In 1952, Gen. Omar Bradley, head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, believed the West required 19 divisions to defend the Middle East and that [b]Israel could supply two[/b]. He also expected only three states to provide the West air power in Middle Eastern defense by 1955: Great Britain, Turkey and [b]Israel[/b]. Bradley's analysis was rejected because the political echelon decided it was more important for the United States to work with Egypt, and later Iraq. It was feared that integration of Israeli forces in Western strategy would alienate the Arabs.

[b]Israel's crushing victory over the combined Arab forces in 1967 caused this view to be revised[/b]. The following year, the United States sold Israel sophisticated planes (Phantom jets) for the first time. [b]Washington shifted its Middle East policy from seeking a balance of forces to ensuring that Israel enjoyed a qualitative edge over its enemies[/b].

Israel proved its value in 1970 when the United States asked for help in bolstering King Hussein's regime. Israel's willingness to aid Amman, and movement of troops to the Jordanian border, persuaded Syria to withdraw the tanks it had sent into Jordan to support PLO forces challenging the King during "Black September." [b]In addition, the Soviets knew that all the squadron leaders of the Sixth Fleet landed in Israel to coordinate activities[/b].

This was less than three years after Israel had mistakenly attacked the USS Liberty!

By the early 1970s it had become [u]clear that no Arab state could or would contribute to Western defense in the Middle East[/u]. The Baghdad Pact had long ago expired, and the regimes friendly to the United States were weak compared to the anti-Western forces in Egypt, Syria and Iraq. [b]Even after Egypt's reorientation following the signing of its peace treaty with Israel, the United States did not count on any Arab government for military assistance[/b].

The Carter Administration began to implement a form of strategic cooperation (it was not referred to as such) by making Israel eligible to sell military equipment to the United States. The willingness to engage in limited, joint military endeavors was viewed by President Carter as a means of rewarding Israel for "good behavior" in peace talks with Egypt.

Though still reluctant to formalize the relationship, strategic cooperation became a major focus of the U.S.-Israel relationship when Ronald Reagan entered office. [b]Before his election, Reagan had written: "Only by full appreciation of the critical role the State of Israel plays in our strategic calculus can we build the foundation for thwarting Moscow's designs on territories and resources vital to our security and our national well-being."[/b]

Reagan's view culminated in the November 30, 1981, signing of a Memorandum of Understanding on "strategic cooperation." On November 29, 1983, a new agreement was signed creating the Joint Political-Military Group (JPMG) and a group to oversee security assistance, the Joint Security Assistance Planning Group (JSAP).

- continued -

The JPMG was originally designed to discuss means of countering threats posed by increased Soviet involvement in the Middle East. It has placed increasing emphasis, however, on bilateral concerns about the proliferation of chemical weapons and ballistic missiles.

The JSAP was formed in response to Israel's economic crisis in the mid-1980s. It is a binational group that meets annually in Washington to examine Israel's current and future military procurement requirements. It also formulates plans for the allocation of U.S. Foreign Military Sales credits in light of current threat assessments and U.S. budgetary capabilities.

[b]An example of cooperation between the branches occurred January 23, 1987, when Congress designated Israel as a major non-NATO ally. This law formally established Israel as an ally, and allowed its industries to compete equally with NATO countries and other close U.S. allies for contracts to produce a significant number of defense items.[/b]

Now let's hear it from the Man, the Great One Himself, [i][b]Ronaldus Magnus[/b][/i]:

[b]“Since the rebirth of the State of Israel, there has been an ironclad bond between that democracy and this one.”

— President Ronald Reagan[/b]

In April 1988, President Reagan signed another MOU encompassing all prior agreements. This agreement institutionalized the strategic relationship.

[b]By the end of Reagan's term, the U.S. had prepositioned equipment in Israel, regularly held joint training exercises, began co-development of the Arrow Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile and was engaged in a host of other cooperative military endeavors.[/b]

Since then, U.S.-Israel strategic cooperation has continued to evolve. Today, these strategic ties are stronger than ever. Israel is now a de facto ally of the United States.

Eric The(KissThis!)Hun[>]:)]

Micronesia:

[img]http://www.mccoytravel.com/micronesia/images/yap-micronesia-dancers.jpg[/img]

[img]http://go.hrw.com/atlas/norm_map/oceania.gif[/img]

Micronesia is a group of islands located in the Pacific Ocean between New Guinea and Guam.

raf -


LAST TIME, dude. Beyond this, if you STILL don;t get it, I gotta assume you don't want to get it.

THEOREM: If we bless Israel, God WILL bleass us.

FACT: We HAVE blessed Israel.

FACT: God IS NOT blessing us(see itemization of God's judgemnt above.)

CONCLUSION: Theorem is FALSE.

It's BASIC logic.

Post from garandman -

No, Sir, it's scripture![:D]

'Righteousness exalteth a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.'

And it surely is righteous to protect innocent men, women, and children in Israel from being overwhelmed by a enemy that knows no sense of mercy.

But, I know for certain that you do not equate what Israel does on the West Bank with what the Palestinians do elsewhere, right?

Jesus would [u]want[/u] you to protect Israel.

Eric The(Understanding)Hun[>]:)]

[soapbox]  [soapbox] [soapbox] [soapbox]

This is my opinion only so flame away.


Let's leave out the God blessing us for blessing Israel argument.

Leave out the feeling guilty about the Holocoust arguement.

Now then, let's look at that region.  What do we need from there. [size=6] OIL, OIL, OIL!!!!!!![/size=6]

But you say, "Israel sits on that only spot of land out there without any oil."  True.  

Now listen, all those Arabs hate Israel and hate our guts.  They would hate us anyway even if Israel wasn't there.  We're the "Great Satan" that was supposedly humbled on 9/11.  Those camel sodomizers were dancing in the streets like it was Mardi Gras that day.

Here's the point.

They hate us and Israel so much they have to buy lots of weapons so they can dream about destroying us and Israel.  Plus fight each other.

So what are they going to sell to buy these weapons?  Sand, camel sh!t.  NO.  Hey, how about pumping out all that oil out of the ground, sell it to us, buy some fighter jets from us, then burn U.S. and Israel's flags in the street and tell how much you hate us.  Just keep sending the oil.

Israel creates a controlled instability over there.  

[b]Israel's Assistance to the US in The Gulf War:[/b]

The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait dramatically illustrated the potential of regional states to threaten vital U.S. interests. Israel again demonstrated its reliability as it maintained a low profile and absorbed the Scuds.

Israel's posture reflected a deliberate political decision in response to American requests. Nevertheless, Israel did aid the United States' successful campaign to roll back Iraq's aggression.

- The IDF was the sole military force in the region that could successfully challenge the Iraqi army. [b]That fact, which Saddam Hussein understood, was a deterrent to further Iraqi aggression.[/b]

- By warning that it would take military measures if any Iraqi troops enter Jordan, Israel, in effect, guaranteed Jordan's territorial integrity against Iraqi aggression. Jordan's continued existence as a buffer state between Iraq and Israel is indispensable for the maintenance of regional stability.

- The United States benefitted from the use of Israeli-made Have Nap air-launched missiles on its B-52 bombers. The Navy, meanwhile, used Israeli Pioneer pilotless drones for reconnaissance in the Gulf.

- Israel provided mine plows that were used to clear paths for allied forces through Iraqi mine fields.

- Mobile bridges provided by Israel were employed by the U.S. Marine Corps.

- Israel Aircraft Industries developed conformal fuel tanks that enhance the range of F-15 aircraft. These were used in the Gulf.

- Israeli recommendations, based upon system performance observations led to several software changes that make the Patriot a more capable missile defense system.

- General Dynamics has implemented a variety of Israeli modifications to improve the worldwide F-16 aircraft fleet including structural enhancements, software changes, increased capability landing gear, radio improvements and avionic modifications.

- An Israeli-produced helicopter night-targeting system was used to increase the Cobra helicopter's night-fighting capabilities.

- Israel also produced the canister for the highly successful Tomahawk missile.

- Night-vision goggles used by U.S. forces were supplied by Israel.

- A low altitude warning system produced and developed in Israel was utilized on Blackhawk helicopters.

- Other Israeli equipment provided to U.S. forces included flack vests, gas masks and sand bags.

- Israel offered the United States the use of military and hospital facilities. U.S. ships utilized Haifa port shipyard maintenance and support on their way to the Gulf.

- Even in its low-profile mode, Israeli cooperation was extremely valuable: Israel's military intelligence has focused on Iraq much more carefully over the years than has the U.S. intelligence community. Thus, the Israelis were able to provide Washington with detailed tactical intelligence on Iraqi military activities. Defense Secretary Cheney said, for example that the U.S. utilized Israeli information about western Iraq in its search for Scud missile launchers.

- continued -

[b]During a visit to Israel May 30, 1991, Defense Secretary Cheney said: "We think that the cooperation that we were able to engage in during the war in the Gulf...emphasizes how important the [U.S.-Israel] relationship is and how well it works when put to the test."[/b]

Critics have argued that the U.S. desire for Israel to maintain a low profile to facilitate holding the coalition of Arab states opposing Iraq together reflects a diminution of Israel's strategic value; however, Israel was never expected to play a major role in hostilities in the Gulf. American officials knew the Arabs would have to be prepared to defend themselves. Moreover, the fact that it was possible to build this U.S.-Arab coalition at the same time U.S.-Israel strategic relations are closer than ever, illustrates the two are not contradictory. The United States can continue to strengthen its ties with Israel without worrying about jeopardizing ties with the Arab states.

Eric The(HadEnough?)Hun[>]:)]

Iraq and Iran want to half their oil production.
I say: left their religious centers free and SEIZE OIL WELLS in:

-Libia
-Saudi Arabia
-Iraq
-Iran
-Algeria
-Oman
-Qatar

Arabs will have no monopoly of oil anymore (but they can still pray to the Mecca...) and the issue of breaking our balls with their absurd demands of conditionig who can be our friends and who is not "otherwise..." will end forever.

Do it before they have no nukes, because if they can get them, we're gonna pray five times a day Allah...

For the mediterranean sea, if US oil companies will share their gains and oil from mediterranean sea with NATO countries, you will see France and UK turning their "NO" for actions against Iraq in "YES"... oil is oil, and any EU elector that get gas half price will be grateful for this...

Such a plan requires a beachead in M.E. And there is nothing better than Israel to cover the US/Allies back from being stabbed by Arabs...

Ok... is political Sci-fi... but up to when?

(Waiting for US attack to Iraq... this will change the world balance if Bush jr. has the guts...)

Would it then ALSO be "righteous" to protect innocent Somalis, Rwandans, Libyans, Ethiopians, Chileans, Brazilians, the entire rest of the world?? Are we then to become the world's policeman?? Or are you and God racially inequitable asserting that ONLY protecting Israelis constitutes "righteousness?"

I'm QUITE sure I've read posts by you AGAINST the concept of the USA as the worlds policeman. If you are gonna build a foreign policy off of "righteuosness exalts a nation" then limit is to pretty much ONLY Israelis, I'd say you've got some problems in your logic. And I do [}:D]

THE JEWS PEOPLE ARE FROM THAT TRIBE OF JUDAH MOST WHITE FOLKS IN THE USA ARE FROM THE OTHER NINE TRIBES OF ISRAEL THAT WERE REMOVED FROM ISRAEL LONG AGO. THEY ARE BROTHER AND SISTERS THAT IS WHY WE MUST STAND UP FOR THEM.AND NOT BE CAUSE THEY DO THINGS FOR US AS AMERICANS.DO YOU KNOW THAT MOST OF UK IS FROM THE TRIBE OF EPHRAIM AND MANASSEH AND BRITAN IS A TWO PART WORD MEAN COVTED MAN THAT IS WHERE THE BESSING FROM GOD CAME FROM FOR THE USA AND UK ...IF SOME ONE WAS KILLING YOUR COUSIN WOULD LET THEM GET BY WITH IT AND BY THE WAY I THINK THE UN IS THE NEW WORLD ORDER AND NOT THE FRIEND MOST PEOPLE THINK IT IS THAT JUST MY TWO CENTS

Post from garandman -

Yes, the United States should do everything within its power to make certain that innocent people do not suffer.

'Who is my neighbor?' the young lawyer asked of Jesus. Remember, His reply?

It is whomsoever the Lord brings in front of you, and for better, or worse, Israel is in front of us.

But, garandman, answer the facts I have stated about the value of Israel as an ally of the US without resorting to religion. That was SteyrAUG's question for us!

Eric The(AllThisWorkForNothing?)Hun[>]:)]

So we SHOULD be the world's policeman????

Funny - at the time Christ made that statement, Israel was doing NOTHING, and has NEVER done anything in their entire history to relieve anyone's sufferring but their own, even in their political heyday. "Physician, heal thyself."




I care LITTLE for the political reasons for or against supporting Israel. I place ya'll in charge of that. [}:D]

My interest in is dispelling the RELIGIOUS notion that Scripture commands us to support the political entity called "Israel" today.

Above you were asking for "Divine quotes" stating that the WTC was the judgment of God. That's a SILLY request. God stopped issuing "Divine quotes" 2,000 years ago.

On the other hand, you can look at why and in what ways God has executed judgment in teh past, and draw some conclusions about the present.

In contrast, "dispelling the RELIGIOUS notion that Scripture commands us to support the political entity called "Israel" today " is EASY.

Two Scripture references -

[i]Matt. 3: 9 - Don't think that being a descendant of Abraham is of any significance to God: for God is able to take these stones, and create descendants of Abraham.[/i]

Comment: If being Jewish by heredity merits no special favor by God, that means God is NOT commanding us to give them special favor due to heredity.

[i]Rom. 2: 28 - 29 For he is NOT a Jew which is one outwardly, in the flesh (i.e. heredity) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly, whose heart is changed (via salvation) whose praise is NOT according to man's standards, but according to God's[/i]

Comment: All peoples, of all times, of all nations, whose heart has been changed thru faith in Christ constitute "Israel"

END OF DISCUSSION (as far as God is concerned)


(Program Note: This is where the Israel apologists go SILENT and REFUSE to address the SPECIFIC Scriptures I have posted. Feel free to do so again)

yeah really..the lil brown-nosers...It's nice to know if SHTF they would send in their Calvary! LOL Probably all 20 of um!

I believe that GOD favors both America and Israel.  I believe he favors us by our faith in GOD.  And I think that since Israel has Faith in GOD, they are Favored as well.

I know this is getting bad because several people have spoken saying, "THERE IS NO GOD."  

America as a devout nation is merely God's Trumpet.  Isreal May be the God's Chosen people.  But he blesses all those who bless him.  So stop fussing and let the Lord Work.
There is nothing you can do about it in any case.

Benjamin

Grandman your right, you ran em off with your  incontrovertible scriptural truth.


Does it work every time?  HE HE HE

FOR THE RECORD....

...it is NOT "my" Scriptural truth. I'm merely the fingers typing SOMEONE else's truth. [:D]

And YES, when God's Word is consulted on a subject, pretty much the discussion IS over (if we are willing to listen to it)

Of course, interpretations can differ, and good people can disagree, but I beleive Scripture is plain as day on this subject.

Behold!
[img]http://www.avarewase.org/map/images/mark.jpg[/img]

St. Garandman the Evangelist

This in NO WAY obligates us to do ANYTHING. We didn't let a LOT of people in the US back then. NO other country took them either. How come Africa, the USSR, South America, Canada, etc. are NOT responsible for their well being before or after 1937?

It is NO secret NATO created Israel. And we weren't even obligated to do that. We do NOT owe the European Jews:

- Admission into our country
- A country of their own
- Protection/Aid of any kind
- Money

If they have a beef, it is with the Western Europeans WHO WE FOUGHT. And moral obligation to European Jews that "might" exist was paid for many times in BLOOD.

Armdlbrl - You sure as hell think like a liberal.

All that for the bargain price of $133.132 billion. What a deal.

And apparantly Eric and Armdlbrl are FINE with this. Although I can't begin to understand WHY? So far they have not offered anything of consequence to justify this gross expenditure.

What if this sum $133.132 billion, was spent on securing our borders and targeting terrorists coming into the US?

So Israel supports us in the UN by voting with us. Not bad for $133.132 billion, but are they mostly protecting US policies that benefit them financially?

But MORE IMPORTANTYLY, the US needs to get OUT of the UN and who cares how Israel votes after that.

C'mon Eric these are pretty damn weak. Israel helps us in the UN, the same UN that is gonna guarantee global communism...

$133.132 billion is a SMALL PRICE?!?! We could have spent half that securing out own borders to more effect and the other half in US friendly states like Jordan with greater results.

I DO understand that, but YOU pay for it or YOU go fight. If someone attacked the Church of England I would NOT send them $133.132 billion to help fight a Holy War.

I believe this was once valid but is no longer true. I believe oil prices would be lower if we were allied with ONLY moderate Arab states. Besides we coulda bought a shitload of oil for $133.132 billion.

OK, here is what we have so far.

Eric came up with some very minor contributions that Israel has made in the way of assistance to the US. They in NO WAY compare to the genuine support of countries like England who we send FAR LESS cash to.

But many people seem to feel a religious obligation/alliance with Israel. That is fine. YOU cut them a check. If your God wants you to help, YOU pay for it. Go get a second job and do Gods will. But f*ck you if you think a dime of my tax dollars should go to your Holy Crusade.

Here is the figure I'm talking about $133.132 billion. A tenth of that would be offensive. We can be nice to Israel and offer them the same kind of moral support they offer us for a lot less money. If this was a two way equitable relationship, NO ONE except for those with a religious/racial ideology would resent Israel.  

WHOA!!!! Kool!!!!! Auggie goes FULL AUTO!!!

Go get 'em Steyr.


Major Murphy -

Slow down on the "sainthood for Garandman" petition. AS jarhead can tell you, in addition to being anti-Semitic, I also have "hates all Catholics " on my resume.  [}:D]

That may snag my nomination for sainthood.

[}:D]

(j/k - I LOVE Catholics. I think EVERY Protestant should own one. REALLY MAN - I'm just kidding. Don't hate me cuz I'm stupid [BD])

Post from SteyrAUG -

Sez you! SteyrAUG, sez you!

I happen to think that it's been damn well worth it.

And so did and do the leaders of this country, including the one I admire the most, President Reagan.

So, you don't think that voting in the UN alomost in lock step fashion with the US doesn't mean that Israel is our friend.

Well that's good. I don't suppose you mind that Great Britain was only, hmmm, 15-20-25 percentage points behind Israel in those years. After all, Great Britain is our only true friend and ally, right?

And the assistance given by Israel to the US during the Gulf War and beyond, no big deal right?

Well, SteyrAUG, those are just your personal opinions, as a private citizen.

And you are well-entitled to them.

I, on the other hand, accept the opinion of someone like Pres. Ronald Reagan, and I believe you will find his quotes concerning Israel somewhere in the stack of material I've provided.

Ah, [i][b]what if, what if?[/b][/i]

Who knows? You are assuming that if the money wasn't paid to Israel it would have been used for this one project, but you and I both know that it wouldn't be. It would go down some other dark welfare whole and disappear into someone else's hands.

You need to run for office on a platform calling for the elimination of any assistance to Israel, and should you get elected on that platform you can proceed to cut this money from the budget you send Congress.

The good news is that we can do both - continue to assist Israel and take care of our borders so long as we have a President and a Congress who understand that borders need to be secure.

BTW, if we had simply abandoned the 'space race' with the Soviets in the mid-1960s, just think how much money we would have saved....

And how much 'poorer' we would be without it.

Eric The(Reasonable)Hun[>]:)]

Total US economic and miltary aid to Micronesia, 1949-1999:  $1.7 million.  Voted with us 100% of the time in the UN in 1999.

Total US aid to UK:  $2 billion.  Voted with us 80% of the time.

Total US aid to Israel:  $72 billions.  Voted correctly 90% of the time.

Assuming 250 votes in 1999, I calculate the following:

[b]Cost of a Miconesian vote:  $6,800.
Cost of a British vote:  $10,000,000.
Cost of an Israeli vote:  $320,000,000.
Cost of warm fuzzies for American Jews and Christian fundamentalists for helping His chosen people:  priceless.[/b]

[;)]

Eric pay very close attention...

$133.132 billion

And you think we get/got our moneys worth?!?

Ok, I see the problem now.

Eric, you are just in love with Israel. If the figure was $133.132 trillion, that wouldn't bother you either.

We could be nice to Israel, even help them FOR A LOT LESS FRICKING MONEY.

I'm glad you find $133.132 billion to be acceptable. But I bet if we spent 1/1000th of that on something like Hillaries health care for everyone you'd be up in arms. I was against hillaries Socialist Health Care program, but at least it would have benefitted US citizens directly. Yet you advocate and fully support sending $133.132 billion to Israel.

You can love Israel, that is fine. But YOU pay for it. I'm sick of my tax dollars, and that of my parents, grandparents and future children being siphoned off to another country.

US tax dollars should be spent in the United States.

Eric, what's up with the double posts??! Didn't you tell me that's considered "spamming"?

Take your nitro and sit down in your easy chair!  [:P]

DaMan  

US God's trumpet? By those standards here is God's trumpet;

[img]http://www.hitler.org/hitler.jpg[/img]

And let us enjoy his tune;

[img]http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/oribelsen01.gif[/img]

God seen it fit to not only leave Hitler be born, but to keep him from being killed.

Chosen people you say? Chosen to fill the pits and become bars of soap.

As for the palestinians, they dont have the opertunity to call the holocaust card every time they kill someone.

Any way you split 133 billion buying shit, you still end up with a pile of shit.

The Jews deserve 133 billion as much as Palestine would. Screw them both.

You spent 133 billion and you all ended up with nothing, time to put the past in the past and forget Israel. Your oil prices will drop, you'll have enough money to pay for actual homeland security, or you could send all that money over the border and Canada will replace all the tap water in the USA with Beer.

Woooohooooo!!!!

Note to self: make sure fund manager and investment analysts are NEITHER American Jew nor Christian fundamentalist.

[}:D]

Second note to self: make sure debt collectors are either American jew or Christian fundamentalist - preferrable BOTH.

[}:D] [}:D]

Alright,

What is this UNREASONING ISSUE about MONEY. Lets put it into an historical context shall we??

First the Nation Of Isreal was reestablished in the 40's.  That puts the Geo Political Scene like this.

 West Germany/EAST GERMANY.
 SOVIET UNION Consisting of (E. Ger,Hungary,Poland,Lithuania,Chechozlavakia,Latvia,Estonia,Romania) with attempted influence in IRAN,IRAQ,SAUDI,SYRIA,JORDAN,EGYPT,LIBYA,LEBANON. Now then, what does Israel Give THE US.  

  THEY MAINTAINED THE BALANCE OF POWER WITHIN THE MIDDLE EAST. ON THREE Seperate Occasions a large war was fought with the Intent of Destroying ISREAL (EGYPT,SYRIA,LEBANON) with constant pressure throughout.

So lets get one thing straight and put actions with their respective owners.  

THE US GIVES ISRAEL MONEY, AND HAS FOR A LONG TIME.  BUT THAT IS NOT THE REASON ISRAEL IS ATTACKED, THE REASON ISRAEL IS ATTACKED IS BECAUSE CERTAIN PEOPLES OF SYRIA,LEBANON,ETC. CHOOSE , DECIDE, MAKE THE DECISION, TO ATTACK ISRAEL. THE US'S MONEY DOES NOT CAUSE THAT. Unless you think that if we stop bankrolling Israel they will be destroyed and then we will have peace???  

What is Goodness, what is Friendship, what is love of humanity and that which is human and good??  What is the basic character that makes a man stand in line with his friends and go toe to toe with someone???  That certainly is not tangable in monetary terms, and at times it may appear pointless.

 The ALAMO, FRIENDS DECIDED,Made the DECISION, to STAY!!!! IT COST THEM DEARLY, EVEN DAVEY CROCKET AND JIM BOOWIE WERE KILLED.  THAT IS FRIENDSHIP FOR YOU.  What the hell do we know about establishing a nation , NOTHING I SAY, NOTHING, WE KNOW NOTHING FOR STRUGGLING FOR SURVIVAL, WE KNOW NOTHING OF IT MY ASS, WE HAVE HAD NOTHING OF THAT MY ASS.

 Who needs friends, who needs love, who needs any of these NON MONETARY THINGS??? WHO WOULD STAND AND FIGHT FOR A DREAM THAT IS ISRAEL, WHO WOULD DO IT FOR A DREAM THAT IS AMERICA. WHO WOULD DIE FOR THE REPUBLIC. WHO WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS LIKE TO HAVE 6,000,000 OF YOURS DESTROYED FOR NO REASON SAVE THEY DIDN'T LIKE YOU.  SO MAYBE JUST MAYBE THE US HAS THE HONOR TO RESPECT THE FACT THAT WE IGNORED THEIR CRIES IN 1938 AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE WE WILL NOT IGNORE THEM AGAIN.

It's not only the money, SteyrAUG!

Some have never served their country, but are more than willing to send their fellow countrymen (Americans)to fight for a foreign nation they favor!

DaMan

[img]http://www.fmv.ulg.ac.be/schmitz/Holocaust/oribelsen01.gif[/img]

[size=6]THAT IS WHY!![/size=6]

Post from SteyrAUG -

As I [u]always[/u] do, Brother.

Check!

I suppose we must have, 'cause the folks who know this sort of stuff never seem to complain.

The [u]only[/u] folks that I ever hear complaining about the amount of money given to Israel, [u]except[/u] for the anti-Israel lobby on the AR15.com Board (a great group of patriots, BTW) are, well, to put it mildly, not a very good group of folks.

Hallelujah! Praise the Lord!

Love is such a strong word, SteyrAUG, we've only known Israel for less than 4000 years, it's too early in our relationship to speak of love. Let's just say a 'crush.'

Well, that figure is not do-able, so of course it would bother me.

I would assume that you have a problem with the $5,000,000,000.00 (that's Five [u]Trillion[/u]) that has been paid in 'transfer payments' for financing the 'Great Society' since 1965?

What precisely did we get for that Five Trillion smackers?

An illegitimacy rate that rivals those of Third World countries, a permanent welfare class, permanent brood mothers, destruction of the black lower class families, more single parent families, lowered expectations for everyone, increased crime rates, increased education costs, increased drug use, increased sense of entitlement where none existed before, increased resentment, lowered standards for everything and everyone in the United States, and not a whole lot more to
show for it!

We pizzed away $5,000,000,000.00!

At least you can say that Israel has bought itself the best fighting force in their neck of the woods, with aircraft made in Ft Worth, with electronics made in the US, with weapons purchased (at least for a while!) from the US.

Oh yes, and bulldozers bought in the Midwest
(sorry, [b]5subslr5[/b], I almost forgot!).

I'd say we've gotten a very fair return on our investment!

And that's an opinion shared by a lot of folks.

Probably so, but who knows?

Hillary's Health Care was impinging upon 1/7th of the annual US Gross National Product, I do believe that that is a trifle more than $133.132 billion over the period of time for Israel.

- continued -

[img]http://ussliberty.org/g/lg/lg0031.jpg[/img]

Instability in the region, 13 dead, and few big holes, Cost 133 billion.
Loosing American lives to an ally, priceless.

But socialism is socialism, SteyrAUG, you must fight it wherever it rears its ugly head.

Actually, SteyrAUG, I've never voted to send Israel anything. Nor have I ever lobbied for them to receive anything. I'm just accepting your figures as correct for the sake of our discussion.

But I do know that in military procurement budgets for the US Armed Services, we sometimes see hammers going for $500.00 each, and toilet seats for B-1 bombers listed for $600.00 a pop.

Does this pizz me off? Not really, because I have to put my trust in the military officials that they really, really do need hammers and toilet seats of a very special kind to do their duty effectively.

Since it's not my ass depending on the hammer or the toilet seat, I will defer to their judgment in such matters, so long as I have no reason to doubt their best efforts in getting the most bang for the buck. Their asses are the ones which will be shot in the event that hammers or toilet seats fail.

When the same folks tell Congress that Israel needs such and such amount to defend itself, whatever, I will defer to their judgment so long as I have no reason to doubt their best efforts in getting the most bang for the buck.

If Israel were attacked, do you have any doubt that our leadership would hesitate in sending American troops over there to defend Israel?

Well, then you should want Israel to be as strong as possible to make certain that they are not attacked and needing our help.

Sorry, but that's not the way a representative democracy such as ours works.

I'm not happy with the current welfare state we have in the US, but until such time as my opinions have the force of law, I'll continue to pay my taxes.

Hmmmm, have you ever figured out how much of that $133.132 billion never left this country?

That would be interesting to know.

Eric The(Realistic)Hun[>]:)]

Ben0001 -

Alls I can say to that is.....

[whacko]

Yup, thats why, because someone on another continent decided to knock off a few Jews, all of America has to give billions to Israel so that they can have there own piles filled with Palestinian women and childre... errr terrorist.

The USA dint kill the Jews, a bunch of dead people did. And can you blame them? Look what happends when you stick all of them together in one place, caos.

So lets say ISREAL wasn't there and the SOVIETS WERE ABLE TO CONSILIDATE THEIR POWER IN THE MIDDLE EAST LETS SAY THIS HAPPENED IN THE SIX DAY WAR. SO FOR ARGUMENT LETS SAY THAT ISREAL WAS DESTROYED IN 67. NOW THEN OVER THE NEXT 5 YEARS THE SOVIETS STABILIZE THE REGION AND THEN WHAT, WHAT IS THEIR NEXT TARGET??? WHERE DOES THE SOVIET UNION GO NEXT (AFTER ALL THEY WERE AFTER TOTAL WORLD DOMINATION) DO THEY GO TO ENGLAND??? TO THEY CROSS THE BEARING STRAIGHT??

YOU WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT THE COST WAS , YOU ALSO WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT IT HAS BOUGHT. SUCH IS THE PRICE OF PREVENTION. You never get to see what you PREVENTED.

Benjamin

Scarecrow, you are an idiot.[:D]

Eric The(ToPutItMildly)Hun[>]:)]