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Posted: 4/7/2006 8:52:23 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
In before the wiretaps on Jrzy.

Posted: 4/7/2006 8:53:25 AM EDT

[#2]

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All anyone needs to know are two facts:
1) He shot Vicky Weaver to death while she was holding her baby.
2) He shot at the Branch Davidian's from his sniper position and denied it

He's a fucking murdering coward, PERIOD!

Just one more brief question then. Have you ever actually been in a fire fight?

Wow!

You really think you need to have been in an actual firefight to know that shooting women holding babies is wrong?

Man, that's f'ed up, indeed.

Eric The(KnowsHisWholesaleFromHisRetail)Hun

No Dear Hun, but I do think that anyone who has not actually been in one, has no true concept of what it is actually like or the dynamics, both physical or psychological involved. Notice I have not taken this fellow's side at all. I have merely posited that Jrzy is not in a position to state that he enjoys the act of killing people. Further, you have attacked on this position using the same logic that our frequent opponents use every time someone brings up a Liberty thread. Counselor examine thyself.

Posted: 4/7/2006 8:53:40 AM EDT

[#3]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Uh....you do now that Weaver was acquitted of those charges by a jury, do you not?

The .gov folks were using him to try and infiltrate the Aryan Nation or some such group...and they needed a 'stick' to try and get him to do so.

A short barreled stick...

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

What does 'wrong' mean, when there were absolutely no consequences paid by the .gov folks?

Did Janet 'Assume All The Responsibility' Reno resign in disgrace, or did she continue to be the longest serving Attorney General in 20th Century American History?

I think everyone got their jobs back, with full pay, etc., etc., etc.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

'Feeling' for the children doesn't mean squat.

There must be consequences to what occurred...or it will simply happen again.

And again, and again, and again.

Eric The(AlwaysSensible)Hun

Posted: 4/7/2006 8:54:13 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

Yeah, but Weaver only violated a law after months and months of being hounded by undercover agents to. He violated it mistakenly (the barrel length was ok, the oal was bad) only to get them off his back. He wouldn't have violated if he wasn't entrapped by the officers....

Posted: 4/7/2006 8:55:00 AM EDT

[#5]

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How do you know he isn't already a member and regular poster?

I hope he does read here but I doubt he'd have the balls to come out in the open.
He just likes to kill women and children form his snipers hide.

Pretty broad and childish statement from someone who does not actually know the man. How exactly do you know what he likes or dislikes? How do you know his emotions or feelings regarding any event or situation? You don't! Just more adhomonims to booste your ego and post count. Nothing more or less than trying to fit in with the cool kids on the playground.

Wow, support from shotar for him...whodda thunk it? Any guy who thinks BATFE is A-OK you gotta wonder about....

Ever heard of detached reasoning? If not, you just encountered some, and it seems to have baffled you.

Would that detatched reasoning hold up in a court of Law Counselor? Were we not both recently involved in another thread regarding mens rea?

We may be talking past each other. My point was that you were simply stating facts - we don't know what the guy actually thinks or feels. (My personal opinion that he should be rotting on the gallows is another matter.)

As to your response to jrzy, everything except your assessment of his motivations is cold, hard, fact and would probably stand up in court.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:02:21 AM EDT

[#6]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

Yeah, but Weaver only violated a law after months and months of being hounded by undercover agents to. He violated it mistakenly (the barrel length was ok, the oal was bad) only to get them off his back. He wouldn't have violated if he wasn't entrapped by the officers....

It's also a fact the govt could not produce the two shotguns at trial.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:03:17 AM EDT

[#7]

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He'd probably tell all the armchair commandos to kiss his ass and could care less what a bunch of losers think about him.

You think he's got balls huh?
You also think he did right?

I never said he did right.

But I really think someone in his shoes could/would care less about what you or me think about him.

Why should he?

Actually I think it would be neat. To actually discuss with the man what happened and what was going on in his mind before, during and after what happened. In a rational discussion.

I don't imagine it would be any different from Hitler explaining his actions if he were forced to.

Lots of rightous indignation, lots of bullshit and a good helping of self delusion.

After all Hitler was saving us from World Jewish Domination. He rescued the white race from oblivion. And all you Zion ass kissers can do is bitch, bitch, bitch. Hitler would probably tell you to kiss his ass.

And if you talked to anyone who worked for Hitler, hey they were only following orders. You "armchair commandos" have NO IDEA what it takes to be a member of an elite unit like the SS. Sure you have to do some "hard things" that others might not understand but they were saving the country dammit. They were doing it FOR YOU.

And you'd all be singing a different tune if they DIDN'T save you from those trying to destroy the country.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:04:11 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
No Dear Hun, but I do think that anyone who has not actually been in one, has no true concept of what it is actually like or the dynamics, both physical or psychological involved. Notice I have not taken this fellow's side at all. I have merely posited that Jrzy is not in a position to state that he enjoys the act of killing people. Further, you have attacked on this position using the same logic that our frequent opponents use every time someone brings up a Liberty thread. Counselor examine thyself.

'In the heat of battle' could be used to justify anything.

But we, as a civilized nation, do not justify such actions on the battlefield...but we should do so in civilian encounters with the JBTs?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You know that's not right.

Eric The(ItGotPlentyHeatedAtDachau,AtTimes,ButWeHungTheBastardsWhoDidTheHeating)Hun

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:06:42 AM EDT

[#9]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

How many of the children in those incidents were 'thugs'?

All of them, or not many of them, or none of them?

Maybe the eighteen-month olds should have left the 'compound' when the Feds arrived, eh?

But I suppose they lacked the good sense to do so?

Eric The(AmazedByTheIdiocyOfSome,ButNotAll)Hun

Wow, isn't reading comprehension taught in these superior southern schools?
The "thugs" in my little essay are the adult branch davidians, the adults at the Weaver compound, and the federal agents.
The victims from my perspective are Vicky Weaver at Ruby Ridge and the kids inside the compound.

"Eric The(AmazedByTheIdiocyOfSome,ButNotAll)Hun.."

Keep in mind that you're easily amazed, and if you weren't the very idiot that you pretend to eschew you'd realize I'm probably not far off from your viewpoint on these fiascos.
I suppose to understand what I'm stating though, you'd have to put aside your skewered viewpoints when you see a post by me, or at the very least peruse arfcom sober.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:08:06 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
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All anyone needs to know are two facts:
1) He shot Vicky Weaver to death while she was holding her baby.
2) He shot at the Branch Davidian's from his sniper position and denied it

He's a fucking murdering coward, PERIOD!

Just one more brief question then. Have you ever actually been in a fire fight?

Wow!

You really think you need to have been in an actual firefight to know that shooting women holding babies is wrong?

Man, that's f'ed up, indeed.

Eric The(KnowsHisWholesaleFromHisRetail)Hun

Have you ever murdered children?

Then how could you possibly know what you are talking about or know that it is wrong?

Wonderful line of logic going there.

I guess in firefights (although NOBODY was shooting at Lon Horiuchi - in fact he was the ONLY ONE shooting) it is ok to deliberately target a woman standing in a doorway holding a baby. I guess it is possible the baby was mistaken for an Uzi in the heat of battle.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:09:44 AM EDT

[#11]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

Yeah, but Weaver only violated a law after months and months of being hounded by undercover agents to. He violated it mistakenly (the barrel length was ok, the oal was bad) only to get them off his back. He wouldn't have violated if he wasn't entrapped by the officers....

It's also a fact the govt could not produce the two shotguns at trial.

Well in your "hundreds of hours" of research, if you'd read Weaver's book, you'd see that he admitted his role in some of this. Not only do I have his book, it's been autographed by him personally to me as I spoke to him at a local gunshow.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:10:22 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

So the US Marshalls needed a program to tell who were the players when they first shot the Weavers dog and then shot Sammy Weaver in the back as he ran for the house?

Keeping in mind that the Marshalls fired first.

Yeah, I can see how a boy and his dog would be pretty confusing...

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:11:42 AM EDT

[#13]

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No Dear Hun, but I do think that anyone who has not actually been in one, has no true concept of what it is actually like or the dynamics, both physical or psychological involved. Notice I have not taken this fellow's side at all. I have merely posited that Jrzy is not in a position to state that he enjoys the act of killing people. Further, you have attacked on this position using the same logic that our frequent opponents use every time someone brings up a Liberty thread. Counselor examine thyself.

'In the heat of battle' could be used to justify anything.

But we, as a civilized nation, do not justify such actions on the battlefield...but we should do so in civilian encounters with the JBTs?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You know that's not right.

Eric The(ItGotPlentyHeatedAtDachau,AtTimes,ButWeHungTheBastardsWhoDidTheHeating)Hun

Yet, to the guy being shot at, the heat of battle whether from a foreign or domestic enemy does not really matter all that much. Back to my earlier point, the names involved don't mean much when there is lead flying in your direction. Let me ask you this. Do you truly believe that this FBI agent, fired with the specific and deliberate intent to target and knowingly kill an unarmed woman and child. In other words, do you believe that in the microseconds before pulling the trigger, he thought to himself something along the lines of " the bitch and her brat are buzzard meat ". Because if this is what you think, then my arguments are moot. If however, you can fathom that he mis identified his target and did not realize he was shooting an unarmed woman holding an infant until the event was over, then my arguments clearly do hold water. Which is it?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:16:45 AM EDT

[#14]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Uh....you do now that Weaver was acquitted of those charges by a jury, do you not?

The .gov folks were using him to try and infiltrate the Aryan Nation or some such group...and they needed a 'stick' to try and get him to do so.

A short barreled stick...
Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

What does 'wrong' mean, when there were absolutely no consequences paid by the .gov folks?

Did Janet 'Assume All The Responsibility' Reno resign in disgrace, or did she continue to be the longest serving Attorney General in 20th Century American History?

I think everyone got their jobs back, with full pay, etc., etc., etc.
I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

'Feeling' for the children doesn't mean squat.

There must be consequences to what occurred...or it will simply happen again.

And again, and again, and again.

Eric The(AlwaysSensible)Hun

I'm not going to get into some long debate with you so you can bloviate and posture and end your posts with some cute little limerick.
Those involved in the crimes at Ruby Ridge and Waco should have been prosecuted, but they weren't so any opinion on their innocence or guilt is pure conjecture-which by the same token, you sure defend Rush Limbaugh's drug use since he hasn't been convicted of anything.Eric the Hun is nothing if not a hypocrite.
I personally think crimes were committed, but I'm powerless as one person to do anything about it, as are you.
Conversly, I don't think those cops in the Rodney King incident should have been convicted of anything, but that didn't prevent the left coast lawyers from trying them twice in criminal court for the same course of conduct did it? I'm sure though, your outrage over injustice is quite selective.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:18:04 AM EDT

[#15]

My handlers aren't going to like this, but I feel compelled to finally unburden my conscience: I'm Lon Horiuchi.

There, I feel as if a tremendous weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:19:48 AM EDT

[#16]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

So the US Marshalls needed a program to tell who were the players when they first shot the Weavers dog and then shot Sammy Weaver in the back as he ran for the house?

Keeping in mind that the Marshalls fired first.

Yeah, I can see how a boy and his dog would be pretty confusing...

I'm not gonna keep in mind that the marshals fired first, because I've read different accounts of the initial contact, just like there's varying accounts of who fired first at Waco.
I won't defend the shooting of Vicky Weaver because by all accounts that was over the top.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:20:02 AM EDT

[#17]

looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.

2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,

last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:20:02 AM EDT

[#18]

Who is Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:22:07 AM EDT

[#19]

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He'd probably tell all the armchair commandos to kiss his ass and could care less what a bunch of losers think about him.

You think he's got balls huh?
You also think he did right?

I never said he did right.

But I really think someone in his shoes could/would care less about what you or me think about him.

Why should he?

Actually I think it would be neat. To actually discuss with the man what happened and what was going on in his mind before, during and after what happened. In a rational discussion.

I don't imagine it would be any different from Hitler explaining his actions if he were forced to.

Lots of rightous indignation, lots of bullshit and a good helping of self delusion.

After all Hitler was saving us from World Jewish Domination. He rescued the white race from oblivion. And all you Zion ass kissers can do is bitch, bitch, bitch. Hitler would probably tell you to kiss his ass.

And if you talked to anyone who worked for Hitler, hey they were only following orders. You "armchair commandos" have NO IDEA what it takes to be a member of an elite unit like the SS. Sure you have to do some "hard things" that others might not understand but they were saving the country dammit. They were doing it FOR YOU.

And you'd all be singing a different tune if they DIDN'T save you from those trying to destroy the country.

Look at Saddam in court right now, he didn't do a thing wrong either, he's no murderer

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:22:44 AM EDT

[#20]

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No Dear Hun, but I do think that anyone who has not actually been in one, has no true concept of what it is actually like or the dynamics, both physical or psychological involved. Notice I have not taken this fellow's side at all. I have merely posited that Jrzy is not in a position to state that he enjoys the act of killing people. Further, you have attacked on this position using the same logic that our frequent opponents use every time someone brings up a Liberty thread. Counselor examine thyself.

'In the heat of battle' could be used to justify anything.

But we, as a civilized nation, do not justify such actions on the battlefield...but we should do so in civilian encounters with the JBTs?

Tsk, tsk, tsk. You know that's not right.

Eric The(ItGotPlentyHeatedAtDachau,AtTimes,ButWeHungTheBastardsWhoDidTheHeating)Hun

Yet, to the guy being shot at, the heat of battle whether from a foreign or domestic enemy does not really matter all that much. Back to my earlier point, the names involved don't mean much when there is lead flying in your direction. Let me ask you this. Do you truly believe that this FBI agent, fired with the specific and deliberate intent to target and knowingly kill an unarmed woman and child. In other words, do you believe that in the microseconds before pulling the trigger, he thought to himself something along the lines of " the bitch and her brat are buzzard meat ". Because if this is what you think, then my arguments are moot. If however, you can fathom that he mis identified his target and did not realize he was shooting an unarmed woman holding an infant until the event was over, then my arguments clearly do hold water. Which is it?

Heat of battle? There was no battle or firefight. Horouchi sniped the woman during a rather calm period in the standoff.
I haven't the slightest idea of what may have been going through his head at the time, but if it is like some of the comments of some Feds I've had the pleasure to deal with, I can imagine...
The whole mess was the fault of an unconstitutional agency using an unconstitutional law in an attempt to force someone to infiltrate a political organization.
I'm a Fed (.mil) and I think Lon is a scumbag....as well as a no good West Pointer (go Navy)

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:23:13 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:23:59 AM EDT

[#22]

If I remember correctly Weaver at the Senate hearings had the door from his cabin and demonstrated how his wife was standing behind it and stooped to demonstrate her height. She could not be seen by the FBI sniper. The FBI sniper intended to and in fact did shoot the family friend who was armed and running into the cabin. Unfortunately the bullet passed thru the door and thru Vicki Weaver before wounding the family friend.
If I remember the sequence of events correctly, the dog was shot by a US Marshall, the Marshal was shot by Weavers son who was then shot by another Marshall. Whatever the events leading up to it, when the Marshall was shot everything went down the tubes. For another tought, Weaver initially got into this mess my sawing off a shotgun barrel for someone. So, if someone approached you and asked you to saw off a gun barrel for him. Would you do it? I would hand the guy a saw and say 'have at it'.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:24:01 AM EDT

[#23]

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Who is Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi?

You are shittin' me right?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:24:45 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Who is Lon Tomohisa Horiuchi?

The highly trained FBI "sniper" who wasted a mother as she held her baby bhind a kitchen door with a window in it...a real crack shot!

I for one believe he knew exactly what he was firing at....and didn't care. Figured two less "enemies of the state"...

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:26:06 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
If I remember correctly Weaver at the Senate hearings had the door from his cabin and demonstrated how his wife was standing behind it and stooped to demonstrate her height. She could not be seen by the FBI sniper. The FBI sniper intended to and in fact did shoot the family friend who was armed and running into the cabin. Unfortunately the bullet passed thru the door and thru Vicki Weaver before wounding the family friend.
If I remember the sequence of events correctly, the dog was shot by a US Marshall, the Marshal was shot by Weavers son who was then shot by another Marshall. Whatever the events leading up to it, when the Marshall was shot everything went down the tubes. For another tought, Weaver initially got into this mess my sawing off a shotgun barrel for someone. So, if someone approached you and asked you to saw off a gun barrel for him. Would you do it? I would hand the guy a saw and say 'have at it'.

So based upon the senate hearings, V. Weaver was not in fact the intended target, but an armed gunman was the intended target????

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:28:24 AM EDT

[#26]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

Yeah, but Weaver only violated a law after months and months of being hounded by undercover agents to. He violated it mistakenly (the barrel length was ok, the oal was bad) only to get them off his back. He wouldn't have violated if he wasn't entrapped by the officers....

It's also a fact the govt could not produce the two shotguns at trial.

Well in your "hundreds of hours" of research, if you'd read Weaver's book, you'd see that he admitted his role in some of this. Not only do I have his book, it's been autographed by him personally to me as I spoke to him at a local gunshow.

Yeah so?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:28:53 AM EDT

[#27]

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My whole take on Ruby Ridge and Waco is thugs vs thugs. Weaver knowingly violated federal laws, whether you agree with the law or not you don't get "victim" status when you openly defy the rule of law. The cowards inside the compound at Waco took their own children as hostages.

Now, the federal government was wrong to kill the kids inside the Waco compound, and the federal government was wrong to snipe an unarmed woman.

I feel for Vicky Weaver, I feel for the children at Waco, but otherwise to me Waco/Ruby Ridge were games where you couldn't tell the players without a program.

So the US Marshalls needed a program to tell who were the players when they first shot the Weavers dog and then shot Sammy Weaver in the back as he ran for the house?

Keeping in mind that the Marshalls fired first.

Yeah, I can see how a boy and his dog would be pretty confusing...

I'm not gonna keep in mind that the marshals fired first, because I've read different accounts of the initial contact, just like there's varying accounts of who fired first at Waco.
I won't defend the shooting of Vicky Weaver because by all accounts that was over the top.

You mean the initial account where the Marshall lied? The one the FBI later proved wasn't true?

You gotta be kidding me. I guess you don't beleive the Holocaust happened because there were conflicting inital accounts of relocation huh?

Here's a tip. The CURRENT official record of events from the US government inidcates the US Marshals fired first. It isn't hard to find, especially for you.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:28:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
If I remember correctly Weaver at the Senate hearings had the door from his cabin and demonstrated how his wife was standing behind it and stooped to demonstrate her height. She could not be seen by the FBI sniper. The FBI sniper intended to and in fact did shoot the family friend who was armed and running into the cabin. Unfortunately the bullet passed thru the door and thru Vicki Weaver before wounding the family friend.
If I remember the sequence of events correctly, the dog was shot by a US Marshall, the Marshal was shot by Weavers son who was then shot by another Marshall. Whatever the events leading up to it, when the Marshall was shot everything went down the tubes. For another tought, Weaver initially got into this mess my sawing off a shotgun barrel for someone. So, if someone approached you and asked you to saw off a gun barrel for him. Would you do it? I would hand the guy a saw and say 'have at it'.

Bullshit, he knew what he was shooting at, and did it anyway....and those agents hounded Weaver for like a year to supply them with the gun. He only finally did to get them to stop bothering him. The perfect definition of entrapment. He WOULDN'T have performed the act without the extensive badgering by the agents...

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:29:27 AM EDT

[#29]

BTW Shotar, how was Randy Weaver an enemy ,"Foreign and Domestic."
How was the Constitution served by hunting down a man for making a shotgun 1/8" too short?
You honesty cannot suggest that the Ruby Ridge debacle was some sort of "noble protection" of our liberties?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:30:59 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:

last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

Well, it may not be an RPG, but it should qualify as a biological or chemical WMD.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:32:12 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I think a lot of accounts would go down the shitter. Then again, I bet a startling number of Lon Apologists would come out of the woodwork.

i disagree. i bet a very believable number of lon apologists would speak up, and i bet they'd be the usual suspects.

oops. what was that, a type 2 with a little type 1 thrown in...?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:32:33 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
BTW Shotar, how was Randy Weaver an enemy ,"Foreign and Domestic."
How was the Constitution served by hunting down a man for making a shotgun 1/8" too short?
You honesty cannot suggest that the Ruby Ridge debacle was some sort of "noble protection" of our liberties?

Indeed not. Was Weaver a domestic enemy? I contend that the agents on the ground thought he was. They thought so because he would not surrender to a valid warrant. Had he simply come out when he realized it was the police, then we would not even be debating the minutae ad nauseum.

BTW, the only government employee I have ever encountered who even remotely said killing other human beings was " fun " was what you navy folks call your muscle. Go Army.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:32:48 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

This ain't VN or Tel Aviv pal.
It's the good old USA where we don't shoot women carrying babies.
Maybe in you mind it was ok or some how justifiable.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:37:37 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
He'd probably tell all the armchair commandos to kiss his ass and could care less what a bunch of losers think about him.

You think he's got balls huh?
You also think he did right?

I never said he did right.

But I really think someone in his shoes could/would care less about what you or me think about him.

Why should he?

Actually I think it would be neat. To actually discuss with the man what happened and what was going on in his mind before, during and after what happened. In a rational discussion.

I don't imagine it would be any different from Hitler explaining his actions if he were forced to.

Lots of rightous indignation, lots of bullshit and a good helping of self delusion.

After all Hitler was saving us from World Jewish Domination. He rescued the white race from oblivion. And all you Zion ass kissers can do is bitch, bitch, bitch. Hitler would probably tell you to kiss his ass.

And if you talked to anyone who worked for Hitler, hey they were only following orders. You "armchair commandos" have NO IDEA what it takes to be a member of an elite unit like the SS. Sure you have to do some "hard things" that others might not understand but they were saving the country dammit. They were doing it FOR YOU.

And you'd all be singing a different tune if they DIDN'T save you from those trying to destroy the country.

And there you have it. Godwin's Law has been proved once again.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:37:39 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

This ain't VN or Tel Aviv pal.
It;s the good old USA where we don't shoot women carrying babies.
Maybe in you mind it was ok or some how justifiable.

My mind has nothing to do with it. Its about the facts and mens rea of the incident. You are the one who injected your feeble mind. There are things that happen in the good ol US of A that most folks choose not to hear about but they still happen. We even have congressional tesitmony cited here where it is pointed out that the agent could not see V. Weaver from his vantage point but was shooting at a running gunman when he fired the fatal shot. Is this true? If so, it changes the entire character of the discussion. Was there a gunman entering the door in close proximity to her? You're the expert, you tell me>?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:37:55 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
Quoted:
BTW Shotar, how was Randy Weaver an enemy ,"Foreign and Domestic."
How was the Constitution served by hunting down a man for making a shotgun 1/8" too short?
You honesty cannot suggest that the Ruby Ridge debacle was some sort of "noble protection" of our liberties?

Indeed not. Was Weaver a domestic enemy? I contend that the agents on the ground thought he was. They thought so because he would not surrender to a valid warrant. Had he simply come out when he realized it was the police, then we would not even be debating the minutae ad nauseum.

BTW, the only government employee I have ever encountered who even remotely said killing other human beings was " fun " was what you navy folks call your muscle. Go Army.

So I guess according to you it's worth the lives lost to make someone obey?
All they did was force their will on someone by force.

Fuck those idiots who ordered it and fuck the sniper who should rot in hell for murder.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:39:45 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

Geez, is there any line you would admit too? Idaho wasn't a war zone filled with combatants...I don't think by any stretch of the imagination you could possibly say or anyone could think that Vicki Weaver holding a baby was any kind of threat...unless you are a citizen hating JBT...

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:39:50 AM EDT

[#38]

The only folks we call "muscle" are the cooks at KBR (talk about NBC warefare).

If you mean specops types, nope, sorry. Don't talk about keeping "civilians" in their place like some Feds I've met. Bravado that will never come to fruition? Probably.
"Domestic Enemy" refers to the Oath to support and defend the constitution, I still don't see how creating this whole mess over a shotgun does that.
Mrs Weaver would be alive if Mr Weaver surrendered.
They would also be alive if F-Troop didn't create the whole issue in the first place!

21:40 here in Ramadi. What time is it back in the world?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:40:15 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
BTW Shotar, how was Randy Weaver an enemy ,"Foreign and Domestic."
How was the Constitution served by hunting down a man for making a shotgun 1/8" too short?
You honesty cannot suggest that the Ruby Ridge debacle was some sort of "noble protection" of our liberties?

Indeed not. Was Weaver a domestic enemy? I contend that the agents on the ground thought he was. They thought so because he would not surrender to a valid warrant. Had he simply come out when he realized it was the police, then we would not even be debating the minutae ad nauseum.

BTW, the only government employee I have ever encountered who even remotely said killing other human beings was " fun " was what you navy folks call your muscle. Go Army.

So I guess according to you it's worth the lives lost to make someone obey?
All they did was force their will on someone by force.

Fuck those idiots who ordered it and fuck the sniper who should rot in hell for murder.

I suppose he could have chosen compliance as an alternative to force, but when you are a tinfoil hat wearer, logic sometimes does not enter into the equation and some folks actually force their own worse fears to come true.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:41:48 AM EDT

[#40]

Who?

_____________________________________

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:42:40 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
The only folks we call "muscle" are the cooks at KBR (talk about NBC warefare).

If you mean specops types, nope, sorry. Don't talk about keeping "civilians" in their place like some Feds I've met. Bravado that will never come to fruition? Probably.
"Domestic Enemy" refers to the Oath to support and defend the constitution, I still don't see how creating this whole mess over a shotgun does that.
Mrs Weaver would be alive if Mr Weaver surrendered.
They would also be alive if F-Troop didn't create the whole issue in the first place!

21:40 here in Ramadi. What time is it back in the world?

its 13:40 and I was referring to a marine. I do agree though that there were alternatives. Now can someone enlighten me as to this information that Lon was actually intending to shoot an armed gunman that happend to cross the line of fire with V. Weaver???? Was she not his specifically intended target?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:44:06 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

And there you have it. Godwin's Law has been proved once again.

So I should use Stalin from now on?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:44:52 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

bro this is the USA randy was not a dealer in atomic weapons, he sawed off a fucking shotgun at the request of a fed agent to feed his poor assed fammily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you s_it bag
if the SHTF YOU will probably be running around condoning that the fed disarm us just like in new orleans,,, you are a gulible person ,,,, by the way the federal gvt lost a civil suit filed by randy weaver for over 2 million dollars for the wrongfull death of his fammily members,,, you are fogetting that arnt you BRO, so if they were so rite why did they loose the civil suit,

also women in Iraq dont use babys as shelter , the men do

tell you what when we turn into a totalitarian gvt you can be the first in line to be head of the gestapo or execution squads that they are going to need to control us SUBJECTS

POS

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:45:15 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
My handlers aren't going to like this, but I feel compelled to finally unburden my conscience: I'm Lon Horiuchi.

There, I feel as if a tremendous weight has been lifted from my shoulders.

Hey Lon, wanna go shooting some time?

I'll shoot and you go out there and hang the targets, mkay?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:46:27 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Quoted:
BTW Shotar, how was Randy Weaver an enemy ,"Foreign and Domestic."
How was the Constitution served by hunting down a man for making a shotgun 1/8" too short?
You honesty cannot suggest that the Ruby Ridge debacle was some sort of "noble protection" of our liberties?

Indeed not. Was Weaver a domestic enemy? I contend that the agents on the ground thought he was. They thought so because he would not surrender to a valid warrant. Had he simply come out when he realized it was the police, then we would not even be debating the minutae ad nauseum.

BTW, the only government employee I have ever encountered who even remotely said killing other human beings was " fun " was what you navy folks call your muscle. Go Army.

The agents on the ground were assholes, as are most Feds in the FBI and BATFE. Yeah, lets see, two undercover agents hound the guy for a year for a "sawed off" shotgun, he finally does it just to shut them up...keeping the barrel a legal length but forgetting about the whole OAL thing. Then they serve him with papers with the wrong date...he goes that day...no one there.

So the guy is being railroaded for a crime he wouldn't have committed if not ENTRAPPED...and then pays with the lives of his family and friends because of a Gov snafu (which probably wasn't a snafu at all, just a reason to go in shooting)

God forbid there is an outright gun ban...many of us would all become domestic enemies in your eyes, and people like you would come after us and kill us and our families for having the gall to not turn in our guns....not to mention our poor pets...

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:47:46 AM EDT

[#46]

Well tell him how you feel?? [email protected].... He tried signing up years ago but was denied.. He then registered as Imbroglio..

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:48:21 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

bro this is the USA randy was not a dealer in atomic weapons, he sawed off a fucking shotgun at the request of a fed agent to feed his poor assed fammily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you s_it bag
if the SHTF YOU will probably be running around condoning that the fed disarm us just like in new orleans,,, you are a gulible person ,,,, by the way the federal gvt lost a civil suit filed by randy weaver for over 2 million dollars for the wrongfull death of his fammily members,,, you are fogetting that arnt you BRO, so if they were so rite why did they loose the civil suit,

also women in Iraq dont use babys as shelter , the men do

tell you what when we turn into a totalitarian gvt you can be the first in line to be head of the gestapo or execution squads that they are going to need to control us SUBJECTS

POS

You have no idea what I think. I am well aware that weaver won a suit for $3mm. All the more proof he should have come out peacefully. Water under the bridge though. Now, what of this information from the senate hearings that this specific FBI agent was actually shooting at an armed gunman who happened to cross the line of Fire with V. Weaver and that he actually could not have seen her behind the door?? Is this accurate information or not? No one will answer.

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:49:30 AM EDT

[#48]

Actually, all the Marines here are very upset if a civilian (esp a child) is a casualty. Usually you hear REMFs talking like that.
Horouchi is only a piece of a series terrible (shall I dare use the term?) JBP tactics used by the agency that started the whole mess.
A revenue collection agency using an (IMHO) unconstitutional law to entrap a person to infiltrate an organization so that they can make more arrests using similar unconstitutional laws just flys in the face of the whole intent of the Country.
Can you imagine what Jefferson or Adams would have to say about the f-troop?

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:50:09 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
looking threw a scope and shooting a woman and her baby is murder not defence of our country, the constitution, the bill of rights or my right to watch southpark, it is murder plain and simple,

1 baby is not an enemy combatant.
2 woman carying baby is not an enemy combatant,
last time I checked a baby cannot shoot an RPG out of its ass

anyone justifying his action is a person who condones the killing of inocents with precision fire
is a murder loving son of a bitch, and should rot in hell along with that shooter

How many women carrying babies turned out to be enemy combatants in VN, how about in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem or Fallujah? Not everything is an absolute where human perceptions are involved.

bro this is the USA randy was not a dealer in atomic weapons, he sawed off a fucking shotgun at the request of a fed agent to feed his poor assed fammily,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, you s_it bag
if the SHTF YOU will probably be running around condoning that the fed disarm us just like in new orleans,,, you are a gulible person ,,,, by the way the federal gvt lost a civil suit filed by randy weaver for over 2 million dollars for the wrongfull death of his fammily members,,, you are fogetting that arnt you BRO, so if they were so rite why did they loose the civil suit,

also women in Iraq dont use babys as shelter , the men do

tell you what when we turn into a totalitarian gvt you can be the first in line to be head of the gestapo or execution squads that they are going to need to control us SUBJECTS

POS

You have no idea what I think. I am well aware that weaver won a suit for $3mm. All the more proof he should have come out peacefully. Water under the bridge though. Now, what of this information from the senate hearings that this specific FBI agent was actually shooting at an armed gunman who happened to cross the line of Fire with V. Weaver and that he actually could not have seen her behind the door?? Is this accurate information or not? No one will answer.

Not from what I remember from the hearings, I think its BS....

Posted: 4/7/2006 9:51:10 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Blah blah blah. Eric the Hun is nothing if not a hypocrite.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What would happen if lon tomohisa horiuchi (Page 2 of 4)

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