiting HP. Take a look at the 917/30. It has more to do with EPA standards than the method of cooling. The EPA was about the death knell of the 911 until PWShultz said hell no.

I have to agree about the 993, last of an iconic breed, but also have to say I am way biased towards the 928 and its engineering achievements....

1995 GT2 please!

LOVE THAT CAR!

But I gotta say that the newest generation of turbos are really making me drool as well. Certain aspects of 959 design incorporated into the new turbos makes them look like a land based cruise missle.

Also, I'd love a couple 968, not sure why but I just like them.

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:10:56 AM EDT

[#19]

If we goin down that road, I'll take a street prepped GT1

Quoted:

Quoted:
I understand the accounting logic in marketing a fully manufacture ready car design that the client turned down, that has a ready market... Or the business logic in developing a new front engined water cooled car when air cooled cars are suddenly the scourge of the english speaking world... Or the wisdom in repeating a formula that worked.

I don't understand leaving behind attempted perfection in engineering simplicity in the process. Or succinctly put: When it comes to Porsches, a factory trained mechanic should be just like air conditioning, a luxury option.

Air cooling limits horsepower. That is why no one makes an aircooled car anymore and why performance motorcycles are now water cooled. There was an overwhelming engineering reason that Porsche abandoned air cooling.

And did you actually use the phrase "engineering simplicity" in reference to a German designed and manufactured car?

I have to disagree about the air cooling limiting HP. Take a look at the 917/30. It has more to do with EPA standards than the method of cooling. The EPA was about the death knell of the 911 until PWShultz said hell no.

I have to agree about the 993, last of an iconic breed, but also have to say I am way biased towards the 928 and its engineering achievements....

1995 GT2 please!

LOVE THAT CAR!

Also, I'd love a couple 968, not sure why but I just like them.

Posted: 9/2/2010 7:03:25 PM EDT

[#20]

"One Car to Rule Them All....."

Those that know, Know.

Posted: 9/2/2010 8:27:33 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

My mother dated a guy who has a 356 Carrera Abarth GTL.

Now that is a car I could worship. Lol.

I'm a seriously obsessive Abarth fanatic, and that's the only Porsche I would be interested in.

Posted: 9/2/2010 9:27:27 PM EDT

[#22]

I've had two 944 when I was younger. Fun to drive. Second one was a piece of shit that blew a head gasket and I unloaded it for $1500 and was happy.

Saw a SWEET black 928 awhile ago at the gas station. Talked to the guy for awhile. Very nice car.

Hey Toiyabe66,

How many 996s have you seen with toasted engines? My 99 has 90,000 miles on it and runs like new but sometimes I fear hearing a fateful noise from the back.....Just curious to hear first hand experience from someone who works on Porsches regularly.

Posted: 9/2/2010 9:43:22 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
"One Car to Rule Them All....."

Those that know, Know.

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p177/dwarthog_2006/Porsche968TurboS_01.jpg

Yeah, that car in my garage along with a matching color 993 GT2 would pretty much be an orgasm every time I walked into the garage. It has things I like most from the 928 and things I like most from the 944.

Posted: 9/2/2010 10:10:10 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nobody wants them...

I want a 928!

I was a kid when my dad had 356's, and they were just releasing the 911. I hated the 911, it was just too weird. We used to make all the 'local' races, Nelson Ledges, Watkins Glen, Summit Point. A lot of the guys in the SCCA weren't happy, and I'm sure that was a big reason for my displeasure.

That said, the 928S was the first model after the 911 came out that made my pants tight.

Posted: 9/3/2010 4:07:45 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
They are made in Stuttgart, Germany (the horse in the logo is also the city logo);

German labor is not cheap to begin with, and Stuttgart is one of the most expensive areas to live in Germany.

Porsche also contracts some production from Valmet in Finland, IIRC.

Posted: 9/3/2010 4:11:29 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Nobody wants them...

I want a 928!

Neighbor across the street has had one for sale for about a year. He wants $3500 for it, don't think it's sold yet but it's not in the front yard anymore.

Posted: 9/3/2010 4:42:20 AM EDT

[#27]

Because you get what you pay for.

Posted: 9/3/2010 4:49:04 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

I've had two 944 when I was younger. Fun to drive. Second one was a piece of shit that blew a head gasket and I unloaded it for $1500 and was happy.

Saw a SWEET black 928 awhile ago at the gas station. Talked to the guy for awhile. Very nice car.

Hey Toiyabe66,

How many 996s have you seen with toasted engines? My 99 has 90,000 miles on it and runs like new but sometimes I fear hearing a fateful noise from the back.....Just curious to hear first hand experience from someone who works on Porsches regularly.

Timing chain tensioner failures on the 1999s, and block failures on all years.
If it's the chains and tensioners - get it looked at and fixed NOW.

Posted: 9/3/2010 5:22:14 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

I've had two 944 when I was younger. Fun to drive. Second one was a piece of shit that blew a head gasket and I unloaded it for $1500 and was happy.

Saw a SWEET black 928 awhile ago at the gas station. Talked to the guy for awhile. Very nice car.

Hey Toiyabe66,

How many 996s have you seen with toasted engines? My 99 has 90,000 miles on it and runs like new but sometimes I fear hearing a fateful noise from the back.....Just curious to hear first hand experience from someone who works on Porsches regularly.

Also make sure you get the updated IMS -intermediate shaft assembly

Posted: 9/4/2010 3:00:00 PM EDT

[#30]

Any reason I wouldn't want an '04 Cayanne?

Posted: 9/4/2010 3:01:41 PM EDT

[#31]

cuz they are ugly

Posted: 9/4/2010 4:08:58 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Any reason I wouldn't want an '04 Cayanne?

They have a Japanese automatic transmission I'm not crazy about, and they are a warmed over VW Toiletrag.

Posted: 9/4/2010 4:25:57 PM EDT

[#33]

My neighbor has 7 928's.

2 '86's
2 '87's
2 '88's
and an '89

I guess everyone needs a hobby.

Posted: 9/4/2010 4:55:06 PM EDT

[#34]

Why this is why, and Porsche was allowed to cheat and still couldn't win one.

In the three-year run of the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) Escort Endurance Championship for showroom stock road racers, Corvettes won every race. Chevrolet teams and drivers dominated, winning every championship the series offered. Morrison-Cook swept the titles in 1985, and Kim Baker’s Bakeracing Corvettes won consecutive driver and team championships in 1986 and 1987.

After witnessing this devastating display, SCCA officials concluded that the only competition for a Corvette was another Corvette. Thus the Corvette Challenge was born in 1988. Organized by John Powell and supported by Chevrolet, the Corvette Challenge pitted 50 drivers in identically prepared Corvettes racing for a $1 million purse. Bill Cooper won the inaugural Challenge championship in 1989 and Stu Hayner took the prize in 1988.

In 1990, the SCCA World Challenge arrived, but the results didn’t change: Corvettes swept the Manufacturers’ Championship two straight years, and won three consecutive driver and team titles.

Posted: 9/4/2010 6:01:23 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Why this is why, and Porsche was allowed to cheat and still couldn't win one.

In the three-year run of the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) Escort Endurance Championship for showroom stock road racers, Corvettes won every race. Chevrolet teams and drivers dominated, winning every championship the series offered. Morrison-Cook swept the titles in 1985, and Kim Baker’s Bakeracing Corvettes won consecutive driver and team championships in 1986 and 1987.

After witnessing this devastating display, SCCA officials concluded that the only competition for a Corvette was another Corvette. Thus the Corvette Challenge was born in 1988. Organized by John Powell and supported by Chevrolet, the Corvette Challenge pitted 50 drivers in identically prepared Corvettes racing for a $1 million purse. Bill Cooper won the inaugural Challenge championship in 1989 and Stu Hayner took the prize in 1988.

In 1990, the SCCA World Challenge arrived, but the results didn’t change: Corvettes swept the Manufacturers’ Championship two straight years, and won three consecutive driver and team titles.

??? WTF does this have to do with anything?
The Escort Series was specifically designed to NOT be for Porsches, which were doing quite well in other SCCA venues (like Trans-Am).
The 911 wasn't even legal for 6 seasons, and people like Kelly Moss ran 968s against the Corvettes.

And there was also a 944 Turbo only series, which was an international series.

Seriously, trying to argue that ANY production car is a more successful racecar than a 911 is idiotic.

Posted: 9/4/2010 6:10:52 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Nobody wants them...

I want a 928!

I was a kid when my dad had 356's, and they were just releasing the 911. I hated the 911, it was just too weird. We used to make all the 'local' races, Nelson Ledges, Watkins Glen, Summit Point. A lot of the guys in the SCCA weren't happy, and I'm sure that was a big reason for my displeasure.

That said, the 928S was the first model after the 911 came out that made my pants tight.

I remember seeing ads for 356s for $6000 or so about 30 years ago.

Posted: 9/4/2010 6:18:20 PM EDT

[#37]

Chick cars...guys that drive them = gay...

Posted: 9/4/2010 6:23:04 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Chick cars...guys that drive them = gay...

Son, I am disappoint.

Posted: 9/4/2010 6:37:59 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why this is why, and Porsche was allowed to cheat and still couldn't win one.

In the three-year run of the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) Escort Endurance Championship for showroom stock road racers, Corvettes won every race. Chevrolet teams and drivers dominated, winning every championship the series offered. Morrison-Cook swept the titles in 1985, and Kim Baker’s Bakeracing Corvettes won consecutive driver and team championships in 1986 and 1987.

After witnessing this devastating display, SCCA officials concluded that the only competition for a Corvette was another Corvette. Thus the Corvette Challenge was born in 1988. Organized by John Powell and supported by Chevrolet, the Corvette Challenge pitted 50 drivers in identically prepared Corvettes racing for a $1 million purse. Bill Cooper won the inaugural Challenge championship in 1989 and Stu Hayner took the prize in 1988.

In 1990, the SCCA World Challenge arrived, but the results didn’t change: Corvettes swept the Manufacturers’ Championship two straight years, and won three consecutive driver and team titles.

??? WTF does this have to do with anything?
The Escort Series was specifically designed to NOT be for Porsches, which were doing quite well in other SCCA venues (like Trans-Am).
The 911 wasn't even legal for 6 seasons, and people like Kelly Moss ran 968s against the Corvettes.

And there was also a 944 Turbo only series, which was an international series.

Seriously, trying to argue that ANY production car is a more successful racecar than a 911 is idiotic.

The car to beat in that series according to the motor press at the time was the 944 turbo. I count several 944's

Posted: 9/4/2010 7:34:57 PM EDT

[#40]

This is what you need. Plenty of speed. Dripping wet sexy lines. Great reliability. 0-60 in 5.2 stock. Aluminum body and suspension. 8000 rpm redline. Get your oil changed at the honda dealer for $39.95. Tons of performance mods.

Acura NSX

Posted: 9/5/2010 5:58:26 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
My neighbor has 7 928's.

2 '86's
2 '87's
2 '88's
and an '89

I guess everyone needs a hobby.

His name wouldn't be Gerry would it?

Posted: 9/5/2010 6:53:44 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My neighbor has 7 928's.

2 '86's
2 '87's
2 '88's
and an '89

I guess everyone needs a hobby.

His name wouldn't be Gerry would it?

Why yes, it would.

Posted: 9/5/2010 7:06:13 AM EDT

[#43]

Ah, got it.
The 951s were hamstrung by the SCCAs retarded turbo rules of the time, which got better (sort of) until completely rewritten in 2000. I was on the committee that wrote the new rules.
Having said that, the EscortChallenge rules were written to make the 911 uncompetitive. The 951 wasn't, particularly, despite generally taking poll in every event, as evidenced by your photo, and the Corvettes, with an extra 3.2 liters of displacement with the same legal minimum weight, dominated.
Now, mind you, the 944/951 actually had a long, distinguished career in international racing, something that was not true of the C4.

The 928 raced exactly twice. Bonus points for what races. And even more for the chassis number. (I owned it's sister- same day, same color, chassis number 3 different.)

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why this is why, and Porsche was allowed to cheat and still couldn't win one.

In the three-year run of the Sport Car Club of America (SCCA) Escort Endurance Championship for showroom stock road racers, Corvettes won every race. Chevrolet teams and drivers dominated, winning every championship the series offered. Morrison-Cook swept the titles in 1985, and Kim Baker’s Bakeracing Corvettes won consecutive driver and team championships in 1986 and 1987.

After witnessing this devastating display, SCCA officials concluded that the only competition for a Corvette was another Corvette. Thus the Corvette Challenge was born in 1988. Organized by John Powell and supported by Chevrolet, the Corvette Challenge pitted 50 drivers in identically prepared Corvettes racing for a $1 million purse. Bill Cooper won the inaugural Challenge championship in 1989 and Stu Hayner took the prize in 1988.

In 1990, the SCCA World Challenge arrived, but the results didn’t change: Corvettes swept the Manufacturers’ Championship two straight years, and won three consecutive driver and team titles.

??? WTF does this have to do with anything?
The Escort Series was specifically designed to NOT be for Porsches, which were doing quite well in other SCCA venues (like Trans-Am).
The 911 wasn't even legal for 6 seasons, and people like Kelly Moss ran 968s against the Corvettes.

And there was also a 944 Turbo only series, which was an international series.

Seriously, trying to argue that ANY production car is a more successful racecar than a 911 is idiotic.

The car to beat in that series according to the motor press at the time was the 944 turbo. I count several 944's

http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p188/patfeb14/96%20LT4/139290760_W7MhE-L.jpg

Posted: 9/5/2010 7:19:26 AM EDT

[#44]

Heh, When he gets back in town, tell him to call Sean. :) He's due to get one of those back in here. The one with the split oil cooler lines.

Quoted:

Quoted:
My neighbor has 7 928's.

2 '86's
2 '87's
2 '88's
and an '89

I guess everyone needs a hobby.

His name wouldn't be Gerry would it?

Why yes, it would.

Posted: 9/5/2010 7:56:41 AM EDT

[#45]

Now, mind you, the 944/951 actually had a long, distinguished career in international racing, something that was not true of the C4.

From Corvette racers point of view at the time,

"Porsche had developed the 944 Turbo as a serious race car for European competition. For the SCCA Showroom Stock Series, the company was only mildly constrained by the rules. It brought whatever it needed to the track, whether it was in production, about to be produced, or experimental."

"SCCA bent over backward trying to help Porsche get into the winner’s circle."

It is in Porsche's financial interest to support international racing. As a manufacturer Chevrolet never really directly supported anyone 100% in that venue. Closest was the running of some Callaway Corvettes in the mid 1990's

But if you want to talk 911 I don't think the 911 is doing to well here in classes like T1.

Posted: 9/5/2010 8:52:50 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Now, mind you, the 944/951 actually had a long, distinguished career in international racing, something that was not true of the C4.

From Corvette racers point of view at the time,

"Porsche had developed the 944 Turbo as a serious race car for European competition. For the SCCA Showroom Stock Series, the company was only mildly constrained by the rules. It brought whatever it needed to the track, whether it was in production, about to be produced, or experimental."

"SCCA bent over backward trying to help Porsche get into the winner’s circle."

It is in Porsche's financial interest to support international racing. As a manufacturer Chevrolet never really directly supported anyone 100% in that venue. Closest was the running of some Callaway Corvettes in the mid 1990's

But if you want to talk 911 I don't think the 911 is doing to well here in classes like T1.

Agreed. But as a Porsche racer, at the time, I can tell you that the SCCA biased the rules well. The SCCA (which I have been a member of for 30 years, served on the BoD, and worked for) knows where it's bread is buttered. All one has to do is follow the money.
The rules, at the time, specifically precluded the 911 by the engine location rule, applied a 1.7x multiplier for displacement for forced induction cars, and did not allow for the boost to be increased by any means other than that which was present from the factory.

And as to the Corvette vs 911 argument for T1, here's the notes from the 2010 GCR:

C6 T1 Suspension kit and Z51 option allowed. Floor may be modi¬fied to facilitate installation of cage mounting plates. This max. tire su- persedes TCS 9.1.10.D.7.b. Removable roof panel shall be installed. The following parts are allowed: GM oil pan #12630477, GM power steering cooler # 15925777, GM radiator # 25999103, GM radiator baffle # 25953429 (LS3 only), GM engine oil coolers (2) #15803358, Ron Davis Radiator, part #1-16CV0500, Fan shroud Phoenix part # 1005422, Canton Accusump part # CA24006 or # CA24024, along with Elec¬tric solenoid W/ epc # CA24273, Accusump Check Valve # CA2428, and Wheel to Wheel Adapter block # 0760-50001, and re- lated hoses and mounting brackets, GM trans. cooler part # 12480080 and B&M differential cooler part #70298, Doug Rippie Motorsports brake duct kit # 12-101, 180 degree thermostat Hypertech # 1015 Lingenfelter Performance Engineering #L310055204 thermostat (LS2 only), Earls oil cooler part # 619 Setrab (19 row), HD oil pressure shim Phoenix part # 1005421, Brake duct holder kit Phoenix #C6BBDH001. Wrapping of tie-rod ends to shield heat is permitted. Trimming of the lower edge of the center of the air dam is allowed up to a depth of 3.9 cm. ARE dry sump system part #3021 S permitted. ARE dry sump system part numbers 3021-S. The following parts are approved: mount w/tensioner & spacer #3020YM, serpentine belt #4032S, pul- ley #4SERP, oil tank #7030, tank bracket #7000, breather catch can # 7100, filter adapter #4010, damper assembly #8005. The oil tank shall be installed in the current battery location and the battery must be relocated to the same location as the 08 Corvette Z06. GM battery mounting bracket and hardware must be used. Alternate wheel bear- ings SKF Part # BAR 5049C permitted. C6 LS2 may upgrade to the Grand Sport brakes with no weight penalty.

And here's the Porsche allowances:

But there's no favoritism there. Mind you, the only really differences between a T1 and a T2 996 are the tire sizes, GT3 not-withstanding.

After having been CC for a World Challenge Team for a year, and a Pro-Racing and Pro-Rally Scrutineer - I can assure you, I'm much happier NASA.

Edit: The attitude from the SCCA (in my experience) has always been antagonistic to Porsche, as there still is an over-riding sense that Porsche killed Can-Am. And Showroom Stock is not the same as Escort Challenge - that's Club vs. Pro.

Posted: 9/5/2010 9:03:53 AM EDT

[#47]

If I remember part of those rules written to exclude the 911 was to limit cost of the cars run in that series, the 944 was the Corvettes chief sales competitor at the time.

The pathetic 240hp V8's at the time was no match for the 911 turbo series.

Posted: 9/5/2010 9:06:22 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
If I remember part of those rules written to exclude the 911 was to limit cost of the cars run in that series, the 944 was the Corvettes chief sales competitor at the time.

The pathetic 240hp V8's at the time was no match for the 911 turbo series.

Yup.
It was pretty funny - but nowhere near as funny as the convolutions the SCCA went through to get the Audis out of Trans-Am at the time.

Posted: 9/5/2010 9:07:19 AM EDT

[#49]

Edit: The attitude from the SCCA (in my experience) has always been antagonistic to Porsche, as there still is an over-riding sense that Porsche killed Can-Am.

Seriously? Porsche did go insane with the 917. Its a shame Can Am died.

Posted: 9/5/2010 10:38:53 AM EDT

[#50]

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why are Porsche 944's and 928's so inexpensive? (Page 3 of 4)

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