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300 mile range and 5 minute charges. Why no diesel hybrids? Why no diesel Eurovan? Dammit, I would buy a brand new TDI Eurovan. With RES and NAV. Because those silly Germans want to breathe polluted air and our EPA is so much smarter. I'd like a diesel VW Polo myself at 70+ MPG for commuting and short trips. I'd like a diesel motorcycle, I could get 90mpg! Believe it or not, the USMC has such a thing! Google it. |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? |
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Israel is testing a VERY good concept for electric car technology. 150mi batteries per charge, when it's time to get a fill up you take it to a local gas station and there's a automatic battery changing device. 3m to replace your batteries with new ones which then get charged. Here's a example of something I Think that would sell well in the US : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1xFXHOuBGA Not really. I personally spoke BetterPlace during a video conference a while ago and their proposals were laughable at best. Seemed like they hired some rookie CAD guys to model up a swappable battery pack concept that was completely unfeasible, prohibitively heavy, and expensive. After I asked them some feasibility questions and how would they would address these issues, I never heard back from them. BetterPlace knows how to address the media, get attention and how to apply for government grants. They were partnered with Nissan/Renault for EV pack swapping stations in Japan, but Nissan dumped them due to BetterPlace's inability to provide technical solutions. BetterPlace's proposal for swappable battery packs would require every OEM to redesign every vehicle and make the underbody pack area common with everyone else. The OEM's can't even make common small fuel tanks across their own lines due to the needs and wants of the customers. |
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Quoted: Quoted: You're in luck...I think there really would be a market for a very compact, minimalistic, short range, INEXPENSIVE, electric car (with regenerative braking) that would supplement gas cars, for a daily commuter vehicle. To work and stop at the store on the way home. If designed well, it may not need AC, power windows/seats/mirrors/back massagers/coffee makers/etc. 2 seats, room for an armful of groceries. It would have to charge from a standard wall socket, or at most from a refrigerator/AC/stove/dryer socket. I'd buy one for $7k or less. http://www.clker.com/cliparts/x/K/g/e/5/9/electric-golf-cart-oc-gc-md.png There's actually a "planned community" town not far from here that has golf cart paths everywhere and golf cart parking at most all the stores. For tooling around town in good weather, they work. |
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From what I hear that the "grid" can't support more than 10% of cars being plugged into it.
I'm not an electrician but my understanding is that those cars have require a deep charge and have a lot of pull that if a lot of them were to be plugged in most subdivisions wouldn't be able to handle the burden. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted: Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I would. |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I'm not personally interested, but if it would enhance the discussion, sure. (It sounds like it would.) |
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It will never be popular when a LEAF costs about $35k new and for comparison my 300 costs $30k new. For $5000 less I get a full sized car that is a viable way to travel across the country. The $5000 I save will buy me over 30k miles of driving at current gas costs before we even get into the question of, "Does the LEAF pay off in lower "fuel" costs?". So even if the "fuel" costs on the LEAF are lower than my 300 I doubt I'll ever see a payoff in the life of the LEAF when I'm starting $5000 in the hole.
If we compare a lower cost mid-size or compact car the LEAF makes even less sense. |
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Well, right now it's only viable as your second car. The range (and time required to charge) prevents most people from owning one as their only vehicle. And then, there's the price. I'm one of those "~40 miles a day" commuters, so I'd actually be well served by something like a Nissan Leaf as a commuter car, which has a range of ~100mi. As it stands right now (may change in the future, and probably would), charging it at night would in fact cost me less than gasoline. It would be rare for me to ever use a gasoline powered car, unless I was going on a road trip. Sounds good, right? Well... ...The problem is, the fucking things cost waaaaaay too much. The economics don't work out. Yeah, I'm saving a metric shit ton on gas, but I'm not saving any...money. So, there you have it. That's why they're not catching on. The people that are purchasing these things, broadly fall into these camps: 1. Those who love the technology. 2. Those who wish to be "green" (which is bullshit of course, but it's still a reason in their own head) 3. Those who have the money for a second car, and like the "cache" of owning an electric car - impress your friends, or whatever. 4. Those who want one for political reasons, perhaps as a middle finger to OPEC. Hell, maybe they buy one because they think it'll piss Republicans off. Whatever. Nobody good at math buys one to save money, however. |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. That's part of the point. Instead of refined crude oil alone, you can use energy from natural gas, nuclear, coal and hydro. There is no magic, but using electricity will give more options as to the ultimate source of the energy. We were using coal, but the environmentalists took care of that. There used to be miles of hopper cars lined up on railroad tracks leading to power generating plants. All gone, now, both the hoppers and many of the tracks. Progress! |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I would. So would I...Home-brewed bio-fuels in wide use could be a game-changer. |
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why aren't they catching on? how about a severely limited range and the enormous respective electricity bills needed to "fuel" them... Not so fast with the "enormous respective electricity bills". Time for facts, not speculation. To find out how much it costs in electricity for charging a BEV, we have to look the MPGe numbers on the electric vehicle. The Ford Focus Electric vehicle is listed at 100 MPGe. This MPGe is a rating of how far a vehicle will travel using 33.7 kWh of electricity, which equals the energy content of one gallon of gasoline. This MPGe number is a electric grid to wheel number, so all powertrain, frictional, and battery charging losses are accounted for. I'm being charged $0.16 per kWh (including taxes and surcharges) by DTE Energy for electricity at home. So 0.16 x 33.7 = $5.4 to travel 100 miles, or 5.4 cents per mile for the Focus BEV. The commercial EV charging stations being installed will charge a higher rate to meet their profit margin. A car getting 25 mpg at the current price of $3.30 per gallon costs $13.2 to go 100 miles, or 13 cents a mile. My F150 getting an average of 18 mpg at $3.30 per gallon costs $18.3 to go 100 miles, or 18 cents per mile. The Chevy Volt in pure electric mode get's 94 MPGe, so .16 x 33.7 = $5.4 to travel 94 miles, or 5.7 cents per mile (5.4/94). |
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I couldn't disagree more. and here is where I see your problem
Cheap, personal, electric-powered cars solely for commuting to and from work and short trips to get beer etc..
Hanging some new age shit that adds nothing and costs greatly off of an already incredibly successful idea is stupid and this is exactly what you are inferring and what people are ignoring when buying a new car. Take away the work electric from that sentence and you have the exact EXACT same thing except its cheaper, lighter, easier to maintain and will continue to do the one thing that its existence is based upon for hundreds of miles longer. no shit people arent switching. For me the way I would make an electric car successful is pretty simple, its simple because the advantages of an electric car are quiet substantial in many areas vs petrol, the problem is they are very simply not being exploited properly and more importantly they are not even close to being marketed into the type of brand that they are. Electric engines have an incredible gift. something that a petrol engine builder would sell his first born to be able to do and buildershave been trying just about everything short of that for about 100 years to try to recreat this ability hp sells cars, tq wins races. tq iswhat makes a motor great, its what makes a motor fast, what makes it fun,and powerful and versatile and everything good you want your motor to do. electric engines make their full tq at 1 rpm. in other words an electric motor is an instant on for torque. torque is equally at home winning races, sprinting from a green light, and hauling thousands f pounds of farm equipment. electric engines should begin by being introduced into proformance cars to add instant on tq and power. while there there they could also power the car when its not under heavy load either while at speed or crawling around town. We should be building the electric motor around a car that sells for the reasons people buy them, which is basically anything but cause its got an electic motor. how bout its fast as hell and gets good gas mileage. Or my truck can pull the earth off its axis but it gets the saem milage as a car half its size. that's how you sell them |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I would. Drop me a line. I'll be happy to explain how we do it. Basically we get waste oil from restaurants being very picky about what oil we do get. I know some guys personally doing the research on the algae based feedstock and that is a reality but needs some fine tuning. A UNH study showed that all of the liquid fuel for transportation in this country could be made using algae based feedstock living off all of the landfill waste in the country. Imagine gettting rid of landfill garbage and using it plus sunlight and water to make fuel. Cost of this would be far less than the war in Iraq. Makes too much sense and takes power away from politicians and takes away the need for our meddling in other countries. That's why we won't do it I guess. Back to how we do it. We use a 75 gallon/batch GL ecoprocessor made of two stainless steel drums welded on top of each other. We clean and dewater the oil with a centrifuge. We pump the centrifuge oil with an electric motor hooked up to a modified small block chevy oil pump. The clean oil goes into the reactor. It is heated by four siphonless immersion heaters (keeps the elements from being exposed and causing an explosion). Then we also put 16 gallons of methanol in a separate enclosed tank. Add 6# of sodium hydroxide (common lye) and mix well with an air powered mixer. After the oil reaches 122F and the methoxide is mixed we feed the methoxided into the oil and then let it mix for 2 hours. Add in 4 gallons of water, mix for 20 minutes and let settle over night. In the morning we drain off the glycerine (about 20 gallons) and all that is left behind is diesel fuel with residual methanol and soap. We boil the methanol off through a condensor and recover a couple gallons. Then we drain the 75 gallons of fuel into a 600 gallon settling tank. We let the fuel settle for a couple weeks after we get the tank full. The soap and residual glycerin settle and we pump off into a polishing filter and a 5 micron home water filter. We have our own little filling station with a meter. Co-op members pay $1.50 per gallon to help pay for expenses and pay back for the capital in the reactor. After the reactor is paid off we will drop the price to $1 per gallon. There are some legalities to this but as I understand as long as we mix it with regular taxed diesel there are no road taxes on it. Federal regulations can put a tax on it if it meets certain standards. If it doesn't then....it is just processed vegetable oil I guess. we make about 300 gallons a week. Right now we are stockpiling it for the Zombie apocalypse, 2013 civil war, or December 2012 economic collapse which ever comes first. |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I would. Drop me a line. I'll be happy to explain how we do it. Basically we get waste oil from restaurants being very picky about what oil we do get. I know some guys personally doing the research on the algae based feedstock and that is a reality but needs some fine tuning. A UNH study showed that all of the liquid fuel for transportation in this country could be made using algae based feedstock living off all of the landfill waste in the country. Imagine gettting rid of landfill garbage and using it plus sunlight and water to make fuel. Cost of this would be far less than the war in Iraq. Makes too much sense and takes power away from politicians and takes away the need for our meddling in other countries. That's why we won't do it I guess. Back to how we do it. We use a 75 gallon/batch GL ecoprocessor made of two stainless steel drums welded on top of each other. We clean and dewater the oil with a centrifuge. We pump the centrifuge oil with an electric motor hooked up to a modified small block chevy oil pump. The clean oil goes into the reactor. It is heated by four siphonless immersion heaters (keeps the elements from being exposed and causing an explosion). Then we also put 16 gallons of methanol in a separate enclosed tank. Add 6# of sodium hydroxide (common lye) and mix well with an air powered mixer. After the oil reaches 122F and the methoxide is mixed we feed the methoxided into the oil and then let it mix for 2 hours. Add in 4 gallons of water, mix for 20 minutes and let settle over night. In the morning we drain off the glycerine (about 20 gallons) and all that is left behind is diesel fuel with residual methanol and soap. We boil the methanol off through a condensor and recover a couple gallons. Then we drain the 75 gallons of fuel into a 600 gallon settling tank. We let the fuel settle for a couple weeks after we get the tank full. The soap and residual glycerin settle and we pump off into a polishing filter and a 5 micron home water filter. We have our own little filling station with a meter. Co-op members pay $1.50 per gallon to help pay for expenses and pay back for the capital in the reactor. After the reactor is paid off we will drop the price to $1 per gallon. There are some legalities to this but as I understand as long as we mix it with regular taxed diesel there are no road taxes on it. Federal regulations can put a tax on it if it meets certain standards. If it doesn't then....it is just processed vegetable oil I guess. we make about 300 gallons a week. Right now we are stockpiling it for the Zombie apocalypse, 2013 civil war, or December 2012 economic collapse which ever comes first. Start a thread man!!! I am about to pull the trigger on a diesel suburban!!! I want to , no NEED to know this stuff!!! |
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Cost, range, cost and range. First Post. They are a different beast, they will not work for everyone. Eventually, if tech gets to where a power storage device (battery, super cap, whatever) can store enough energy (safely) to travel several hundred miles, and can be recharged quickly, and the cost is comparable to ICE driven vehicles, they will catch on much better. Personally, my marker is when they can hit about 150 miles average/minimum on a charge that can charge at home in say 6 hours or so. Ideally, a vehicle like that would be fine for the majority of commuters. I'd love to see something like a towable generator that runs off of gas or diesel so that you could rent one, hook it up, fuel it up, and drive across the country on it. I've seen one that a hobbyist built and used with an electric Rav 4. Neat idea. |
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why aren't they catching on? how about a severely limited range and the enormous respective electricity bills needed to "fuel" them... Not so fast with the "enormous respective electricity bills". Time for facts, not speculation. To find out how much it costs in electricity for charging a BEV, we have to look the MPGe numbers on the electric vehicle. The Ford Focus Electric vehicle is listed at 100 MPGe. This MPGe is a rating of how far a vehicle will travel using 33.7 kWh of electricity, which equals the energy content of one gallon of gasoline. This MPGe number is a electric grid to wheel number, so all powertrain, frictional, and battery charging losses are accounted for. I'm being charged $0.16 per kWh (including taxes and surcharges) by DTE Energy for electricity at home. So 0.16 x 33.7 = $5.4 to travel 100 miles, or 5.4 cents per mile for the Focus BEV. The commercial EV charging stations being installed will charge a higher rate to meet their profit margin. A car getting 25 mpg at the current price of $3.30 per gallon costs $13.2 to go 100 miles, or 13 cents a mile. My F150 getting an average of 18 mpg at $3.30 per gallon costs $18.3 to go 100 miles, or 18 cents per mile. The Chevy Volt in pure electric mode get's 94 MPGe, so .16 x 33.7 = $5.4 to travel 94 miles, or 5.7 cents per mile (5.4/94). It's always funny when people think electric cars will cause their electric bill to skyrocket. As long as electric rates stay around $0.10 (I pay just under that) to maybe $0.20, an electric car can be more economical in terms of cost-of-operation. Cost of ownership is another beast, but when it comes to operation, you only have the electricity you use to charge, no oil changes, no filter changes, no sparkplugs, no wires, far less frequent brake service because regenerative braking does a lot of the work. When battery costs and energy density can get an EV up to a couple hundred miles per charge, and cost about the same as a comparable gas vehicle, I think we'll see them catch on more. I do not think they will replace ICE powered vehicles, not for a VERY long time. Charging time and impact from environment (extremely cold environs) will limit people's options. Gas and diesel will remain around for a VERY long time. |
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IMO, one of the keys to make the electric car "catch on" in America in the short term is to attract commuters by offering tax incentives to businesses for the installation of charging equipment at the business. Park-N-Charge (I'd call it) at work would have the effect of DOUBLING the range of an electric car. In a single stroke, the electric car would be an attractive alternative for SUBURBAN commuters. Most suburbanites like me are beyond the round trip range of the current technology being offered. There is already a gas station on almost every corner. Why would this make me want to buy an electric car? The tech sucks, that's the bottom line. |
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Cost, range, cost and range. Did anyone actually read what I wrote? 
I mean, beyon the Subject? I read what you wrote. Are you a communist? Why should the government subsidize anything? How about let the market decide? Good Lord man, petroleum is cheap, clean to burn, and US territories have metric shit gallons of it. A good plan would be to stop gov regulation and let the fracking begin! Drill in US waters, ANWR, etc.. . Overnight oil prices would plummet and we could get back to an American way of life. How do you think friggin electricity is produced? God's own methane? Yep. |
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I think it's both funny and telling that California, where green ideas go to die, has recently instituted a tax for people who drive electric vehicles. You see, those people don't pay gas taxes but their cars still create wear and tear on roads, so some measure was necessary to see that they pay their fair share... Yes, it has to happen at some point. |
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Well contrary to popular belief, the electric car has NO political affiliation. My brother (who is a staunch Conservative) drives a Nissan Leaf and loves it. The beauty of it is when he sees a Prius with an Obama sticker on it and tells him/her that they are hurting the environment driving that gas guzzler. 
And another fact that people are forgetting is there is another recharging method that does not rely on oil... Solar. That is what he uses. If the electric car is not for you then... its not for you. That is the beauty of this country... we have choices and do what we want. Watching some of you get bent on other people's choices is entertaining. That would be a great point in a world where the government was funding electric cars. Let electric compete without government assist, and I'll agree with you. |
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You mean "Catch on fire?" (sorry, could not resist). I agree though: MOST car trips/commutes are very very short. Electric cars would work very well for this. Before someone calls me a hippy/environmentalist (I am neither), I simply believe it is stupid for Americans to spend a single penny in oil profits to OPEC. Hugo Chavez? Iran? WHY buy ANYTHING from people who hate us? Oil is a commodity and even if most of it comes from U.S./Canadian/Mexican sources, we are still benefitting OPEC by buying it. When it comes to energy, the BEST energy to buy is energy that is 100% made in the USA. Right now, that ain't oil. Screw OPEC. Buy anything EXCEPT oil/petroleum. I'm not about to screw myself over just to drive an electric car |
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Cost to operate a Chevy Volt
Eric Bolling (Fox Business Channel's Follow the Money) test drove the Chevy Volt at the invitation of General Motors. For four days in a row, the fully charged battery lasted only 25 miles before the Volt switched to the reserve gasoline engine. Eric calculated the car got 30 mpg including the 25 miles it ran on the battery. So, the range including the 9 gallon gas tank and the 16 kwh battery is approximately 270 miles. It will take you 4 1/2 hours to drive 270 miles at 60 mph. Then add 10 hours to charge the battery and you have a total trip time of 14.5 hours. In a typical road trip your average speed (including charging time) would be 20 mph. According to General Motors, the Volt battery hold 16 kwh of electricity.. It takes a full 10 hours to charge a drained battery. The cost for the electricity to charge the Volt is never mentioned so I looked up what I pay for electricity. I pay approximately (it varies with amount used and the seasons) $1.16 per kwh. 16 kwh x $1.16 per kwh = $18.56 to charge the battery. $18.56 per charge divided by 25 miles = $0.74 per mile to operate the Volt using the battery. Compare this to a similar size car with a gasoline engine only that gets 32 mpg. $3.19 per gallon divided by 32 mpg = $0.10 per mile. The gasoline powered car cost about $15,000 while the Volt costs $46,000. So Obama wants us to pay 3 times as much for a car that costs more that 7 times as much to run and takes 3 times as long to drive across country. REALLY? |
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This is the real deal no bullshit on High Power Electric Motors for Automotive Applications from a guy that builds the fucking prototypes.
The battery and inverter technology isn't ready for prime time use in a car. The fact is that the way that Americans use cars is bad for electrics, our cars are too heavy, too big, and we drive way too far to use electrics efficiently. Add on the fact that we like to pile on mile after mile and drive a car until it rusts out and it is pretty much a no go right now. There has been some huge advances in batteries and in inverters in the last year, but it isn't enough yet. The battery charge time and life span is a huge limiting factor. Japan can get away with electrics because the drive times are shorter, the cars are lighter and smaller, and the way vehicles are taxed means that people buy new cars every few years. We do the exact opposite. Where Electrics have a place right now is coupled with diesel motors for some bad ass mother fucking Hybrids. The Medium and Heavy Duty truck segment is huge, has the capitol to invest in the tech, and the newer motors like what we are building suit Large truck and Heavy equipment really well. A large Diesel motor has enough extra energy to recharge a battery pack with ease, the vehicles are all ready heavy so the weight ins't as big of an issue, and the commercial and industrial sectors have stringent Maintenance requirements. Also the cost to operate the vehicles is already large enough that servicing the batteries or hybrid system are not as big of a deal. The other Major niche for high end electrics is in motorcycles. While they are smaller and lighter than a car, people do not expect them to go for hundreds of miles in one trip. Most people who ride for fun keep the trip to under an hour or so before they have to get off the bike. A pure electric street fighter or super bike is insanely fast, smooth, and like nothing I have ever been on before. The riding position dictates that you don't want to go very far, so a small battery works pretty well. Furthermore people don't rack up the miles on anything but GoldWings so the life span is some what negated. In the not so distant future smaller electrics will be paired with larger bike engines on the big touring bikes. Fastest Electric Motorcycle in the World Took first at Isle of Man Both of these companies are doing fantastic work, and I feel really privileged to have been able to work with them to put these products out. |
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Cost, value and range.
As long as gas is under $4.00 a gallon and electric cars Are pushing $35,000 and up and won't take you to grandma's house and back on Thanksgiving they will never sell to the masses when you can buy a car for under $20,000 that will get 40 MPG on the highway. |
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because it costs more to maintain, and is a looser in the long run cost wise.
oh, and you cant do a road trip in it, 300 miles then you are down for hours for a recharge fuck that. a VW diesel jetta can get 40-50 mpg. thats pretty fucking good IMO no need to dick with the battery cars with that as a alternative. |
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I think anyone who's had a dead car battery can give you a good reason.
That, and the fact that they have a bad rap–– Catching fire, horrible reliability, associated with eco-mentalists and therefore, liberals; lack of supporting infrastructure, the thought––and risk––of getting stranded without power, etc Now, a diesel-electric truck or SUV? I'd be on that faster than a fat kid on a donut. |
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Realistically, it is cost. For me, an electric car is more about having a cheap run-about that I could use in town and to go to and from work. The problem is that I would also have to keep a gas vehicle in order to retain my long distance and 4x4 ability.
That's the problem. Unless you are a biker, most people don't stock more cars than they have drivers. |
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For all you tree hating polluters, I had this for a few days last week. Eat my electrons. 
http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x166/CnAPhot/Vehicles/FordFocusEVatmyhouse.jpg Is it hard to hold an AR while you hugging making love to that tree?
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Initial cost, range, time to recharge, battery replacement and if businesses install plug in units they will certainly charge a premium price to plug in that negate any 'advantage' over a gas engine. Not to mention that as your batteries get older your range gets shorter. Try taking a trip thinking you may just barely make it then come up short. |
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Fundamentally, it's a stupid idea. The energy to charge the batteries has to come from somewhere. There is no magic. Quoted:
Batteries are gigantic, heavy, unreliable, toxic, and extremely expensive. Unless that changes, no pure electric car will ever work. Even if it did, what would be the effect on our already overloaded and aging power grid? Converting only 10% of the cars in the US would (rough guess) double the residential electricity load. Combined with Obama's promise to "bankrupt the coal industry" and "necessarily skyrocket" energy prices... why are the Democrats pushing electric cars again? I'm more inclined to support building more power plants (coal, nuclear, whatever) and enhancing the electrical infrastructure than I am inclined toward funding the enemy while I drive to and from work. On the other hand, find a way to put $1.00 gas (just a low number for illustration purposes) or similarly cheap home-grown fuel and I'm all-in. I had a very lengthy debate on the merits of electric vs. diesel vehicles with another engineer and took the side of diesels. I had plenty of documentation etc. but still got my ass handed to me. After looking at the studies i was convinced. Even when you count the cost of batteries and power and factor in the pollution, the Prius still comes out slightly ahead of the diesel on a price per mile basis. There was a breakeven point to that though. For that argument to work it meant the Prius drivers had to accumulate at least 250k miles on their vehicles to get the cost per mile down to the same as a diesel car. The big bomb happens when I throw in the fact that I am using homebrewed biodiesel at $0.75 per gallon. There is no comparison. I drive a huge diesel truck to and from work every day and am paying far less per mile than with my MR2 at 40mpg. Our biodiesel coop can produce 1300 gallons per month of top grade fuel. So, there's your answer: diesels or diesel hybrids running waste stock (algae based) biodiesel at less than a $1 per gallon. Is this the answer you are looking for? Would you like to know more? I would. Drop me a line. I'll be happy to explain how we do it. Basically we get waste oil from restaurants being very picky about what oil we do get. I know some guys personally doing the research on the algae based feedstock and that is a reality but needs some fine tuning. A UNH study showed that all of the liquid fuel for transportation in this country could be made using algae based feedstock living off all of the landfill waste in the country. Imagine gettting rid of landfill garbage and using it plus sunlight and water to make fuel. Cost of this would be far less than the war in Iraq. Makes too much sense and takes power away from politicians and takes away the need for our meddling in other countries. That's why we won't do it I guess. Back to how we do it. We use a 75 gallon/batch GL ecoprocessor made of two stainless steel drums welded on top of each other. We clean and dewater the oil with a centrifuge. We pump the centrifuge oil with an electric motor hooked up to a modified small block chevy oil pump. The clean oil goes into the reactor. It is heated by four siphonless immersion heaters (keeps the elements from being exposed and causing an explosion). Then we also put 16 gallons of methanol in a separate enclosed tank. Add 6# of sodium hydroxide (common lye) and mix well with an air powered mixer. After the oil reaches 122F and the methoxide is mixed we feed the methoxided into the oil and then let it mix for 2 hours. Add in 4 gallons of water, mix for 20 minutes and let settle over night. In the morning we drain off the glycerine (about 20 gallons) and all that is left behind is diesel fuel with residual methanol and soap. We boil the methanol off through a condensor and recover a couple gallons. Then we drain the 75 gallons of fuel into a 600 gallon settling tank. We let the fuel settle for a couple weeks after we get the tank full. The soap and residual glycerin settle and we pump off into a polishing filter and a 5 micron home water filter. We have our own little filling station with a meter. Co-op members pay $1.50 per gallon to help pay for expenses and pay back for the capital in the reactor. After the reactor is paid off we will drop the price to $1 per gallon. There are some legalities to this but as I understand as long as we mix it with regular taxed diesel there are no road taxes on it. Federal regulations can put a tax on it if it meets certain standards. If it doesn't then....it is just processed vegetable oil I guess. we make about 300 gallons a week. Right now we are stockpiling it for the Zombie apocalypse, 2013 civil war, or December 2012 economic collapse which ever comes first. What do you do with all the glycerine? |