One soldiers career and another soldiers life ran out - prematurely.

[X]

Well, dumbass, it seems they did a well enough job in afghanistan.  They must do SOMETHING right.  Or are you just bitter because you were never able to do anything useful in life?

Are we doing that well in Afganistan?

Lets take a closer look at that, Shall we.

Getting in Is the easy part, The Russians did'nt have any problem getting in, The question is, what do you do when you get there?

Does anybody really think that we are going to bring democracy to Afganistan?

Are we going to get into the business of propping up Karsi, like we did with the leaders if South Vietnam? Because if we don't, Karsi will be lucky to survive the next year.

The Afgan military (if you can call them a military) are so corrupt and disorganised as to make the ARVN look like good soldiers.

As I write this, Iranian Special Forces are in Afganistan, rallying, training and arming the local Shite's for a partisan war in the spring. The afgans are 15th century men and they fight like it. they will regroup, hide out and wait till spring to start giving us real problems.

They will probably, adopt a stratigy of bombings and attacks inside Afganistan's cities, So as to be sheltered from American air power and to be able to fade back into the cities population quickly.

They might even go for a mini Tet offensive, in order to prove to the population and the world media, that american troops cannot protect the population of Afganistan.

Most of the Taliban and Osama's leadership was able to get out of the country.

we only control a couple of air ports and small parts of the larger cities. The country side is still pretty much the wild west and in control of the local warlords.

When a predator drone fired a missle at some suspected Taliban leaders, or maybe Osama himself, it took us how many days to get out to the sight, to check it out?

Right now the special forces are on a tight leash in country, because the Pentagon keeps having to answer questions from the media about SF operations gone wrong, Were we end up killing the wrong Afgan's (not that I really think we are killing the wrong Afgan's, because you can depend on the Afgan,s to claim we killed the wrong guys, even if Osama himself was standing in the middle of them.) but it does a lot of damage in the world media. Has anybody noticed that every male killed by the isreali's is supposed to be taking his pregnant wife to the hospital, to give birth. such is the Muslim propaganda machine, propped up by the world media.

Can it be to long before they organize 12 year olds to throw rocks and molitov coctails at American soldiers. What happens when we start blowing away 12 year olds on world TV?

Are we going to allow the the herion production to continue, in the intrest of not making the people in the Afgan country side turn agaist the Karsi goverment?

Will we be able to sustain the effort in afganistan, in the event of a larger Middle East war, or will we pull out again, as we have to shift forces to other theaters.

I would not say that just having boots on the ground and calling in a few air stikes, constitutes Victory in Afganistan.



The war in Afganistan has just begun.

Spoken like someone who learned from VN.

This is not going to be like Desrrt Storm.

I feel sorry for the Wall Street Journal reporter - even though it goes with the territory - if somebody had to die, I could think of a few talking heads that deserve it more.

The opposition's use of our own media is not a new thing, but personally, I'd like to see the coverage under much tighter restrictions, even though I know there are practical limits to our control over them.   I just think it's wrong for US media to be doing infomercials for the other side.

I'm behind our forces there and think they are doing a hell of a job.  But I think they're going to be misused and abused by politics and politicians.

Ok, LEO on the left, Military on the right. If the ball hits you, you are out. If you catch it, the guy who threw it is out. Sound about right...

[b]Rather than write it all again, I went to the other thread, and grabbed my last post[/b]
SF, just read through your update on the previous page. We all know that as time goes by, more facts always come out.(that's why in my first post I suggested we wait for facts) If, as it appears, the S.O. was informed of this excercise, then we have an even bigger problem than before! On the one hand, the duputys statement that the sf always stayed in the woods. On the other hand, the sbi statement that one of the soldiers offered the deputy a "bribe" in pineland money. Did he see the money? I'm not real sure it matters,(could be a diversion), as he saw a weapon. The more info being released, the more it seems to reinforce the opinion of those of us who believe the training should not be held in a civilian population. I do declare, I have never seen the military, (or any other branch of the Fed.), come out and announce changes so quickly after an incident.(BTW, if the safety record is as you suggest, it is astounding) I notice that neither you or anyone else has bothered to reply to either of my TWO earlier posts about the armed civilian coming upon a deputy in distress, other than to critique the possible actions of the civilian. I would like you to go back and read my posts, and address this issue. And another scenerio. It's the middle of the night. I wake up, (as I frequently do). I see a person outside my home (rural area). They are on my property. I know/don't know I live in a training area. I have never participatated or been asked to participate in a training scenerio. NO ONE has asked for permission to be on my property.(If the military ALWAYS asks permission to be on private property, even walking across a 50 foot stretch, shit can this scenerio) Because I am widely traveled, I have a past, (your choice, draw your own conclusions). Me and Mr. Benelli, (close friend after dark), decide to check it out. As I prepare to go out I observe that the individual has a weapon ,(your choice). I step out side. It takes a while, but the intruder "makes" me. His partner in the bushs, (that I missed), made me 15 seconds before him. They both think I'm in the game. End the scenerio any way you want to, but I will guarentee you this. If that civilian is me, there is going to be "serious bodily injury", or death to someone (your choice) as the outcome. As an aside, on the situation we are discussing, we all need to keep in mind that the cop is in his "AO", and he is ALWAYS "in the field". You and yours SF, on the other hand, are not in the field until deployed. He is trained to react in the field a certain way. So are you, in a different way. Unless someone is with the cop, or his dispatch is aware of the vehicle and occupants, how's he gonna know? Keep in mind, I, (and many others like me (some would say "paranoid")), are in our "AO" wherever our body happens to be at the time. I'll say it again. This type of training should not be conducted in a civilian population (Qualify: unless EVERYONE in the population is aware of the training, and EACH scenerio, AND is isolated from the population at large. (ie. no uninformed "strangers" entering)

Yeah, seems I recall some 12-19 innocent people killed...and they WEREN"T SF.......

Yes, and a deputy may be traumatized for the rest his life, too. He may even hesitate when confronted with a similar scenario at some point in the future, except this time it won't be a couple of soldiers role playing, and that hesitation may get him killed.

Is it really all that difficult to see why we shouldn't be setting up LEOs to react in any other way than we train them to?

OH, OK, lets put the amount of times that the military has "tried to cover it's ass" up against the amount of times LEO's, both federal, state and local. Wonder who would come out on top ??

We've never gone to war due to LEO mis-information......... "Remember the Maine".

Ever heard of Mai Lai 4? How many people killed and 1 guy goes to prison. What about the first US airplane shot down during the Gulf War, Lt Scott Spiecher? Defense Sec. Cheney almost immediately said he was dead, no search and rescue attepted. Guess what lots more info available after the war says he was alive and captured. (and never found)

Military screw ups are often monumental............. How many people were effected by Agent Orange? forced innoculations? or Gulf War Syndrome. According to the military harmless, harmless, and doesn't exsist.

Spectre I'd also like to know exactly how you determine what exactly "lies" are, just because you don't like or believe it doesn't make it a lie. I would also point out that the US Army is Federal, just like the FBI, ATF, and CIA.

Aside from this incident when have you ever heard of the Moore County SO or Deputy Butler?? If you say never how can you know anything about them??

As far as the tape "runing out" next you'll tell us no one has ever had a battery croak on an important piece of gear at an inoportune time. Yeah equipments alway perfect. Just ask the guys manning the radar station on Dec. 7 1941............looks like B-17's to me.

All you need for a legal stop is something as simple as an equipment violation or traffic infraction. Or "reasonable suspicion" which is a lower legal standard than Probuble Cause.



No, they were not.



Nothing publicly. as per the terms of his agreement with the Army.



Nothing publicly. as ordered.



8hr VCR tape, 10,12, or 16 hour shift, it happens. want to get rich, invent a 20 hour VCR tape that works in a PVS system and plays back on any VCR.



He asked for backup before he initiated the car stop and was told none was available.



Hopefully as as soon as he got out of the car. One cop with no backup comming, dealing with 3 men on a backcountry road. He better have his gun out.



Cops dont wait until guns are actually pointed at them. Going for an M4 or trying to take their gun are plenty reason enough.



Charging the Deputy Sheriff. Yes.



He probubly knew they were soldiers right from the start. He just thought they were soldiers who were trying to kill him. Dont assume Soldier equals good guy.



Ambulance would be called by dispatch as soon as the Deputy advised someone was shot.



That is up to the paramedics/ambulance company. the cops have nothing to do with their response times once dispatched. however if they are like most chickenshit firefighters and ambulance crews, they would be "staging" until the cops advised "code-4".



If by "first aid" you mean taking a position of cover and keeping the suspects at gunpoint until help arrives, yes.

OLY, My intentions were to point out that LEO's and their departments at all levels have been guilty of coverups. Boomer seems to have a one sided opinion on this matter, I lay blame at the feet of both the deputy and the servicemen.
I never doubted that the military has covered its ass.
I grew up in a Military family and have seen first hand how local LEO's deal with servicemen, whom they see as unwelcome and trouble makers in THEIR town. I have had many more bad experiences with LEO's than I ever have in dealing with military personnel.
Bottom line is, IMO, they both share blame.

Well since I was in the US Army for 3 years and am a LEO I think I might have a different perspective.

Yes both sides will try to "spin" info. Of course to even get to the "spinners" it has to get from the people who were at the incident, usaully through 2-3 other people. Then the "spinners" get it, and disseminate it to reporters who often want to put their own "spin" on it, and may not fully understand what things are that they are reporting about, M-4's blah, blah, blah.

Both the SO and the Army will want to keep their organizations from looking bad, because they care about the organiztion, not the individuals. The Army probably has more experience on "spin" however.

I don't blame the guys that were "on the ground". It would seem that someone at the Army should have been doing more to explain what was going on, and possibly had more "judges" or safety officers watching the participants. That is based on what I have read so far and I don't think there is enough info to make any kind of assessment about the demeanor of any of the persons during the contact or the exact actions that led to deadly force being used.

But as this goes on I wonder more and more why the civilian and the SSG that survived haven't been interviewed by the press, or statements taken from them and made available. Could it be that they it would supports the SO's claims? Could it be they are concerned about criminal charges or civil liability, because they now know that the incident they thought was part of a scenario is real?