Quoted: If you are a cop and you have taken a gun off a person for no reason other than it was against your local laws, then you are a bag of anti-gun-puck-sucking-shit in my book.  If you have ever said to a person if you have nothing to hide then why can't I search your car?  Then you are a piece of shit who is mad with power. Nuff said, and I am glad we don't have cops like this in Huckleberryville.

Never seen that side of you Dave.
I like it, and I agree.

Quoted: Quoted: There are 2 major camps.  Most of us are pro LEO and like LEOs and the job they are doing.  Even if we get a ticket if we were in the wrong, we accept it.  Then there are the others of us that have a serious problem with being told what to do and any authroity figure.  Basically conservatives and libritarians.   But I think most of us are Pro-Leo.  But the anti-LEOs are stoutly anti-LEO. That's an oversimplification. It's not black and white, haters and lovers. There are those of us who respect and admire LEO's and the job they do. However, we despise those that use their badges to harass, commit crimes, or willfully ignore the laws and consititution they SWORE to protect. For people like me, those cops are worthy of alot of venom, because they not only violate the public's trust, but give the good ones a bad name.

That's exactly where I stand. I have HUGE respect for those that chose to serve, but I also have HUGE disrespect to the point of hatred for those that abuse the power that WE GIVE THEM.

I'm also not a big fan of what the War on Drugs as done to the police. The militarization of Law enforcement has forced many good cops into a bad place, and many citizens into a lack of faith that their civil rights are not on the chopping block.

Quoted: There could be the latent fear by many that if an oppressive government comes to power the police will be enforcing the will of that government. In fact we have seen LEOs that have done terrible things at the behest of their superiors. Just last year in fact there was the confiscation of legally owned firearms in New Orleans.

Guess memories are short.

Its also the fact that cops from other states with severe firearms ownership restrictions ( i.e. california)were responsible for carrying out the confiscations. Kind of like hired guns to do the dirty work of the NO police chief. A  police officer from i believe NO or some other place in Lousiana wrote a comment to the American Rifleman explaining that the mentality of those out of state cops was that ANY civilian firearms ownership was illegal. He said that he had to brief them otherwise.

Then there was this little gem.

media.putfile.com/neworleanspolicebeating96

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=445878

Stuff like this...

Some of it grew here during the assault weapons ban when they took it out on us for not having the high cap mags that we had. I replied on a thread once about why a cop needs a high cap mag because:

-we can't shoot straight
-our lives are worth more than theirs
-we are part of the government plot to seize their weapons and thus, need more firepower than the citizens,
-blah blah blah, etc etc etc

I also think this is a safe place that you can say something about a cop that they would never say face to face.

That is good to hear - to be honest, that is prolly what causes 99% of the "cop bashing" on here. The fear of weapons confiscation really strikes fear into the heart of gun owners, especially with the events in New Orleans. That is what I assume as well, although it seems the comment is mainly directed at the ATF, who seems to have a much worse track record on such issues. People also (for good or for ill) worry about the militarization of police. There is also...resentment, since LE is exempt from most local gun laws. During the AWB, LE could still acquire new no-ban rifles, while Citizens could not. The exemptions are on the books in other states as well, like Kali. The CCW thing is also a sore spot - many, many Citizen gun groups got behind nationwide reciprocity for LE CCW, with the understanding that they would return the favor. I'm hoping I am laying out the reasons for people's feelings in a rational manner, without things getting "bashy."

Well said.

Hello pdsarge. I was going to inquire on your stance on the 2nd A, but you just answered. That being said, I have a couple of good friends who are police. One owns a gun shop/shooting range, the other is his right hand guy working for him at the range. They have a "no loaded guns in the store" policy, but I'm honored and proud that I'm one of the ones they'd like to be armed in the store if trouble ever occurred. I've found the police in general in the Central Indiana area to be very professional, and I've not met any who are anti 2nd Amendment for regular folks.

I'd like to think if a situation ever happened where the government decided to become more opressive and began ordering round ups of law abiding citizens guns, that many of these men and women would refuse to obey and help get the opressors out of power.

It so saddens me to see NYC, Boston, Chicago, and others get away with trampling on our gun rights. Everyone has the God given right to be able to defend themselves. We should not have to run from evil or be non-resistant to it, as the left would love for us to be. I cannot fathom why leftists want people to be easy prey for criminals.

Ill tell you why in a few short points.

1) The asshole cops that give you all a bad name stick out.

2) Arfcom has people that are ferociously independent and dont want the help or hinderence of the police.

3) Arfcome has people who are distrustful of the government. They see the police as the enforcing arm of laws they dont agree with. They also see the police as enforcers of a corrupt government.

4) Too many cops feel that citizens shouldnt own guns - and thus are "better" than us.

5) Finally, too many cops know SHIT about guns and these uber tactical armchair rangers feel frustrated that these "newbs" arent doing their trade justice. Or they are upset they dont get to CCW, when they could stop the next wacko at a Dennys, while officer Fife barely knows how to decock his glock.

6) Bonus - too many dead dogs by blood thirsty cops.



PS - I know glocks dont have a decocker - thats part of the joke.

I find the "Blue Wall" act to be a bit tiresome - by and large, the LEOs here are great guys, and people I'm proud to call fellow Americans - BUT, there are a couple here that will blindly defend the actions of ANY LEO, regardless of whether they're right or wrong - and I have little patience for that sort of thing...



  - georgestrings

I think it boils down to some people just don't like authority figures.

You have some cops do bad things. They should be punished.

But you also have a lot of misunderstanding about basic laws. The guys here can quote every gun law but not know the difference between assualt and murder, etc.

You even have some here who think drunks should not be arrested until they actually hit and kill someone.

Some think just becaue a cop is not a gun person they are bad.

It varies so much you can't put your finger on any one issue.

In my experience, about 15-20% of the cops I have encountered were assholes. I think this percentage is on par with the population in general. The difference is, you are not required by law to take shit from a mechanic, doctor, or barber who is an asshole. Most of the time when you encounter an asshole, you can tell them to fuck off, simply to walk away, or choose avoid them. Not true with cops who happen to be assholes

cop-bashers are scum-bag criminals or they just got busted for doing 63 in a school zone

Nice discussion tactic.  So if someone disagrees with you they're either a "scum-bag criminal" or someone that endangers children.z

Quoted: There are 2 major camps.  Most of us are pro LEO and like LEOs and the job they are doing.  Even if we get a ticket if we were in the wrong, we accept it.  Then there are the others of us that have a serious problem with being told what to do and any authroity figure.  Basically conservatives and libritarians.   But I think most of us are Pro-Leo.  But the anti-LEOs are stoutly anti-LEO.

Some of us are generally pro-LEO, but we recognize that there are always some who are

A) drunk on power

B) got into the job so that they could use the power

C) unfamiliar (and sometimes uninterested) in the limits on said power

D) possessed of that "us vs. them" mentality.

A few bad apples, as the saying goes.

For example, have you seen the video of the Los Angeles PD officer taking down New Orleans resident Patricia Konie with a body-block so that he could take her .38 and then evict her from her home?  With no authority, and no warrant?

That kind of cop pisses some of us off.

However, people like Lawdog and David Copperfield we like.

I'll offer a few reasons:

Truly Bad Apples: Yes they are the minority but the have a disproportionate impact.  I know the police hate these guys as much as anyone.

Small, Casual Abuses of Power:  Authority is intoxicating and sometimes it leads people to adopt almost a bully persona without even knowing it.  Not uncommon. One sees it with school teachers, ministers, and the  uppity county clerk.  

Anti-2nd:  Seems like there are a lot of police who want citizens to be less prepared for bad guys than themselves. Far too many police, for example, endorsed the AWB and some want to ban civilian guns. It was irratating seeing all those LEO marked items during the ban.  My own county sherif won't sign off on class 3 weapons. He doesn't think any citizen needs one.

eta:  Having said all that, my grandfather was a Jersey City cop (very old school) so I have some love for LEO.  I am grateful and endebted to the men and women who serve and protect.  Thank you for your difficult, underappreciated, and underpaid work.  

Quoted: For many, it is still negative feelings from Waco and Ruby Ridge.

So its misplaced anger at the federal govt directed at local LE?


IMO gunowners fear persecution and as such they wrongly associate themselves with criminals even though they have more in common with cops.

The anti-LEO types on here are a small, but very vocal minority.

Quoted: I can't imagine any military style gun board without some wannabe "militia" idiots that hate all authority and long for anarchy.

10-8 Forums and Lightfighter.

Because the only time we meet cops they are enforcing bullshit laws on law abiding citizens.   Law abiding citizens get lectures from cops on road safety and get expensive tickets because the court knows law abiding citizens will pay them.  Real criminals get probation and suspended sentances if they ever get caught.  

Cops will waste a half hour trying to get me to admit to drinking or carrying illegal knives just becuase I am out past midnight, but they won't follow the trail of coolant accross the street to the apartment to find out who creamed my parked car.  

If you don't live in a trailer park and had a cop drag your abusive husband out of the house for you, the only time the average guy will meet a cop is pulled over on the side of the road or telling you they are too busy to investigate the crime committed against you.  

Cops are known to tell you all the things they could arrest you for when you tell them you aren't doing anything illegal.  

Cops support weapons bans and Democratic candidates.

Weapons bans don't apply to the police.  

Quoted: For many, it is still negative feelings from Waco and Ruby Ridge.

Ahhh Daddy's baby still traumatized????

Quoted: i think about 60% of the cops here shouldnt even get a gun and are on a huge power trip. the rest are really cool guys that  stay down to earth. with that said my dad was sherrif, mom dispatcher, cousin sherrif and about 3 good friends sherrifs. i have lots of good encounters with the law and a few that really pissed me off.  theres bad apples in any group but i think the power trip is really easy to get on wearing that shiny little badge.

I think you have that backwards;  60% of the internet commandos, drunken lawyers and Bush-can-do-no-wrong blindly following sheep on this site shouldn't even get a gun.

I've managed to have very few run-ins with police, so I have little direct experience with them to generate negative feelings.  But, if you want to know, things that I've read that pi$$ me off:
1.  The blue wall.  Recent perfect example is the Illinois cops with illegal machineguns.  Police Chief doesn't think they should be prosecuted.
2.  Some feel they are above the law.  See above.  I also have personally heard from a Sherriff's Deputy that they drive 80-90 on curvy two lane roads while going to qualify.  "It's awesome!"
3.  Botched no-knock raids that result in someone dieing over a cop's mistake.

And lest I forget, my experience with a seat belt enforcement check point.  We were on a one way street in town and everyone was slowed down.  Turns out city police were up there looking in windows to check for seat belts, no belt, pull over you're getting a ticket.  Wife and I had ours on, always do.  The first cop in the line decided he needed to look away for no apparent reason just as we're going by, we went past him and he started yelling to the second guy to stop us.  Second guy stops us (with seatbelts on and in plain view) then looks at him like "WTF?".  First cop lies (as far as I'm concerned) and says he didn't think we had ours on.  He wasn't even looking.

I won't say that I hate cops, mostly I just don't trust them.  They seem to want to charge you with anything they can come up with.

Here ya go.  Two sides of the same coin.

Quoted: Anti-2nd: Seems like there are a lot of police who want citizens to be less prepared for bad guys than themselves. Far too many police, for example, endorsed the AWB and some want to ban civilian guns. It was irratating seeing all those LEO marked items during the ban. My own county sherif won't sign off on class 3 weapons. He doesn't think any citizen needs one.

Quoted: Fourth subgoup is the universal rights lobby.  They believe that every citizen, cops or not, should have the same guns and equipment no matter what, no matter where.  They will therefore pipe up anywhere its mentioned that a cop used a rifle.  They were more fanatical during the AWB about standard capacity mags, but have toned down since that rediculous law died.  Its not that they actually care what the cops have, its that they can't stand laws that limit what they can have, even though they couldn't afford it or really want it or have a use for it, if they could have it.

yeah, that universal rights thing -- its bad.    

Quoted: If you are a cop and you have taken a gun off a person for no reason other than it was against your local laws, then you are a bag of anti-gun-puck-sucking-shit in my book.  If you have ever said to a person if you have nothing to hide then why can't I search your car?  Then you are a piece of shit who is mad with power. Nuff said, and I am glad we don't have cops like this in Huckleberryville.

"If you are a cop and you have taken a gun off a person for no reason other than it was against your local laws,....." DH

Please allow me to introduce myself-I'm a "bag of anti-gun-sucking-shit" by your definition.
It's against my local laws to be standing out of a 7-11 with a gun in your back pocket eyeing the foot traffic going in and out of the store.  I arrive on the suspicious person call, do a Terry frisk for my personal safety, find a loaded Ruger 9mm in the waistband and viola!  I've enforced a local law and put the piece of shit in jail.

Sorry I don't meet your high handed standards, but then again if you did accept me I'd have to wonder what was wrong with me.

Quoted: I think it boils down to some people American Citizens just don't like authority figures. You have some cops do bad things. They should be punished. But you also have a lot of misunderstanding about basic laws. The guys here can quote every gun law but not know the difference between assualt and murder, etc. You even have some here who think drunks should not be arrested until they actually hit and kill someone. Some think just becaue a cop is not a gun person they are bad. It varies so much you can't put your finger on any one issue.

My last encounter w/ LEO's resulted in two of them losing their jobs for ignoring my rights as a citizen.  They thought my remaining silent was the same as resisting arrest (charge dropped).  and impeding an investigation (charge dropped).  They also thought 1 pack of Sudafed for a runny nose meant that I was a meth producer and should be cuffed and thrown over the hood of a car.

I've been pulled over a dozen times for DAN (Driving at night).  The last was a cop pulling around a corner and seeing me cross an intersection that contained a stop sign.  I came into his field of vision after I had already stopped, but that didn't matter and I got a $80 ticket.  Gee, was he fishing for the DUI or drug charge?  When I tried to fight it in court I became very aware of the us vs. them mentality.  Cops = right, me = wrong.

You know very well that a good portion of the law-abiding public has had at least one experience with a bad cop, or a good cop just having a bad day.  Hell, the local county has a ton of cops screwing each other's wives so someone is always having a bad day.  Don't act surprised when we voice an opinion based on what has happened to us.  Since there is a long tradition of the "blue line" and officers protecting their own, then the entire institution will get called out.  You chose to take up the good and the bad that come with that badge.

So does this opinion put me in the "scumbag criminal" camp?

 

Quoted: Please allow me to introduce myself-I'm a "bag of anti-gun-sucking-shit"

Nice to meet you

Quoted: Last is the " Love cops, But " group.

The few from Arf that I've actually met are stand-up guys that make me rethink not going into LE 15 years ago.

I grew up in NE NJ, and while many Police officers were good guys like my father and grandfather, there were also many had the JBT powertrip, were involved in the syndicate, or had their own little scams going.  Unfortunately, I learned early that the Police were not my friends, and that they were not "here to help".  OTOH, my own interaction with cops (beat cops, SWAT guys* and deputies, but by-and large not admin, detectives or troopers*) here in the Midwest has been very positive.  

I guess for me, the "but" is the minority of asshats that should never have gotten past the psych eval, and will do their damndest to treat everyone who isn't carrying a badge as a criminal (these also tend to be the same that view the presence of a badge as a "can do no wrong" card).  LE has a difficult job.  I understand, accept, and will even tend to cut them a little slack because of it.  What I can not stand is abuse of power, the "us v. them" attitude™ , corruption, or coverup.

To answer your question, pdsarge:  I think the reason why you see some of the cop-bashing here is because of folks who ONLY see the badge, from either side of the fence.

YMMV, but I don't think it will.



Edit: *After thinking about it, my experiance with SWAT and Troopers/HP has been 50/50.

This response falls into Category 1 with a little category 3 for dramatic effect

Indeed it does, very similar posts.  I'm glad you understand.  Now you won't be shocked when I'm a smartass at the DL checkpoint.  

Quoted: I have to say, I'm a little dismayed by all the cop bashing posts I've been reading. Yes, I'm a cop, but wow, I must be missing something. Unless you guys live in Hazard County, I just don't get it. I'm a lieutenant in the biggest department in the country and I've seen and see my share of people who should not be on MY job. THe vast majority of rejects are incompetent or apathetic, not agressive cowboys. So is it the small town cops or are you guys who complain just the typical knuckleheads who think they are better, smarter (insert your favorite adjective here) or just have no clue as to what it's like to do this type of work? Please feel free to fire away... Cowards, I know you'll say something silly, but trust me, I've heard it all

In a nutshell-because there's lots of drama queens on this board just looking for reasons to be a "victim."

I suspect a lot, if not most of the cop haters hate the military too, but since this is a pro military site they don't quite have the balls to criticize soldiers, so they save their vitriol for the police.
If an article gets posted about a police dog shooting, or some other dumbass action out of an individual officer, they pounce it and use the ancecdote or incident to whine about the burgeoning police state as they see it.

Conversely, the babies ingnore any and all mishaps that occur in the military, be it the friendly fire incident that killed Pat Tillman to a story about organized gangs within the military.

There was a thread about some Illinois State Troopers that illegally obtained a fully automatic machine gun, and none of the LEO's on this site that I'm aware of supported them at all.

In summary, they hate you for what you do.  They're jealous that you can carry a weapon nationwide and they can't, they hate you because they got a ticket, and they hate you because you're doing a job most of 'em either wouldn't qualify for, or have the guts to do.

Cops take a beating like TV preachers. You never hear about the majority of preachers that are
sincere about their job, you just hear about the ones that play dingle dangle with little boys or the
ones that embezzle money. Same goes for the cops.

Quoted: Quoted: There are 2 major camps.  Most of us are pro LEO and like LEOs and the job they are doing.  Even if we get a ticket if we were in the wrong, we accept it.  Then there are the others of us that have a serious problem with being told what to do and any authroity figure.  Basically conservatives and libritarians.   But I think most of us are Pro-Leo.  But the anti-LEOs are stoutly anti-LEO. That's an oversimplification. It's not black and white, haters and lovers. There are those of us who respect and admire LEO's and the job they do. However, we despise those that use their badges to harass, commit crimes, or willfully ignore the laws and consititution they SWORE to protect. For people like me, those cops are worthy of alot of venom, because they not only violate the public's trust, but give the good ones a bad name.

Perfrect.  I greatly admire the vast majority of LEOs.  On the other hand, I despise those who break the law or even bend it a bit.  The ones who lie on the stand, who lump all of us into the one big "them" group, who abuse their authority, and who basically break the trust of the people they are sworn to protect and SERVE.

Quoted: Cops take a beating like TV preachers. You never hear about the majority of preachers that are sincere about their job, you just hear about the ones that play dingle dangle with little boys or the ones that embezzle money. Same goes for the cops.

Thank you.

Quoted: Fourth subgoup is the universal rights lobby.  They believe that every citizen, cops or not, should have the same guns and equipment no matter what, no matter where.  They will therefore pipe up anywhere its mentioned that a cop used a rifle.  They were more fanatical during the AWB about standard capacity mags, but have toned down since that rediculous law died.  Its not that they actually care what the cops have, its that they can't stand laws that limit what they can have, even though they couldn't afford it or really want it or have a use for it, if they could have it.

Actually, we do care what the cops have.  You work for the .gov, if you can have it I should be able to have it. And yes I can afford it.

The fact that you list this as a subgroup is kind of disturbing.  Do you NOT believe in universal rights? Are you somehow more American than the rest of us?

Quoted: Quoted: I think it boils down to some people American Citizens just don't like authority figures. You have some cops do bad things. They should be punished. But you also have a lot of misunderstanding about basic laws. The guys here can quote every gun law but not know the difference between assualt and murder, etc. You even have some here who think drunks should not be arrested until they actually hit and kill someone. Some think just becaue a cop is not a gun person they are bad. It varies so much you can't put your finger on any one issue.

Classic example of the them vs us attitude.

BTW I wonder what I am now. And us or them? I actually think neither.

Actually, I think that there are only a handful of true "thin blue line" types and cop bashers on this board.  What usually happens is that we have a large group of people who are very sensitive to any violation of their rights.  They will find an article about police misconduct.  This brings a response from a large contingent of cops who are hyper sensitive to any criticism of LEO.  Shitstorm ensues because neither side remembers that the whole reason the story made it into the paper is because it was the exception to the rule.  SWAT raides that don't result in loss of canine life don't make it into the news.  Things usually only become news when everything goes to shit.  

BTW, this isn't just for cops, but for anyone.  You'll never see the headline of "Lawyer ethically represents client, court reaches result fair to all sides."  But it actually does happen from time to time, its just not news.  Winning $100 million plus from spilling coffee IS news because its not the norm.  

Quoted: Quoted: My last encounter w/ LEO's resulted in two of them losing their jobs for ignoring my rights as a citizen.  They thought my remaining silent was the same as resisting arrest (charge dropped).  and impeding an investigation (charge dropped).  They also thought 1 pack of Sudafed for a runny nose meant that I was a meth producer and should be cuffed and thrown over the hood of a car. I've been pulled over a dozen times for DAN (Driving at night).  The last was a cop pulling around a corner and seeing me cross an intersection that contained a stop sign.  I came into his field of vision after I had already stopped, but that didn't matter and I got a $80 ticket.  Gee, was he fishing for the DUI or drug charge?  When I tried to fight it in court I became very aware of the us vs. them mentality.  Cops = right, me = wrong. You know very well that a good portion of the law-abiding public has had at least one experience with a bad cop, or a good cop just having a bad day.  Hell, the local county has a ton of cops screwing each other's wives so someone is always having a bad day.  Don't act surprised when we voice an opinion based on what has happened to us.  Since there is a long tradition of the "blue line" and officers protecting their own, then the entire institution will get called out.  You chose to take up the good and the bad that come with that badge. So does this opinion put me in the "scumbag criminal" camp?   Catagory 3.

The third is the I got a ticket for doing exactly what I was doing crowd. They don't like cops because they got a ticket and they think a cop might some day give another cop a break in a similar situation so they feel the need to chime in.

So I fall into the third category?  I came to a complete stop, saw the cop come around a corner over a block away and made sure that I was COMPLETLY stopped, then pulled away safely.  I didn't get a ticket for stopping, I got a ticket for failure to stop.  I guess since I don't have a badge I'm not qualified to know if I had actually stopped.  Your attitude of throwing me into a certain "category" of people that are wrong in your eyes is why I generally say "Fuck Cops".

Would that dirty bastard have pulled over a fellow officer for the same thing (stopping at a stop sign)?  I really doubt it.

Quoted: Quoted: I have to say, I'm a little dismayed by all the cop bashing posts I've been reading. Yes, I'm a cop, but wow, I must be missing something. Unless you guys live in Hazard County, I just don't get it. I'm a lieutenant in the biggest department in the country and I've seen and see my share of people who should not be on MY job. THe vast majority of rejects are incompetent or apathetic, not agressive cowboys. So is it the small town cops or are you guys who complain just the typical knuckleheads who think they are better, smarter (insert your favorite adjective here) or just have no clue as to what it's like to do this type of work? Please feel free to fire away... Cowards, I know you'll say something silly, but trust me, I've heard it all In a nutshell-because there's lots of drama queens on this board just looking for reasons to be a "victim." I suspect a lot, if not most of the cop haters hate the military too, but since this is a pro military site they don't quite have the balls to criticize soldiers, so they save their vitriol for the police. If an article gets posted about a police dog shooting, or some other dumbass action out of an individual officer, they pounce it and use the ancecdote or incident to whine about the burgeoning police state as they see it. Conversely, the babies ingnore any and all mishaps that occur in the military, be it the friendly fire incident that killed Pat Tillman to a story about organized gangs within the military. There was a thread about some Illinois State Troopers that illegally obtained a fully automatic machine gun, and none of the LEO's on this site that I'm aware of supported them at all. In summary, they hate you for what you do.  They're jealous that you can carry a weapon nationwide and they can't, they hate you because they got a ticket, and they hate you because you're doing a job most of 'em either wouldn't qualify for, or have the guts to do.

When the Army starts pulling people over at checkpoints and breaking into the homes of American citizens I'll start to worry about them too.

FWIW, many of us here who mistrust the police in general realize that many of them are good people. Yet as was mentioned earlier, I can't deal with an asshole cop the same way I'd deal with an asshole 'civilian'.

Three words....

Remember New Orleans.

Quoted: Quoted: Fourth subgoup is the universal rights lobby.  They believe that every citizen, cops or not, should have the same guns and equipment no matter what, no matter where.  They will therefore pipe up anywhere its mentioned that a cop used a rifle.  They were more fanatical during the AWB about standard capacity mags, but have toned down since that rediculous law died.  Its not that they actually care what the cops have, its that they can't stand laws that limit what they can have, even though they couldn't afford it or really want it or have a use for it, if they could have it. Actually, we do care what the cops have.  You work for the .gov, if you can have it I should be able to have it. And yes I can afford it. The fact that you list this as a subgroup is kind of disturbing.  Do you NOT believe in universal rights? Are you somehow more American than the rest of us?

The orwellian-fu is strong with shotar -- 'All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

For a cop bashing thread, this has been pretty civil.

pdsarge, the popcorn reference was stating that you were opening a can of worms that has been hashed over a million times here. Usually I am very outspoken on this subject, but thought I would just sit back and watch the fireworks. Which really didn't happen.

As for your question....this is what I have deducted from reading this site and talking to police officers I know personally.

1) People get pissed because police officers routinely enforce BLATENTLY UnConsitutional laws, and a lot of these people know better. Police officers and well as politicians SWEAR to uphold the Constitution and Bill of Rights, however, as a majority they never seem to have a problem breaking that oath. The ones that say, "I'd never do that, never seem to want to step up to the plate and arrest or go against the ones in power that do. Because these "upstanding" officers feel they will lose their job. So while a lot of officers do deserve some respect because they have earned it locally, they will always be seen akin to Nazi's hurding people into gas chambers, because they were, "Just doing their job". Yeah, the dreaded Nazi reference, but that is a strong emotion that is stirred up by the actions of police officers that break their oaths.

2) Some people don't understand how corrupt our political process is, compared to how it's "suppose" to work, and those people who are police officers will enforce that corruption. And the more people wake up in this country, the more they'll have a resentment towards police officers. Waco is an example. This thought goes along with number one, but on the other side, you have people in this country that feel that we should and could go back to some idealic way of governing according to the Constitution without any concern to real issues. Ie: the 2nd Amendment says, "shall not be infringed" and very strong supporters of the 2nd that think an instant background check is UnConstitutional. And based on "how" and "why" the Founding Fathers set up this recognition of this Right, I tend to agree. I also understand the complex issues a population has when it grows like America has and I understand why some want to have things like instant background checks. The good reasons and the bad reasons. HOWEVER, I also realize that the "general public" do not know why or care why the 2nd Amendment need to be supported, they go off of emotion and when they are scared, they will allow the taking away of a Right, as long as it doesn't seem to affect their daily life. Our general population want "others" to protect them, there is very little "personal responsibility" anymore and that's a big problem when it comes to keeping that recognition of our 2nd Amendment Right of self protection.

3) Most Americans have a VERY strong individualistic streak, even if a lot of them want someone else to protect them. They want this "perception" of safety, as long as it doesn't affect them personally. And the more the government and the police try to "push" that perception of safety onto us, while it doesn't actually exist, the more this issue of the interference and control will come up. Thus cop bashing.

4) As the population increases in this country, so will the "actual" amount of crime. So more police will be needed to investigate these crimes. The actual "percentage" of crime will probably not go up as a ratio of the number of people verses the actual number of crimes. And it might actually go down in some cases. But people will see the increase of the number of police and shutter. They don't like paying for them, especially when an economy seems to be bad and the government officals (including) police officers seem to be making a LOT more money than most. With the overtime, some police officers make out pretty well. Sure they put their lives on the line and spend a huge amount of time on the job, but when a $30,000 a year worker sees how much they pay in taxes, then sees a police officer bringing down $100,000, they get pissed. It doesn't even matter if their local police officer just makes $45,000, if this citizen heres there are police making $100,000, they'll be under the assumption that ALL of them are doing well at the expense of the citizenry. Sitting at a doughnut shop making $100,000 is a pretty good gig. It may not be correct, but that is the "perception" and perception is reality.

5) A lot of BAD events have happened, to blacken the eye of ALL LEO's. There's that perception again. A lot of people still remember things like Waco and lump ALL LEO's into that event, because the local law enforcement officers were right there with the FBI and the ATF. You didn't see one local LEO try to stop the insantity going on there. I won't go into anymore than that, but people will associate all cops with bad cops, because you don't see good cops arresting bad cops and making sure the citizens Rights are upheld. And people DO understand and see that "thin blue line". Ie. I was given a ticket speeding a couple of summers ago. I don't make a habit of speeding and this time it was my fault, because I was passed by another going faster, I was talking with my daughter and didn't realize I was speeding. But I got pulled over. The state police officer was very professional and gave me a break on the speed because I don't commit crime and have only had 2 traffic tickets (none speeding) in my 28 years of driving. I admitted my mistake and accepted responsibility for that. I don't believe speed limits are UnConstitutional. I treatd him with respect and he showed me respect back. Exactly the way it's suppose to work. But then I come onto this site and there is a story of a police officer in California who got pulled over by another officer for drunk driving. The offending officer was drunk. He had a gun under the seat of his car (where he was at in California...big no, no. LA if I remember correctly). He also was speeding at a high rate of speed. The "brother" officer let him go and told him to drive home. No ticket, no arrest for drunk driving and while I agree that a gun charge would have been, on precident, UnConstitutional, it may be a smart gun law (not having a firearm while drunk), he was still let go. I get a ticket and this asshole gets a free pass because he is a fellow police officer. THESE are the kind of situtations where ALL police officers will get a bad name. No matter "how" human the law enforcement community is, LEO's are held to a much HIGHER standard than the average citizen. As well as they should be, because they are given the ability to exert authority over the private citizen. My neighbor isn't going to come over and arrest me for whatever, however a police officer can just come into my house now and arrest me for "whatever" they want to dream up. And as long as that officer has that ability and they want respect, they better be willing to uphold our Rights more than just enforcing some UnConstitutional laws, just because they have to show they are doing their job.

6) pdsarge, and HERE'S a big one that YOU are associated with. New York City and the State of New York have some of the most blatently UnConstitutional gun laws in the Nation. Do you uphold those laws, even though you have sworn to uphold the Consitution that is in direct conflict with these laws that the legislature has passed? I vactationed at Lake George and the finger lakes this last summer, I couldn't bring my CCW pistol or my "evil" rifles because it is against your states laws and I'd have people like you arrest me just  because I wanted to exercise my 2nd Amendment Right. Do you think this is right? You may say no, however, most if not almost all of your "brothers" would arrest me, even though I never commit any crimes. THIS is why we have cop bashing. The more UnConstitutional laws that are upheld by officers, the stronger the "anti-cop" feeling will grow. The average citizen does not have a problem with police officers busting drug dealers or criminals that steal or rape, but the average citizen that understands our Rights, does have a problem with the enforcement of UnConstitutional laws. And you will get a big heaping dose of that on a site like this. Let me ask you...if I had come into your state with my CCW and my pistol and you pulled me over for some minor traffic offense, the decided to search my vehicle and found my pistol, would you arrest me?



On the other side, I would like to give an example of a police officer doing his job and gaining a lot of respect in my eyes. I don't have a link to it, but there was a video of a state trooper who gave a REAL asshole a ticket for speeding. The guy was just going off on the officer, yelling and screaming at him. The officer didn't let this asshole get to him and acted in a VERY professional and calm manner. I would have thought the trooper would have pulled the guy through the window and made him ride the lighting. I have a lot of respect for this officers self control and his professionalism on this one.

Anybody have a link? That was a great video!

Quoted: Because the only time we meet cops they are enforcing bullshit laws on law abiding citizens.   Law abiding citizens get lectures from cops on road safety and get expensive tickets because the court knows law abiding citizens will pay them.  Real criminals get probation and suspended sentances if they ever get caught.   Cops will waste a half hour trying to get me to admit to drinking or carrying illegal knives just becuase I am out past midnight, but they won't follow the trail of coolant accross the street to the apartment to find out who creamed my parked car.   If you don't live in a trailer park and had a cop drag your abusive husband out of the house for you, the only time the average guy will meet a cop is pulled over on the side of the road or telling you they are too busy to investigate the crime committed against you.

so are you saying cops are too enthusiastic in enforcing the law?  Or are you saying they are too lazy in enforcement the law? It sounds like you havent decided which yet...

Years ago my buddy (USMC) and I were driving along in NYC . Joe was driving as he's "from the city" . So we stopped quicky at a red light and a friggin city bus rear ends us I jumped out of the passengers door and went to a cop standing there .

He looked at my NC licence plate and said "You're in NY city boy you gotta drive like it /red] "

Also while gunsmithing in Indiana they'd come in the the shop where I worked and just yuck it up about their latest bust .

Then as of Often as not they'd show each other their "throw guns"  "drop knifes" ect ..

Alot lot of "things" clicked into place in those early years .

As you are a good honest cop you may not know anything about drop guns . Thats when a cop uses an old Sat. speical to ...." to throw down" next to a person (usualy deceased) . Then when all his buddies get there , WELL GOLLIE  look everyone the SOB had a gun !

Thats the jist of it , as far as "drop knives" well believe it or not those work just as good for the same reason . honest cops Har Har .

Indiana has some dirty little secerets . It makes Charlotte N.C. where I grew up in the 60's look like a hub of equal treatment and scocial understanding . So maybe everywhere but Indiana is good cops who know nothing of "drop guns" ?

1.   Documented cases of abuse

2.   Personal experiences

3.   Police Academies teaching the US-vs-Them attitude (my BIL's did)

4.   Stupid laws like artificially low speed limits

5.   Excessive emphasis on revenue collection

6.   Excessive enforcement of petty rules

7.   Excessive use of Situational Domination   (why do they slam folks on the ground and shove a knee in their spine when they are cooperating on COPS?)

8.   "above the law" attitude  (I've seen it 1st hand w/the BIL & others)

Originallly posted by lippo 3) Most Americans have a VERY strong individualistic streak, even if a lot of them want someone else to protect them. They want this "perception" of safety, as long as it doesn't affect them personally. And the more the government and the police try to "push" that perception of safety onto us, while it doesn't actually exist, the more this issue of the interference and control will come up. Thus cop bashing.

That's a good point.  Look at our art.  For every movie about the hero cop protecting the citizens ("The Untouchables") there is one about the outlaw who thumbs his nose at authority ("Smokey and the Bandit").  Americans have always had an ambiguous relationship with the law, especially regulatory laws.