DWI enforcement guru here.  I have never lost a case whether the offender was completely cooperative or outright refused everything.

I can usually tell if if I have a drunk by approaching the violator, asking for DL and insurance, having him sit in my patrol car, and talking with him for about 10 seconds.  So, you can't legally refuse to do those things, yet I can ollect a HUGE amount of evidence from those simple acts.  How do you think we gather evidence when the drunk is laying on a stretcher after a motor vehicle accident?  As much as defense attorneys have attempted to spin it, you simply do not have to have sobriety tests to get a conviction.

Once the officer has a decent history of DWI arrests/convictions, basically, you can get a lot of convictions by simply clearly articulating your observations of the offender's eyes, smell, movements, speech, etc.  These are usually very subtle, but obvious when you have experience.

99/100 drunks are NOT like you see on "COPS" where they are falling all over the place and puking.  That goes into another topic all together...in-car video cameras.  These were sold to many departments as primarily DWI enforcement tools.  They are only tools for the defense.  Why?  A untrained jury will see a person on tape that DOES NOT look like the "drunk" they have in their mind from watching COPS and other TV shows.  Therefore, they must be sober...

A good defense attorney will get the tape from the traffic stop and try to get a jury dumb enough to make a decisoin based on their ignorance of what a real drunk looks like.

As far as sobriety checkpoints, if there is no evidence of intoxication from the inital contact(see above), you will not be asked to do sobtriety tests.

Quoted: Quoted: Another mastermind that conveniently forgets the 5th protects against "UNREASONABLE", and when the state legislatures and the State courts and the Federal Courts have all determined, that once you agreed to a contract with the state regarding your driving privileges, the state can take what actions the people of that state have determined by constituional process, to enforce the contract YOU agreed to. I think that you have the 4th and 5th ammmendments mixed up check the bill of rights and see if the word UNREASONABLE is mentioned in the 5th ammendment. as for the origional topic why don't you just ask Ted Kennedy?  He knows a lot more about this subject than any Arfcommer.

Your right it is the 4th, I keep getting interuppted.  My kid is coming home from overseas and the plans for his party weent to poop.  Grandmas house is central to most of the family but she NOW thinks it will be raining and too many people.  (Even if it rains, everybody will fit) but I digress, the 5th Amendment Self Incrimination still goes to the fingerprint model and rules and, also in almost all states the contract between driver and state freely entered into when the driver decides to drive covers the submission of specimens.

I guess that means illegal aliens don't have to submit since they never made the agreement because they never got licenses??

In any case like most legal quesions, it comes down to knowing what YOUR state laws are. Getting I think "the law says  X" from a guy in TX who is wrong, for a guy in Pennsylvania is fraught with mindboggling consequences for the guy that believes him in Oregon.

I picked up this trick from an old guy who used to drink and drive on almost a daily basis.  He walked just fine but always kept a cane in his car.  I never knew what it was for until the first time we got pulled over. When the cop asked him to step out he used his cane to help him stand, then apologized for moving so slow and mumbled something about how hard it is to get around since he took that fall  last year and hurt his hip.  It was an Oscar-winning performance.

The cop just looks at him barely standing there and all thoughts of Field Sobriety Tests just fade away.  I mean, there's no way this guy could stand up straight with both arms stretched out to touch his nose or walk a straight line heel-to-toe.  After a few minutes of chit-chat, the cop told us to be careful and sent us on our way.

So the last time my father got a new cane, I took his old one now keep it in my truck.  As of yet I haven't had to use it, but it's nice to know it's there if I ever need it.

Quoted: I guess that means illegal aliens don't have to submit since they never made the agreement because they never got licenses??

That's a whole nother issue.  Since i dont know how to explain the SFST's in spanish, they dont have DLs, they usually give a fake name and address i usually just impound their car for unlicensed driver and send them walking.

If your going to be a crook you're better off never applying for a DL.

Quoted: Doesn't seem worth the trouble if you are sober.

it's not.   and as far as i'm concerned, anyone driving drunk is a piece of shit for putting me and everyone else on the road in danger.  

Quoted: I picked up this trick from an old guy who used to drink and drive on almost a daily basis.  He walked just fine but always kept a cane in his car.  I never knew what it was for until the first time we got pulled over. When the cop asked him to step out he used his cane to help him stand, then apologized for moving so slow and mumbled something about how hard it is to get around since he took that fall  last year and hurt his hip.  It was an Oscar-winning performance. The cop just looks at him barely standing there and all thoughts of Field Sobriety Tests just fade away.  I mean, there's no way this guy could stand up straight with both arms stretched out to touch his nose or walk a straight line heel-to-toe.  After a few minutes of chit-chat, the cop told us to be careful and sent us on our way. So the last time my father got a new cane, I took his old one now keep it in my truck.  As of yet I haven't had to use it, but it's nice to know it's there if I ever need it.

You're gonna get a lot of flak for this.  LOL.  I'm not gonna lecture you (others will pop in any minute now to do so), but my personal opinion is that it's not worth the risk to yourself or the public.  You'll never regret waiting a few hours before driving, but you can spend a lifetime regretting a DUI on your record or worse if you hurt someone.  Then again, being over the limit in most states means just drinking a measly 2-3 beers (or 2 glasses of wine) with dinner.  I've known many people who drive just fine after such casual drinking.  As mentioned earlier, 99% of people who drink and drive make it home without incident.        

Quoted: You're gonna get a lot of flak for this.  LOL.  I'm not gonna lecture you (others will pop in any minute now to do so), but my personal opinion is that it's not worth the risk to yourself or the public.  You'll never regret waiting a few hours before driving, but you can spend a lifetime regretting a DUI on your record or worse if you hurt someone.  Then again, being over the limit in most states means just drinking a measly 2-3 beers (or 2 glasses of wine) with dinner.  I've known many people who drive just fine after such casual drinking.  As mentioned earlier, 99% of people who drink and drive make it home without incident.

If you re-read my response you'll see that I never said that I drive drunk .  Rather, I have the cane as part of my "non-adversarial" method for protecting my rights.  It makes it easy for me to pass on cooperating with the officer without seeming like an asshole.  It turns "Up yours, Nazi!! I refuse to touch my nose!" into "Gee, I don't think I can do that, officer, what with my disabilities and all."

It's the same reason I always carry a briefcase in the car.  Like many here, I've had cops bully me into an unwarranted search, and when you say "no" they search anyway.  So if I'm carrying anything I don't want the cops to see, I keep it in the briefcase on the passenger seat where I can merely spin the combination dial before they walk up.  "You want to look in the briefcase?  Gee, officer, it appears to be locked and I don't recall the combination right now."

Javaman, exactly what items would you have in the car that you are trying to hide?  Any officer that could not recognize a drunk that is acting w/ a cane needs more training.  Making furtive movements towards the passenger seat and then pulling the locked briefcase card has been played before in the drug courier game.  That will get you a K9 there for sure, and waste more of your time. Frankly, cops don't just ask to search people on a whim, they usually have several indicators that clue them in to illegal activity.  I'm calling


As for sobriety tests, read my above post.  A cane isnt getting you out of anything.

I've arrested illegal aliens for DWI.  I speak some Spanish and have a translator on my in-car computer.  I've also arrested def people.  I just do the instructions on paper.


 As for the .08% limit being to low, I can tell you it is not.  I have a portable breath tester in my car and have done some "off duty testing" with it.  By the time I hit .08%, I am buzzing pretty dang good.  

Quoted: Javaman, exactly what items would you have in the car that you are trying to hide?  Any officer that could not recognize a drunk that is acting w/ a cane needs more training.  Making furtive movements towards the passenger seat and then pulling the locked briefcase card has been played before in the drug courier game.  That will get you a K9 there for sure, and waste more of your time. Frankly, cops don't just ask to search people on a whim, they usually have several indicators that clue them in to illegal activity.  I'm calling

So let's see - just because I don't feel like submitting to yet another unwarranted search and fishing expedition that means I'm a criminal?  After all, no one would refuse a cop's request to search unless they had something to hide.  Are the rest of you buying this bullshit?

The whole reason for the Bill of Rights is to protect citizens from you.  You're a disgrace to LEOs everywhere.

A cane isnt getting you out of anything.

Sorry to burst your "I'm the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, UltraMega JBT" bubble, but it already has. A few times, in fact.  I guess I'm just lucky that none of these Big City Po-Leese are as smart as your typical Super Cop from Misourri.

Say you know you're drunk.

You walk home.

Hauled in for Public Intoxication.

Stay at the bar/restaurant/establishment.

Hauled in for tresspassing.

Lose lose.

Party at home, or be sure to know that the local chief got caught sucking prick in the local bar's bathroom.  You might get let off if you know that tidbit.

Quoted: Quoted: Javaman, exactly what items would you have in the car that you are trying to hide?  Any officer that could not recognize a drunk that is acting w/ a cane needs more training.  Making furtive movements towards the passenger seat and then pulling the locked briefcase card has been played before in the drug courier game.  That will get you a K9 there for sure, and waste more of your time. Frankly, cops don't just ask to search people on a whim, they usually have several indicators that clue them in to illegal activity.  I'm calling So let's see - just because I don't feel like submitting to yet another unwarranted search and fishing expedition that means I'm a criminal?  After all, no one would refuse a cops request to search unless they had something to hide.  Are the rest of you buying this bullshit? The whole reason for the Bill of Rights is to protect citizens from you.  You're a disgrace to LEOs everywhere. A cane isnt getting you out of anything. Sorry to burst your "I'm the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, UltraMega JBT" bubble, but it already has. A few times, in fact.  I guess I'm just lucky that none of these Big City Po-Leese are as smart as your typical Super Cop from Misourri.

ooooooooooooooooooooooo, the "disgrace" card got thrown... ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Really?

Sorry to burst your "I'm the All-Knowing, All-Seeing, UltraMega JBT" bubble, but it already has. A few times, in fact.  I guess I'm just lucky that none of these Big City Po-Leese are as smart as your typical Super Cop from Misourri.

Did you forget that you typed this?

Quoted: So the last time my father got a new cane, I took his old one now keep it in my truck.  As of yet I haven't had to use it, but it's nice to know it's there if I ever need it.

If truly concerned, go talk to a lawyer ahead of time. What people claim on an internet board and the realities of your jurisdiction are completely different.

If you line up counsel before you need it you will save significant money.

I have known people to walk away from DWI/DUI charges with no money owed and no court costs because their lawyer jumped in fast enough. 99.9% if you are drunk and driving (which I do not advocate) then do not give consent to testing. If you can pass just one FST you'll be on home plate with decent counsel. Figure out what tests are accepted in your jurisdiction, then practice. That's what alcoholics do.

I've seen enough career drunks walk away from DUI trials with paltry $500 court cost fines that I no longer believe that government traffic enforcement is about anything other than money. The dumbass amateurs in December are the ones that wind up paying $10k in legal bills plus losing their licenses, going to State-Trooper (overtime $$$$$) delivered classes for $1k and paying all kinds of professional help bills before getting their licenses back.

Instead of addressing the problem (alcoholism) the government uses DUI as an excuse to collect more money. How many non-fatality DUIs were in prison the last time you checked? It's not about punishment or correction, its about the revenue.

Quoted: Did you forget that you typed this? Quoted: So the last time my father got a new cane, I took his old one now keep it in my truck.  As of yet I haven't had to use it, but it's nice to know it's there if I ever need it.

Let me clairify - I have not used my fathers cane yet.  I was referring to seeing my buddy use his a few times when dealing with the police.  And it worked great.  That's why I picked one up myself.

You still haven't addressed your statement about calling the K9 on someone just because they don't want to open their locked briefcase so you can go on an unwarranted fishing expedition.  Obviously anyone who values their privacy or civil rights is a "drug courier."  I guess this is how you "punish" us lowly serfs for having the gall to rebuff your demands to search us for no reason.

ETA - I developed my attitude toward cops from dealing with a few that used to sit near my high school and hassle the kids on a daily basis.  Chicken shit tickets, unwarranted searches, the works. One cop in particular liked pull everyone out of the car and search everything thoroughly, including the trunk.  If you left the keys in the ignition, he'd just take them and unlock the trunk for himself without asking.  Sometimes he'd find some pot and arrest the kids.  I guess most would plead out because any smart lawyer would have torn that search apart in court.

One day this particular asshole pulled my friend over for no reason and started his usual routine.  My buddy had taken the keys and put them in his pocket just out of habit, but when Officer Porky saw they were gone demanded the keys so he could look in the trunk.  I told my buddy to leave them in his pocket.  Officer Porky got extremely upset and threatened to arrest me for interfering  with an officer.  He then told my friend if he didn't open his trunk right now he'd get the crowbar out of his car and pry the trunk open!!!

I told the cop "Go ahead, and then you'll have to explain the pry marks to the judge."  I thought this asshole was going to blow a gasket!!!  He wrote my buddy a ticket for everything he could think of, leveled several threats at me saying he'll be waiting to catch me driving to school, then left.  That afternoon I went down to the police station and filled out 4 pages of complaint forms and we never saw that cop around the school again.

So that's why I use the "Gee, I just can't comply with you right now officer.  And if you force it, it'll leave marks you'll have to answer for" method.  Because there are cops out there that like to do things like trying to intimidate citizens into allowing unwarranted searches, and then calling the drug sniffing dog to punish those citizens who don't roll over so easily.

in maryland, you can refuse everything, they will lock you up but release you in the morning, they cant force you to do anything.

they will take your license on the spot too, but you can have a temp in a few days, for work. then when you go to court they give you 2 choices no license for a year or the built in breathalizer in your car, which cost about 100 per month. personally if i have had 1 beer i would take the test, if i had 2 ( rapidly ) i would probably refuse to take it for 55 mins, to let the level go down a little more.

but i dont drink more than 1 beer per hour and drive

First the "disgrace" card and now the "serf" card comes up.  Seems there is a dip in someone's self-esteem as of late.  Need a hug or someone to tell you are special and can grow up to be whatever you want to be?

Quoted: First the "disgrace" card and now the "serf" card comes up.  Seems there is a dip in someone's self-esteem as of late.  Need a hug or someone to tell you are special and can grow up to be whatever you want to be?

What's with all these "cards?"  Sounds like you're a few short of  a full deck.  

Quoted: Quoted: First the "disgrace" card and now the "serf" card comes up.  Seems there is a dip in someone's self-esteem as of late.  Need a hug or someone to tell you are special and can grow up to be whatever you want to be? What's with all these "cards?"  Sounds like you're a few short of  a full deck.

- Nope...I'm certainly playing with a full deck.  I think the same cant be said for all the serfs around here.  You know, the people that would rather belittle themselves in an attempt to be the "victim" rather than recognize legitimate advice and reasoning behind certain actions.

Quoted: Nope...I'm certainly playing with a full deck.  I think the same cant be said for all the serfs around here.  You know, the people that would rather belittle themselves in an attempt to be the "victim" rather than recognize legitimate advice and reasoning behind certain actions.

Are you capable of actually adding something to this discussion, or are you just going to continue your pattern of name calling? So far you've offered up exactly zero information that's pertinant to the topic at hand.  Obviously the intellectual capacity of this chronic Police Apologist is quite limited.

Quoted: Are you capable of actually adding something to this discussion, or are you just going to continue your pattern of name calling?

Maybe I should throw out a few "damn JBTs" so i can be considered a "contributing" person in this thread.  And far as name calling goes, I'm merely repeating what you called youself, serf.

So far you've offered up exactly zero information that's pertinant to the topic at hand.  Obviously the intellectual capacity of this chronic Police Apologist is quite limited.

- Someone comeup with that for you or do you write yor own material?     I've already answered a question or two in here seriously.  Once people come up with some legitimate comments other than the typical pissing and moaning, I might be inclined to answer a few more.

"Police Apologist " around here simply means you are explaining why something is done without all the melodramatics of the people bitching about the police. So let me thank you for the compliment.