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Link Posted: 9/24/2017 2:59:24 PM EDT
[#1]
That is a higher stated washout than any of the airlines I have been talking to.
Link Posted: 9/24/2017 3:14:33 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
That is a higher stated washout than any of the airlines I have been talking to.
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The only place I know that really ever approached that was Great Lakes, but that was by design.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 2:27:14 AM EDT
[#3]
This is just a generalization and certainly isn't always the case, but in the AF and Navy, the guys that get helos are generally the guys that graduate in the bottom of their class.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 4:09:19 AM EDT
[#4]
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Awhile back I posted an article quoting the AF Chief of Staff lobbying the FAA and airline execs for this exact thing. Theory being that if the hours requirement is lowered, the airlines will have a larger hiring pool. Thus decreasing demand for ex-mil pilots, and in doing so, help alleviate the AF's pilot shortage. Wonder if that came in to play.
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Every single military pilot I know that got out, got out to get out, not because of air lines. Most become airline pilots because they qualify.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 4:12:43 AM EDT
[#5]
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Military multiplace aircraft have tiered positional hours requirements.
Makes sense to fleet up from position to position.

But don't abandon it all together.

Instead of 1500 how about 750.
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If somebody is going to fly air line transport, maybe they really should have an Air Line Transport license.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 4:17:22 AM EDT
[#6]
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Without exception, the former helicopter pilots I flew with at Northwest were the smoothest pilots we had on the line. Yet, myself, like all other rotor guys were looked down upon by a couple of the pilots assigned to do hiring interviews. Interesting to me was that the one person who was the most condescending, I learned after I was hired came onboard with 1400 hours of C-172 time and less than 250 hours of multi-engine piston experience in her log book.

What is interesting to me is that right now, the three regional airlines my retired buddies are teaching at are all experienceing 35-50% wash out rates with both new hires and Captain upgrades.

It's not just the flight hours folks, it's also the lack of a real world foundation of experience needed to draw upon when a pilot is in the training pipeline.
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It is also because the training is much much less than it used to be.

Training has been drastically reduced. at the air lines.

They used to teach systems for 2 weeks. Now you get a DVD at home and take a test on the first day of training.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 7:55:12 AM EDT
[#7]
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If somebody is going to fly air line transport, maybe they really should have an Air Line Transport license.
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What a concept!  actually being certificated for what your are doing.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 1:42:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Several things about the 1500 hr rule.

1) In essence the RJs are deeply pissed that the party is over and they have to finally start raising pay off starvation wages and improving quality of life.

2) The 1500hr rule in my opinion was to keep out the daddy's boys and ATP wonder children. These people had enough drive to get their ratings. But hanging around to get the 1500 hours isn't happening. These are the same people you used to hear "I love flying so much I would do it for free."

3) Wage gains made over the last few years are going to start backpedaling if ALPA and the other unions don't get their act together. Never going to happen because ALPA doesn't care about RJ pilots.
Link Posted: 9/25/2017 1:51:24 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
Several things about the 1500 hr rule.

1) In essence the RJs are deeply pissed that the party is over and they have to finally start raising pay off starvation wages and improving quality of life.

2) The 1500hr rule in my opinion was to keep out the daddy's boys and ATP wonder children. These people had enough drive to get their ratings. But hanging around to get the 1500 hours isn't happening. These are the same people you used to hear "I love flying so much I would do it for free."

3) Wage gains made over the last few years are going to start backpedaling if ALPA and the other unions don't get their act together. Never going to happen because ALPA doesn't care about RJ pilots.
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The Mainline was prior to 2001 full of guys who were too good to fly turboprops and tiny jets, and after 9/11, too scared to hold the line on scope.

Every regional pilot would be happy to watch their regional go out of business, if there was a corresponding growth of jobs at Mainline. The reality was that as late as 1990, a 70 seat "RJ" was a TWA/NW/DL DC-9-10 or -30. The Mainline B scaled two generations of pilots to Mesa and even worse Comair.

ALPA should have as a classified annex to their campaign plan either driving regional wages up to mainline standards, or capturing those flight decks at mainline. Otherwise, its a perpetual whipsaw.
Link Posted: 9/29/2017 6:35:53 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


Every single military pilot I know that got out, got out to get out, not because of air lines. Most become airline pilots because they qualify.
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How many years ago was that?

I ask because it is the same today. The driving motivation is to see big blue in the rearview. The airlines just happen to be there waiting.
Link Posted: 9/29/2017 9:15:17 PM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
In 1999, competitive mins for Air Wis were 3500 hours.
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Quoted:
In 1999, competitive mins for Air Wis were 3500 hours.
In 2003, when I was in college, we had CFIs with 2200TT/500ME who couldn't get a call from a regional.  In 2006, before I went the AF training, I couldn't get looked at with 700TT/100ME (not complaining).  A year or so later, my former students we're getting hired with a wet commercial-multi certificate.  One of he first books I read about aviation, was about a dude that decided to become an airline pilot after answering a American Airlines help wanted add in the "sky magazine" in the seat back.  They paid for his training and put him into the right seat of an airliner...this was sometime in the 60s.  dude was never furloughed and rode the good wave.  Interesting how times change.  

In all fairness, back in the 80s/90s/early 2000s, there were a lot more entry level jobs to be had.  Every Tom, Dick and Harry, had started up a night freight operation to run cancelled checks.  I remember shotgunning my apps out to Ram Air Freight, AirNet, Priority Air, Air Tahoma (yikes!!  ), etc...  Thanks to Check 21, many of the companies have now gone belly up and killed those entry level jobs that got guys to that 3500 hour mark.  

Quoted:
Instead of raising pay, the airlines are showing if they whine enough, they can push through regulatory changes to keep their cost of labor in line, and try to restore some negotiating leverage.

Internationally, the mechanism is the MCL, where guy gets very little flight time, and nearly no solo flight time, but lots of sim and observation. Its cheap, and for the airlines, good enough.
This is why, if it's not already there, every union should be getting it into their contract, a statement about no MCL or anything similar.  2 human pilots (3 or 4 for long haul), all ATP holders.
Link Posted: 9/29/2017 9:59:53 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:


In 2003, when I was in college, we had CFIs with 2200TT/500ME who couldn't get a call from a regional.  In 2006, before I went the AF training, I couldn't get looked at with 700TT/100ME (not complaining).  A year or so later, my former students we're getting hired with a wet commercial-multi certificate.  One of he first books I read about aviation, was about a dude that decided to become an airline pilot after answering a American Airlines help wanted add in the "sky magazine" in the seat back.  They paid for his training and put him into the right seat of an airliner...this was sometime in the 60s.  dude was never furloughed and rode the good wave.  Interesting how times change.  

In all fairness, back in the 80s/90s/early 2000s, there were a lot more entry level jobs to be had.  Every Tom, Dick and Harry, had started up a night freight operation to run cancelled checks.  I remember shotgunning my apps out to Ram Air Freight, AirNet, Priority Air, Air Tahoma (yikes!!  ), etc...  Thanks to Check 21, many of the companies have now gone belly up and killed those entry level jobs that got guys to that 3500 hour mark.  



This is why, if it's not already there, every union should be getting it into their contract, a statement about no MCL or anything similar.  2 human pilots (3 or 4 for long haul), all ATP holders.
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One hundred percent concurrence. There are a thousand things the unions should be doing. Killing the MCL and ab initio should be a top priorities.

As a person who fought the fight in the trenches for ALPA and the Teamsters, and who will never see a major, it's frustrating to see so much work from literally generations of pilots totally wasted because the current leadership doesn't seem to care about the profession.
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