The grocery store also sells at a much much higher gross margin than dealerships and there's no negotiating at the grocery store either.  It sounds to mean that you are willing to pay MSRP for a vehicle because that's how your logic works


Doc fees cannot be negotiated because it is against the law to charge a person one amount and another person a different amount.  It's called a multi-million dollar class action lawsuit and I don't know of a single company that asks their customers to sue them out of existence.

It's just one of the reasons people know jackshit about what they think they know about car dealerships and are proud to put their ignorance on display for everyone to see

You might want to check how you spelled doc in the title.  

Krogers, Publix, and Walmart haven't lobbied for 50+ years in many states to keep direct to consumer grocery sales away either though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes

What's your point, aside from the fact that you don't have one

Stop with your logic.  This is GD, they're all StEaLeRsHiPs

Ahhh yes the poor beleaguered car dealership owner. Maybe you can lobby for some minimum gross and net margin requirements too.

It's a scary world out there when you can't control all the information to a consumer base anymore.

Then don't buy the vehicle or tell them you'll buy the vehicle at MSRP minus the accessories you don't want.  It is not your dealership or inventory to dictate terms

Oh please please tell me how that is fraud

And Georgia processes that paperwork with magical unicorns that work for free?

People like this are more common than you would ever believe

Any dealer that says they MUST charge you a fee is to be viewed as suspicious.  For the last two cars I've bought from dealers (new and used) I didn't pay any documentation fees.  This includes both big dealers and small mom & pop outfits.  

If your dealer is feeding you that line, you need to fire them and find another dealer who understands the basic concept that everything is negotiable.  You negotiate a OTD fee and that's the price you pay.  

For the dealer apologists, here's my cards on the table (redacted):  

1. New Car - 2013 Infiniti G37 purchased in 2012.

Summary:
- MSRP ~$48k
- Negotiated OTD price down to just under ~$42,000
- Only "fee" was $10 for a paper tag (which was fully disclosed during negotiations)

Window sticker showing MSRP:

Attached File


Dealer bill of sale :

Attached File


This was a big dealer, with other auto franchises in the state.  Note the sole "fee" is the $10 paper tag fee, and how they "zeroed" out the former "messenger fee" by netting $-60 against the former $60 fee.  This dealer was straightforward and willing to deal, especially as this was in late December when you know all dealers are looking to hit year end numbers.  Use your leverage!

2.  Used car - 2014 Subaru Outback purchased in 2021

- Asking price: ~$17k
- Negotiated OTD price:  $15,500
- Fees:  $0

Dealer bill of sale:

Attached File


This dealer was a small mom & pop operation.  In fact I saw the kids running around the office when I picked up the car.    Again straightforward deal with no BS.  In this case my leverage was MUCH less because of the used car situation during the pandemic, but again if you find the right people at the dealership you will come away happy.  

To be clear, this meant that I had to go to the local auto tag place and pay TTL to make things square with the state.  (The new car was purchased in a state that doesn't charge sales tax.)  However, you're not going to get slammed for a $599 processing fee at your local auto tags place.  You can also go to your AAA office (if you are a member) and they will do the notary and everything for you.  

I'm sure someone will be along to tell me that I paid the documentation fee packed away in the total price.  That may be true, but it doesn't matter, because if you're happy with the OTD price they can call it a "raw herring food fee for the penguin" fee for all I care.  

If you're finding  a dealer that tries to hit you with additional fees after negotiating a OTD price, walk away.  There are other dealers, big and small, who will be up front and negotiate true OTD pricing.  

So make the doc fee $1. Or $0.01. Again, there’s no legitimate reason for a doc fee, except to reduce the advertised price of the vehicle because you know you’re charging it separately.

The $150 (or whatever it is), is getting paid either way. But an auto dealership is one of the only industries that advertises a price and then raises that price just to complete the transaction.

Anti-discrimination laws

So we agree that you don't have a point and are just crying.  Got it

Lol derp.

No you're right, paying the officer workers salaries is not legitimate.  They should be forced to work for free

I'm sorry your decades of information asymmetry have been ruined by the internet.

You can't or are unable to cost that into your price? Everyone else in the known business universe understands factoring in recurring and non-recurring costs into a price.

In Michigan the doc fee goes to the state for the dealer services section at the dmv. Buying privately disqualifies you from using these services and are not charged (obviously). All dealership auto sales are required to charge this fee. Ymmv by state.

My local dealer has great dock fees. I saved a fortune by paying through them. Great location too.   YMMV

Is it tied up to a slip at the marina?

three seconds above your post.

How do you not get this? No one is saying they should work for free. We’re all saying you shouldn’t tack it on top of the advertised price of the vehicle. If you advertise a car for $10,000, that price should include the entire vehicle and the process required to complete the purchase.

Do you have a janitorial fee for the guy that mops the floors at your dealership, or does he work for free? Do you have an electric bill fee? Is your salesman’s commission a separate line item that’s added on top of the vehicle price? Does someone buy a car and you say “well it was $10,000 but if you want tires on it, they’ll be an extra $1000.” Of course not.

You don’t charge a fee for every other overhead charge, so why charge one for processing the paperwork that is literally required to buy a car? Why is that price not included in the fee of the car? And if you’re required to charge some amount, as you claim, why is it not an insignificant number like one penny?

I’ll say it again: the only reason that dealers have a doc fee is so they can reduce the advertised price of the car and then tack on their added costs later after the customer is hooked.

I agree with you -- however, there are some states that charge tire fees.  Everyone should be warned that dealers will try to take advantage of buyers with non-legitimate (and some legitimate) fees.  

Check out this bill of sale I was using during negotiations recently for the purchase of a used Subaru:

Attached File


My take on the NJ state $1.50/tire fee was that it was so small it couldn't have been the typical dealer sham fee.  If it was the usual profit padding, they would have asked for a lot more than $1.50!  

As further points of interest on dealer fee shenanigans:

- Note how this dealer tried to tack on a $595 documentation fee AND a $150 title processing fee (parts in green).  Sounds like the same thing to me, right?  So not only could your local auto tag place do it for much less, they won't double charge you for basically a TTL transaction ....

- $450 for nitrogen in your tires! They struck that one out quickly, haha.  I prefer the standard 71% nitrogen blend that's available for free.  

- $399 for a "white glove" detail.    Being that I'm an AutoGeek afficionado I actually don't mind paying decent money for a good detail job.  However, $399 will get you much more elsewhere -- hell, that will normally get you a real wash, clay/decon and 2-stage polish from an AutoGeek "approved" detailer.  They struck this one out quickly as well.  

I didn't end up going with this dealer (for obvious reasons).  The message is clear - beware of the fees that dealers will try to push on you!

Lol no they don’t, not in the least.

Hotels, phone companies, internet companies, cable companies, restaurants, food delivery, utility companies, banks, hospitals, doctor's offices, every single online retailer that charges shipping.

Nearly the entire economy charges a service fee, convenience fee, surcharge, process & handling, etc fee on top of their advertised price.  The only reason GD doesn't cry about those is because the bad man at the dealership touched them

You must be out of state from the dealer for the Infiniti purchase. Temp Tags are free, In Transit cost the dealer 10 or 15 bucks. As for the doc, if they want to risk fines buy not charging one that is on them.  If they are audited and you weren't charged but other customers that is a big fine, and that is fact. The other wierd thing is that you bought the car new, and the G's have about 3k mark up from invoice to MSRP. They obviously used rebates or dealer Cash to get the price where you bought it.  They didn't list those which is also a big No No.

As for the mom and pop one, they are using a very generic purchase agreement not even typed. Tells me they sell cars as a hobby.  Probably don't have a staff.

How do you not understand that literally every time you have seen a vehicle advertised by a dealership online, tv, radio, print, or smoke signal, that dealership has their doc fee right there in the advertisement of the price.


If you are surprised by a doc fee at a dealership, it lies solely on your own ignorance rather than anything remotely to do with the dealership

Having retired from the car business, I no longer really have a dog in this hunt. That said, I've seen the reluctance of dealers over the year to give to give a true OTD price too often, and in my mind it is actually counterproductive. By that, I mean it shows weakness on the dealerships part.  

People have to know what they are paying. When I was on the desk, every deal I sent out had had a full breakdown. Price, sales tax, plates and docs. Showing every number. But I didn't give them that number on the back of a business card to shop me. It was on a foursquare in blue sharpie. In a salesmans office.

2011 Belchfire .. 15550
State sales tax.. 1550
Plates . 350
Doc.. 150

OTD .. 17600

Now the customer has a price, and it's MY price. Ask them to buy it for that, or get to negotiating. Show the car on your feet, talk price in the seat. Anything else is just so much BS. The old school ways still work today, but dealerships and customers alike what to re-invent the wheel instead of selling and buying cars.

I'm sorry less people are falling for your bullshit these days and shopping elsewhere. My heart bleeds for you and your kind.

Business is great because bullshit never leaves my mouth.  Customers know they get 100% facts and great service so you should head over to the hospital for your bleeding heart and not forget to pay the surcharge at the bottom of your bill

Shipping and taxes are dynamic and based on the price, size, weight, etc. It varies per transaction based on the terms of the purchase.

A doc fee is a line item for the labor and fees that are required for every vehicle. Not the same as shipping or taxes. The paperwork is the same to transfer a $10k as a $150k car.

Service fees, convenience fees, etc. They’re the same as doc fees and people complain about them all the time. You’ve never seen a complaint about added fees? You sure you want to compare yourself to those businesses?

If I buy concert tickets, the price should be the price, I shouldn’t have to pay a “convenience fee” or a “service fee” just to pad Ticketmaster because they want to advertise a lower price. If I book a hotel, I shouldn’t have to pay a “resort fee” just because they want to say the room only costs $99 a night. And car dealers shouldn’t charge a doc fee just so they can knock $150 off the cars advertised price.

This 4 square? You are truly a salesman of the people.
https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/
http://www.realcartips.com/cardealers/211-4-square-method.shtml
https://www.centerforperformanceimprovement.com/teds-playbook/2019/3/2/the-four-square-technique-gives-the-retail-car-industry-a-bad-name
https://axleaddict.com/auto-sales/How-To-Use-The-Four-Square-System-To-Sell-Cars
https://wheelscene.com/four-square-car-sales/
https://themilitarywallet.com/how-to-negotiate-new-car-price/
https://www.edmunds.com/car-loan/four-square-basics.html
https://www.usedcars.com/advice/car-buying/conquering-the-car-dealer-four-squares-3349/

Someone here might confirm this but I bet it has to do more with commission. Commission is based on the actual price of the vehicle and all the other fees go to the dealer. Dealers don't want to pay commission on doc fees or other expenses. So sone dealers won't budge on the doc fee no matter what. Did I get this right?

Oh look, the monthly “car dealership is a scam” thread. Time to read all these expert buyers telling us how they get all the best deals and tell the dealer off while doing it.

What Arizona law requires you to charge a document fee? 44-281 allows you to charge one, but does not require it.

Applying some critical thinking, and including some comments from other replies, it's entirely possible that they want to account for costs related to a specific vehicle by giving them individual itemization in their record for that vehicle. Car-x internal cost = acquisition + shipping + refurb + paperwork processing + test drive gas + ...

It's when some of those costs are shaved off the advertised "price of the car" and presented as add-ons in the fine print that we are justified in being cranky.

But what are the kickbacks you get from lenders and/or whatever other incentives from the manufacturer your dealership gets for selling X amount of vehicles per month/quarter/year?

Ive had to process 13 titles once, and it takes for freaking ever. MVD workers here move like old people fuck.

No.

The problem is that fees can vary greatly. In state vs out of state, also even fees vary within a state depending on where you live.  Vehciles price and doc is what dealers are responsible for. The Taxes fees and registration are government which dealers have nothing to do with. A dealer can calculate the fees, just have to ask for the break down and they will tell you.  I have no idea what they tax and registration are in California. A California resident gets me the sale price and doc fee. They get the title and take care of the rest.

Heck new car incentives vary by regions. There may be a extra 500 for the St Louis region vs Chicago region. But if my resdential zip is in Chicago and I buy the vehicle in St Louis region I don't get the extra 500.

People that complain about a Doc fee are literally some of the most retarded fucking people on planet Earth. Doc fee, my lunch fee, a fuck you because your a dumb motherfucker and have a bulldozer for a wife fee, it dont matter. Out...the...door...price is all that matters. I’ve had stupid dumb cocksuckers that were probably brought into this world through a mixture of alcohol and inbreeding leave the dealership over doc fees to go buy somewhere else that cost them more overall because “ya’ll are playin games trying to screw me!!!!!” Fucking cry-baby loser inbred grown men will turn into a fucking loser bitch over $150 standard fee (that everyone charges) when buying a $50,000 truck. Its ridiculous. Probably because their loser toothless uncle/grand-daddy (who hasn't bought a car in 40 years) tells them they are getting fucked if they pay any fees. Idiots.

You make yourself look more foolish with every post in this thread. You have no idea what you are talking about.

I am currently in the market for a replacement vehicle as I nurse my 20 year old vehicle along waiting to find the model I want. It will be a certified vehicle and I will be paying cash. Here in New York, there are the government mandated fees of tax, title and registration. After that it is what the dealership can get away with. If they tell me I can have the vehicle for $xx,xxx and then tell me it will be plus $yyy in add-on fees unrelated to the three I mentioned then the $xx,xxx is not the price we agreed on. Plain and simple. The "overhead" (lights, heat, water, property tax, salaries, etc.) come out of the sale price just like any other business. As others have noted, I do not check out at the supermarket and then get handed an extra $5 charge called "cashier fee". If the dealership cannot make a profit on the price they quote that is on them to get their act together. Of course the idea of low-balling the price is to make the deal look better than what another dealer is giving you until you find out that they too would do the exact same thing.

You miss the point.

I’ve been selling shit in 250,000 sq ft warehouses for decades and I have a price plus tax.

Buy lumber? The price on the rack plus tax.

Buy a $7,000 zero turn mower? The price on the mower plus tax. I’ll register the warranty for you and not charge a fee, my profit is in the retail price.

Buy a $4,000 trailer? The price on the trailer plus tax. I don’t charge a fee because a title is involved.

Want me to build you a deck for $5,000? I don’t charge $5,000 plus a $50 fee because I have to go pull a permit, it’s all built into the $5,000.

Selling something for a price and then adding fees is bullshit. I get it, it’s “standard in the industry”.

Do you get why people don’t have trust in your industry?

I love the dealer butthurt in these threads. It's delicious.

Anti-discrimination

build it in the price or get that shit out of here.

I'll never forget my experience buying the first and only new vehicle. It was a sweet new Ninja 650 and I had all my hard earned money ready to go.

I get to the final details and suddenly it's 700 bucks more then I had been told. I ask and they inform me it's a fucking "unboxing fee" to get it off the shelf.

I ask for the one that I was shown not on the shelf and get told they charge it for all bikes.

I went to a different dealership and paid almost 1k less for a fucking newer bike. Last time I ever went to a bike specific dealership instead of a regular car dealership that had bikes as well.

That's exactly how it works in WA. No commission paid on doc fees. It's not gross.

You don’t get it either, huh?

Ultimately, when you get right down to it, I am not really buying a vehicle.  I am buying the piece of paper, the title that says I own that vehicle.

The sticker price today might be $50,000, but 60 months from now, I will have shelled a total of $65,000 to get that title in my name and in my hand.

Let’s say in another example my car payment is $500 per month.

Forgetting about the current scamdemic and the run on all things guns and ammo for just a minute, let’s say a Glock costs $500.

You do understand the concept of “opportunity cost”, right?

So for 60 months I am giving up on buying a new Glock each month.


As a side note, the last time I went to a dealer and was getting ready to buy a car, I saw the finance guy literally cringe when I pulled a for real calculator out of my pocket and punched in what he stated the monthly payment  would be and punched in X 60 .

My job is to limit the number of hands reaching into my pocket and the amount each hand pulls out.

So to be clear, there is no law that requires you to charge a document fee; only a law that requires you charge every customer the same fee if you charge anything?

Last September when we bought the Raptor, they dealership had agreed upon price (6.5 under MSRP), a 135 dollar doc fee and that was it. Nothing more added on. Most painless car deal I have ever been a part of period.