Quoted: i did some ballistic tests using cedar (probably softer than oak) at about 15 yards. definitely penetrated more than half an inch. what distance were you shooting from? 2 3/4 inch slug?

Yes, 2 3/4 slug.  Prolly 75 yards.

I did some testing on a 6" thick board at about 6 feet using Federal Tactical slugs and wasn't that impressed with the "almight 12 gauge".

see, you guys are putting way to many stipulations on this scenario. making it real hard for me to post a smart ass answer.

Quoted: No one can say for sure what deer will do when hit with certain calibers.  Every kill is unique.  You have the hunters who claim that their "aught-six" has dropped every deer they've ever shot right where it was standing even if it was hit in the stomach.  There are some people who drop every deer they shoot, and some who see them all run no matter where they are hit (like me... except for the head shots).  I have put a 185 grain .300 win mag ballistic tip through the heart (yes, I disected and checked) and lung of a deer only to have him run 30 yards before dying.  There is just no way to guess if a deer will drop or run, regardless of the cartridge used. As for the body armor issue, the main things to consider when discussing body armor are the velocity of the round being fired, and the bullet weight/density;  i.e. a hollowpoint round is easier to stop than a full metal jacket of the same caliber.  With a shotgun, you have a relatively slow moving LARGE projectile... therefore, the energy is already being spread out over a larger area.  A level III vest and especially level IV should have no problem stopping a slug (as proven by tests).   As for the person "flying back" when shot, I don't remember ever shooting a deer that "flew back" several feet when it was hit.  Even a coyote, which is small and I'm sure doesn't brace itself for impact, doesn't fly back at all when shot... they usually just crumple straight down.

You couldn't be more right. Just this last fall I shot two ~200lb doe with 130grain .270. One as close as 50 yards, the other at  about 175yards. Both of them ran 50 yards before they dropped and both of them had a nice small hole right behind the front leg and right out the other side. After gutting them both had their hearts split right in half by the round.  Granted, a .270 isn't a 30-06 or a .300 win mag, but it does tell you that just because a round hits a deer and might destroy the heart doesn't mean that they will fly back or crumple on the spot. Ask anyone who lives around grizzlys if they'd shoot for the heart to try to stop one attacking them. If you want to drop an animal or a person as fast as possible the best way to do that is to shoot at the nervous system, not the circulatory system.

i've only taken one deer with a slug, and it went down quickly, probably stumbled around for about 20 yards and dropped. all other's i've taken with 7 mm mags and .270s, and they run off like carl lewis on meth. but like someone else said, every shooting is like a snowflake

Quoted: ...A slug a 10 yards will not give a shit what type of vest or level of trauma plate someone has on, it will just go ahead and kill you.  This bullshit about the impact being spead over the plate come on...  Get hit with a one ounce slug from 10' even if a plate stopped it, which I don't believe I think your heart would explode.  More than likely it would completely penetrate the front of the vest, the human body and the rear of the vest.  The human would die.

"Listen! And understand! That Slug is out there. It can't be bargained with! It can't be reasoned with! It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!"

"You still don't get it, do you? The Slug will find her. That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! He'll wade through you, reach down her throat, and pull her fucking heart out!"

Quoted: I would have to see it to believe it.  Right now I am more than skeptical.  It does not make me feel better that they could not even spell "float" in thier web site "flaot" It would be great if true, but as of now I do not believe.

Hell, you couldn't even spell 'dying' right before.  And you discount what other people with actual working knowledge have to say because of they transposed two letters.

Really, you should learn about the subject matter before you post  baseless opinions that fly in the face of established fact. You're just making yourself look foolish.

Quoted: Quoted: ...A slug a 10 yards will not give a shit what type of vest or level of trauma plate someone has on, it will just go ahead and kill you.  This bullshit about the impact being spead over the plate come on...  Get hit with a one ounce slug from 10' even if a plate stopped it, which I don't believe I think your heart would explode.  More than likely it would completely penetrate the front of the vest, the human body and the rear of the vest.  The human would die. "Listen! And understand! That Slug is out there. It can't be bargained with! It can't be reasoned with! It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!" "You still don't get it, do you? The Slug will find her. That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! He'll wade through you, reach down her throat, and pull her fucking heart out!"

12 gauge slug: The magic round. Will kill anyone at any range, no matter how much armor they're wearing. Hell, they could be in a tank and the slug would go through the tank, defeat the armor plate, the vest, and then go through the person, out the other side of the vest, though the other side of the tank, and then find the engine block of an oldsmobile 442 and go straight through it like butter!

Screw it, I'm selling every gun I own and buying only 12 gauge shotguns from now. Nothing can stop it.

Quoted: A level IV armor plate would apparently stop the slug, however, that much blunt force trauma to the chest cannot be a good thing..

Yeah, just like when you SHOOT a shotgun..

Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area...



Scott

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ...A slug a 10 yards will not give a shit what type of vest or level of trauma plate someone has on, it will just go ahead and kill you.  This bullshit about the impact being spead over the plate come on...  Get hit with a one ounce slug from 10' even if a plate stopped it, which I don't believe I think your heart would explode.  More than likely it would completely penetrate the front of the vest, the human body and the rear of the vest.  The human would die. "Listen! And understand! That Slug is out there. It can't be bargained with! It can't be reasoned with! It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead!" "You still don't get it, do you? The Slug will find her. That's what he does. That's all he does! You can't stop him! He'll wade through you, reach down her throat, and pull her fucking heart out!" 12 gauge slug: The magic round. Will kill anyone at any range, no matter how much armor they're wearing. Hell, they could be in a tank and the slug would go through the tank, defeat the armor plate, the vest, and then go through the person, out the other side of the vest, though the other side of the tank, and then find the engine block of an oldsmobile 442 and go straight through it like butter! Screw it, I'm selling every gun I own and buying only 12 gauge shotguns from now. Nothing can stop it.

Really Bastiat, I think you're giving that tank, body armor, and olds 442 WAY too much credit! This is a 12 gauge slug we're talking about here, not a bb gun. I would think there'd be at least a mushroom cloud.

Quoted: Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area... Scott

I am no expert, but I doubt the recoil force is the same as the muzzle force.  If it was then no round would ever kill anything.

Quoted: Quoted: A level IV armor plate would apparently stop the slug, however, that much blunt force trauma to the chest cannot be a good thing.. Yeah, just like when you SHOOT a shotgun.. Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area... Scott

correct

Quoted: Quoted: Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area... Scott I am no expert, but I doubt the recoil force is the same as the muzzle force.  If it was then no round would ever kill anything.

If I drop a bowling ball from 6 feet will it penetrate your skin ?

If I drop a broad head arrow from the same distance will it penetrate your skin.

Quoted: [The speed of a 2000 lb. VW is 51 feet per second.  That's based on the old rule-of-thumb of 60 MPH = 88 feet per second. Therefore the VW would comprise 2000 lbs. X 51FPS = 102,000 foot pounds of energy.  Can anyone confirm this?

I came out to 80877 ft/lb from here :

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/kineticenergy.swf

2000 lbs = 14,000,000 grains

Remington gives 2,361 ft/lb of energy for a 12ga 1oz slug

So getting hit by a VW going 35 MPH delivers 34x more energy then a 12ga slug.

In order for it to deliver the same amount of energy the VW would have to be going .... 8.5 fps or 5.8 MPH

I shot a 12 gauge 3 inch slug through a used level II vest from about 10 yards.
It went through the first side with no problems.

Quoted: anything you've said in the thread

Shows what you know.  The facts have already been put out there.  You choose to believe hollywood and the rumor-mill instead.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area... Scott I am no expert, but I doubt the recoil force is the same as the muzzle force.  If it was then no round would ever kill anything. Wow, you really are "no expert"--not even a novice.  "For every action there is an equal, and opposite, reaction."  Period--EVERY action, including shooting a projectile from a firearm.  You live by this law whether you are aware of it or not.

Yes, I understand that Mike.  But some of the recoil is absorbed various ways thru out the gun is it not?  Where as all of the energy is released in the bullet.

SGtar15

I own a video tape that shows people getting killed.

One of these is of a Korean student in a riot.  The cop/soldier shoots him point blank in the chest with a 12 gauge.

He just stands there.

Blood starts pouring out of the hole

- pause for several seconds -

He collapses from the blood loss.


So, there we have a real life (and death) example of the mighty, nuclear 12 gauge.  Didn't even really move the guy at all, and it took about 20 seconds to incapacitate him.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Come on folks.  Simple physics here.   Is the trauma to your shoulder when firing a 12ga unbearable?  Imagine that same force spread out over a MUCH LARGER area... Scott I am no expert, but I doubt the recoil force is the same as the muzzle force.  If it was then no round would ever kill anything. Wow, you really are "no expert"--not even a novice.  "For every action there is an equal, and opposite, reaction."  Period--EVERY action, including shooting a projectile from a firearm.  You live by this law whether you are aware of it or not.   Yes, I understand that Mike.  But some of the recoil is absorbed various ways thru out the gun is it not?  Where as all of the energy is released in the bullet. SGtar15

(1)  Two objects interacting feel the same (magnitude of) force in different directions.  The gun and the slug feel the same force (transmitted through the expanding gas).  Force is change in momentum per unit time.  Since both the gun and the slug interact for the same period of time, they both gain the same momentum.  Momentum is mass*speed.  The gun, weighing hundreds of times more than the slug, is moving hundreds of times slower than the bullet (less than 10 fps).

The vastly different speeds mean that the bullet has hundreds of times more energy (0.5*mass*speed*speed) than the gun.  That's a big factor in the deadliness of the bullet.

(2)  Now...a little more about forces.  What does "muzzle force" mean?  Forces are relevant at two points, the firing of the gun and the impact with the person.  The forces on the gun and slug at firing are certainly equal (assuming that the muzzle blast doesn't have a significant effect one way or the other).  What are the forces on the shooter and the shootee?  As stated above, force is the change in momentum per unit time.  When the gun recoils against you, it is moving very slowly.  Because it is moving slowly, your body (which has a lot of inertia) has time to move with it.  That means that the momentum transfer is spread over a relatively long time, compared to the slug hitting the shootee.  The slug is moving so fast that the shootee's inertia holds them in place, and they do not have time to react to the shot.  Remember, both the gun and the slug are transferring about the same amount of momentum to the shooter/shootee.  Since the time of transfer is so much shorter for the slug/shootee, the force is much greater.  

This emphasizes the point that forces are only conserved in interactions.  The thing that's conserved for freely moving objects is momentum.  What determines the force that that moving object exerts on another object during a second interaction is the time it takes to transfer the momentum.

(3) Cyanide's post above raises another important point.  Pressure (force/area) is very important, too.  Not only is the force of the slug on the shooter much greater, the area is much smaller.  Pressure translates roughly into penetration.

Edited 'cause I kant kount 2 thre.

What the hell is this... the part in Monty Python's Holy Grail where they are arguing about whether or not the coconut got carried by the swallow? Funny stuff...

Anyways... all of you who have discounted the mighty 12 gauge slug might do well to remember that it is still one of the main weapons in hand when an Alaskan guide or park ranger needs to deal with an angry Brown bear. There are many reasons for that, but one of the main ones is that IT IS POWERFUL enough to do the job. Which would you rather have if faced at close range with a large Griz or Brown... a 7.62 or a 12 gauge with 1oz slugs? I'm sure some of you smartasses will prefer the rifle caliber, but I would have to go with the caliber chosen by those with experience in the field. Tell me how many of the Alaskan guides and rangers are using 7.62 as their bear defensive caliber...

Quoted: Anyways... all of you who have discounted the mighty 12 gauge slug might do well to remember that it is still one of the main weapons in hand when an Alaskan guide or park ranger needs to deal with an angry Brown bear. There are many reasons for that, but one of the main ones is that IT IS POWERFUL enough to do the job. Which would you rather have if faced at close range with a large Griz or Brown... a 7.62 or a 12 gauge with 1oz slugs? I'm sure some of you smartasses will prefer the rifle caliber, but I would have to go with the caliber chosen by those with experience in the field. Tell me how many of the Alaskan guides and rangers are using 7.62 as their bear defensive caliber...

I don't know, are the bears wearing level III plates?

there was a cop that I read about who was shot with a 45-70. His vest stopped the bullet from penetrating, but he died anyway from the blunt trauma to the chest. His wife was trying to sue the company that made the vest.I dont have a link but somebody else might.
I believe that if you got shot in the chest with a 12guage slug, without trauma plates you might die you might not, probably has to do with specific areas and organs, and how fast you might get medical treatment. Heck I have heard of batters getting hit with a baseball in the chest and dying.

Quoted: What the hell is this... the part in Monty Python's Holy Grail where they are arguing about whether or not the coconut got carried by the swallow? Funny stuff...

Is that an African or European shotgun?

Quoted: I own a video tape that shows people getting killed. One of these is of a Korean student in a riot.  The cop/soldier shoots him point blank in the chest with a 12 gauge. He just stands there. Blood starts pouring out of the hole - pause for several seconds - He collapses from the blood loss. So, there we have a real life (and death) example of the mighty, nuclear 12 gauge.  Didn't even really move the guy at all, and it took about 20 seconds to incapacitate him.

i've seen this footage and you're exactly right. isn't it kind of ruthless how the copper just stands over him and racks the slide, basically ejecting the empty shell right on him while he bleeds to death (didn't take long by the looks of it)? i also thought it was a little excessive since the kid wasn't armed and was trying to run away.

Quoted: Quoted: [The speed of a 2000 lb. VW is 51 feet per second.  That's based on the old rule-of-thumb of 60 MPH = 88 feet per second. Therefore the VW would comprise 2000 lbs. X 51FPS = 102,000 foot pounds of energy.  Can anyone confirm this? I came out to 80877 ft/lb from here : http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/kineticenergy.swf 2000 lbs = 14,000,000 grains Remington gives 2,361 ft/lb of energy for a 12ga 1oz slug So getting hit by a VW going 35 MPH delivers 34x more energy then a 12ga slug. In order for it to deliver the same amount of energy the VW would have to be going .... 8.5 fps or 5.8 MPH

BEEEP...  WRONG,,,,  Try Again....


Energy = 1/2 mass x velocity squared

E= .5 * 2000/32.2 * 51^2 = 215,646,290 ft lbs  (we divide 2000 lbs (weight) by the acceleration of gravity (32.2) to get mass)

Therefore the VW has 91,336 times more energy  than the 12 gauge slug.  So the slug will have a similar effect as getting hit by a car...  NOT!!!


One of the reasons I think many people are having trouble here is the lack of understanding of the law of the conservation of momentum.

Mass #1 * Velocity #1 = Mass #2 * Velocity #2

1 oz * 1560 fps = 120 oz (7.5 lb shotgun) * V#2 (I ignored dividing by 32.2 because both side of the equation are divided by the same 32.2 making this step not required)

Solve for V#2 and get 13 fps.  (Not too much damage to your shouder)

Solve for V when the body armor weights 4 lbs =24 fps ( I've been hit by softballs going faster with less suface area...  All I got was a bruise.  Some of you must be real pansies if you think that will explode your heart)

Physics is our friend.  It isn't magic.

Kent

Dang!  I should have read further to get to the Fizzasists post.  Oh well at least you have some numbers to compare now.

Kent

Quoted: Dang!  I should have read further to get to the Fizzasists post.  Oh well at least you have some numbers to compare now.

I'm glad someone read it.    It gets hairy when people start using force, energy, impulse, action, pressure and momentum interchangably.  

Quoted: I can personally attest to the fact that a 12 gauge slug only penetrates about 1/2" into a tree.

Yep, and I've shot 7.62 clear through 6" planks. It's Velocity people, slow slug - fast bullet.

If I take a one ounce stone and throw it at you it will hurt. But if I take a much smaller stone and fire it at you with a catapult it going to cut you open and hurt like hell.

Andy

Quoted: Quoted: I can personally attest to the fact that a 12 gauge slug only penetrates about 1/2" into a tree. Yep, and I've shot 7.62 clear through 6" planks. It's Velocity people, slow slug - fast bullet. If I take a one ounce stone and throw it at you it will hurt. But if I take a much smaller stone and fire it at you with a catapult it going to cut you open and hurt like hell. Andy

and a grain of sand at 25,000 mph will blow through a couple inches of aluminum armor

but the Whipple Shield looks pretty good.

Dang lost my post when it crashed

You have conservation of momentum and conservation of energy working.

Sigma (total) Momentum before = Sigma Momentum After

Sigma Kinetic Energy Before = Sigma Kinetic Energy  After + Work  

Work is defined as energy converted to heat, etc.

My figures came out to about  the target would be accelerated to about  .3 f/s, assuming no energy lost.  You start absorbing energy via plates, and the target giving some by bending and he likely ain't gonna go anywhere  but to the liniment locker.

You spread impact area and time of event out and  you can see the reasons.  And if you can absorb/convert that energy outside the chest cavity you win.  

Compare it to a nurse sticking yer arm with a hypo using the same force in the same area hitting with a plank.

Force = MassxAcceleration =PressurexArea

Acceleration = Change in Velocity/time

Unfortunately the world unlike theoretical physics doesn't exist in a vacumn, so although the projectiles might have the same momentum and energy when leaving the barrel, a slug designed to expend all it's energy  in close and not worrying about friction  inflicts less pressure but over a greater area but friction will slow it rapidly, a rifle bullet will not have near as much friction and will travel much farther but it's area is much much less and up close because of it's construction might not  expand to shed energy and fully penetrate barriers before expending most of it's energy, or the converse be traveling so fast it sheds it's energy extremely quickly and  "explodes" before it penetrates enough to do damage.   A 40 grn varmint  .223 on a grizzly bear skull or ballistic plate, might penetrate a pistol proof vest,  a .223 fmj will probably bounce of the grizzly skull and will off many plates.  A slug with same energy, might actually penetrate the skull, likely break it or concuss the bear, bounce off the plate

Vests and plates are designed to slow the decelleration and or spread the area  to defeat the desired energy transfer and bullets are designed to maximze energy transfer on specific types of targets.

Level III and IV vests WILL stop 12 ga. rifled slugs, as well as high-powered rifles using standard ammunition.

The level IV will even stop 166 grain 30.06 armor piercing ammo.

Quoted: Quoted: I can personally attest to the fact that a 12 gauge slug only penetrates about 1/2" into a tree. Yep, and I've shot 7.62 clear through 6" planks. It's Velocity people, slow slug - fast bullet. If I take a one ounce stone and throw it at you it will hurt. But if I take a much smaller stone and fire it at you with a catapult it going to cut you open and hurt like hell. Andy

But a .45/70 rifle is also the same weight and velocity as a 12ga slug.  Diameter and bullet construction are as big a consideration as velocity.  A .458/500gr Solid at 1500fps will also go through several boards or the skull of a Kodiak or Polar bear. But a .719/437gr at 1500fps will flatten out and break up.

Quoted: Join the 21st Century sum... www.firstdefense.com/html/Hard_Armor.htm Model AA4 - NIJ Certified Level IV Stand Alone "Stand-alone" plates are designed to stop ballistic threats using the plate alone. No ballistic vest is required for this plate, as all the energy and fragments are stopped in the plate. These plates are usually reserved for tactical operations or anti-terrorist work where the ammunition threat is unknown, or if the wearing of a vest is considered too cumbersome. Material:   Aramid Fiber Bonded AL98, Aluminum Oxide 98% Size   10" x 12" Curvature:   Triple Curve Front/Back:   Front Finish:   Nylon Cover Protection Level:   NIJ Certified Level IV Stand Alone Maximum Weight:   2.2 kg It will defeat the following threats: 7.62 × 54mm lead core ball ammunition, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters 7.62 × 54mm AP, Dragunov Sniper Rifle at 0 meters 7.62 × 51mm NATO ball ammunition at 0 meters 7.62 × 51mm AP M-61 at 0 meters 7.62 × 51mm Swiss Munitions AP (WC Core) at 0 meters 7.62 × 39mm mild steel core, AK-47 at 0 meters 7.62 × 63mm AP at 0 meters 5.56 × 45mm SS109/M855 at 0 meters 5.56 × 45mm M193 ball at 0 meters 5.45 × 39mm Russian ball at 0 meters 12 gauge slug at 0 meters

Well what will go thru it?  FMJ or tungsten core .300 Mag?  Surely the "proper" African rounds, especially the tungsten core ones.  

Would a .30-06 or .270 with FMJ? If the 7.62x54R steel core wont...

The level IV will stop a .270 no problem.

It will stop up to a 166 grain 30.06 armor piercing round.

As my instructor shouted..."VEST!"

Failure drill

AKA "Zipper"

Uh - huh.

Quoted: Quoted: [The speed of a 2000 lb. VW is 51 feet per second.  That's based on the old rule-of-thumb of 60 MPH = 88 feet per second. Therefore the VW would comprise 2000 lbs. X 51FPS = 102,000 foot pounds of energy.  Can anyone confirm this? I came out to 80877 ft/lb from here : http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/kineticenergy.swf 2000 lbs = 14,000,000 grains Remington gives 2,361 ft/lb of energy for a 12ga 1oz slug So getting hit by a VW going 35 MPH delivers 34x more energy then a 12ga slug. In order for it to deliver the same amount of energy the VW would have to be going .... 8.5 fps or 5.8 MPH

Ok... shoulder fire a weapon the shoots a VW.... I dare ya!