Quoted: Quoted:  finish the FIRST fucking mission we had laid out, to find and remove Osama and his top guys. +1 googolplex

And here would be the OTHER person who knows exactly nothing about Afghanistan.

Quoted: Sounds like a recipe for eternal war at a huge cost in lives…

Whereas your reccommendation is surrender.  You sure you're not French?

Quoted: It's a very well-spoken article that evokes a lot of feeling but the point is we are in Iraq because of a lie.

Nope.  That statement is a lie.

Quoted: The people who scream with joy each time a terrorist executes a successful attack HAVE TO BE SILENCED.  They are the ones offering the very highest status their Islamic-based culture can offer--kill ten terrorists and there are ten more eager to stand in the spotlight of highest status.  One way or another, that terrorist-goading culture has to be modified or naturally, these attacks won't stop...ever.   There's a hard way and an easy way to silence those crowds:  The easy way is to kill them on a sudden, sustained, and massive scale; making them realize that there will be none of them left in the end to remember how brave and defiant there people were as they fought The Great Satan, thereby taking the violent wind out of their cultural sails. The hard way is to invade their homelands while avoiding killing them as much as possible.  For this to work, the invaders have to bring with them a better way of life--at least a tolerable way--but also bringing with them the political will and clear intention of a long term occupation; several successive generations--sort of the Roman way.  A long term occupation after a realtively bloodless invasion will have a chance of succeeding so that today's six-year-olds can pursue that better way of life with the occupation forces protect him from the adults who would rather their children die than yield to Satan's ways.  Then, that six-year-old's children will need to be protected from his peers, whose parents were successful in shielding their children from exposure to The Great Satan's ways.  Slowly, after a few generations, those exposed to the better way will out-number the fanatics; they will be educated; they will understand--indeed they will know that this better way should be protected, and will act to preserve that better life themselves with their treasure and blood.   Deceptively simple. Kissing their asses cannot possibly work on peoples who only have respect for the might of the iron fist.

The easy way works and they ALL understand that.  The hard way is based on assumptions that many of us would like to see come to fruition.  BUT, they are assumptions, and those assumptions are attached to a very steep price tag.

Blake

are we really in a war? WWII was a real war. the enemy if not stopped had men and material to conquer the world. planes, ships, well trained and disciplined soldiers (germany and japan).

what does radical islam have? a mystical pipedream. no techology, no weapons delivery systems (other than the dedicated jihadi). no ships, no aircraft carriers, no tanks, no well trained and disicplined army.

worse case scenario.. they get some tactical nukes and take out a few major cities in the US. Do you think America will roll over and join islam in masses or commit mass suicide? Do you think Osama and crew will land a large expeditionary force in florida and march north?

i have been reading a book about the 6 day war. the arabs against israel. all the major arab countries want  to push israel into the sea. they have armies, tanks, planes, missiles. all the things real wars are fought with. they attack a vastly outnumbered country, from all sides and since they are contingous with israel there are few things to stop their tanks and troops.

and they lost big time in 6 days.. this was a real war with real islamic countries all determined to exterminate a country of... what is it 5 or 6 million people? if the arabs/islamist united locally and with national determination cannot conquer a small foe, how on earth can they really be a threat to us?

compare that with what we face. this isn't a war. its something else. best dealt with by securing our borders, supporting our friends, securing bases in the middle east and not wasting money and national determination trying to 'introduce' democracy to a region that is incapable of embracing it..

we should stabilize iraq, secure bases there to counter iran and syria and stand down. secure out borders, improve our human intelligence and be vigilant.

america is gonna tire of this 'war'.. and not be ready/willing to fight the next one.. and that is one of the great problems we face.

Quoted: are we really in a war?

I dunno, man...why don't we ask the 3,000 people killed on 9-11?  Or the 2,000 US military men and women killed in Iraq?  THEY sure thought we were in a war...

Quoted: are we really in a war? WWII was a real war. the enemy if not stopped had men and material to conquer the world. planes, ships, well trained and disciplined soldiers (germany and japan). what does radical islam have? a mystical pipedream. no techology, no weapons delivery systems (other than the dedicated jihadi). no ships, no aircraft carriers, no tanks, no well trained and disicplined army. worse case scenario.. they get some tactical nukes and take out a few major cities in the US. Do you think America will roll over and join islam in masses or commit mass suicide? Do you think Osama and crew will land a large expeditionary force in florida and march north? i have been reading a book about the 6 day war. the arabs against israel. all the major arab countries want  to push israel into the sea. they have armies, tanks, planes, missiles. all the things real wars are fought with. they attack a vastly outnumbered country, from all sides and since they are contingous with israel there are few things to stop their tanks and troops. and they lost big time in 6 days.. this was a real war with real islamic countries all determined to exterminate a country of... what is it 5 or 6 million people? if the arabs/islamist united locally and with national determination cannot conquer a small foe, how on earth can they really be a threat to us? compare that with what we face. this isn't a war. its something else. best dealt with by securing our borders, supporting our friends, securing bases in the middle east and not wasting money and national determination trying to 'introduce' democracy to a region that is incapable of embracing it.. we should stabilize iraq, secure bases there to counter iran and syria and stand down. secure out borders, improve our human intelligence and be vigilant. america is gonna tire of this 'war'.. and not be ready/willing to fight the next one.. and that is one of the great problems we face.

Ummmm...some big fucking jetliners????

Quoted: Quoted: You really need to read these five articles.  And pass them on to everyone you know, and especally those who while about how we "just need to get out of that shithole"... 1. Steven Den Bestes "Strategic Overview" written way back in September of 2003, still remarkably valid. 2. The blogger known as "Tigerhawk" produced this "Annotated Version of Den Bestes Strategic Overview" which takes into account the events of the last two years since the original work was written. 3. American Digests essay The First Terrorist War from October 2003, also still extremely relevant. 4. Wretcherd of the Belmont Club's "The Three Conjectures" also from September 2003 on how Al Qaida has perminently changed the threshold for a Nuclear conflict. 5. The short Postscript to the article above, written a couple weeks later Sounds like a recipe for eternal war at a huge cost in lives… for what? to bring 'democracy' at the the point of a gun to people who don't want it?

I agree, you can't force democracy on those who don't want it.
It's a cultural and religious thing, same with some asian countries.
This is different from Europe after WWII.

Quoted: Quoted: are we really in a war? I dunno, man...why don't we ask the 3,000 people killed on 9-11?  Or the 2,000 US military men and women killed in Iraq?  THEY sure thought we were in a war...

I think the 2k killed on 9-11-01 would wonder what the hell invading Iraq has to do with them.

Or do you have special info that tells you Iraq was responsible for 9-11?

tag for later consumption.

Quoted: Nope.  That statement is a lie.

So you really feel like we went into Iraq based on good honest information and we are still going to find the WMD and mobile nuke capabilities that Saddam had? You believe it really had to do with that as well as removing a horrible dictator and freeing the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people? If so, I've got a bunch of Shrikes here I'm willing to sell ya...

- rem

Some times I wonder about you guys... oh wait, this is general forum right?

"Richest nation in the world yet we can't get healthcare subsidized by the govt?" Go to ANY country that claims is has govt subsidized health care and you find AWFUL QUALITY...which is why to this day those country's leaders come HERE for THEIR medical checkups or cures.

Just because the government pays for something doesn't magically make that service or product top of the line. Human laziness and lack of incentives to continually improve oneself out of competition will however inexorably make a service or product less effective.

We're also not paying NOTHING. Medicare and Medicade ALREADY have bigger budgets than the DOD and that's part of the reason our federal deficit is so huge. If the Fed only had to worry about defense spending the budget would drop from 1.5 TRILLION to about $400 billion/year.

"Subject to one of the largest terrorist attacks known in history and yet we have a completely open border to both the north and south?"

And when was the last time terrorists snuck across either border to inflict harm on the USA? I'm not saying they couldn't. Fact is, SO FAR THEY HAVEN'T. It's easier to screen ports and airports in foreign countries (active surveillance) than guard 6,000 miles of land and 10,000 miles of water.
Easier and less expensive.

"Billions of dollars continually spent to support a war that cant even drop our fuel prices and get a working pipeline going?"

Um, last I checked here in VA gas is selling for $1.99 a gallon. Half of that is federal, state and local taxes... in fact taxes alone account for $1 of every gallon. You want cheaper gas? Get Congress or your state legislature to lift gas taxes. Not gonna happen.

"I knew there were no WMD going in to Iraq" Except for all the Sarin filled artillery shells our boys found over there, as well as precursor labs. Mustard gas IEDs disarmed too... totally pooh poohed by the Media as "old Gulf War vintage" as though that somehow means Mustard Gas isn't a weapon of mass destruction so it doesn't count.

Face it boys, Iraq was one of the FEW ME countries with a home grown military industry complex: building their own weapon systems, chemicals, artillery, rockets, missiles, even tanks. Because Saddam could build alot of his own stuff (whereas most other ME countries can only buy them on the open market) Iraq was positioned to be a main player in any widespread confrontation. Now it's not.

"but I figured we would at least have such a force that would seal the borders and quickly promote rebuilding and restructuring."

Right. Seal the borders of Iraq. With what? The entire US Army? Do you even know how big Iraq is? WE ARE PROMOTING REBUILDING AND RESTRUCTURING YOU DIP.

"This govt is clueless, they have left a lot of our guys swinging in the wind because of it. I mean North Korea has one of the most opressive and insane governments in the world yet of course we didn't invade them right?"
Apples and oranges. So we ought to have let Saddam alone because we haven't gotten around to dealing with North Korea? What are you going to say when we DO invade and take out North Korea? "sniff" well it's no good because you're not dealing with the red-chinese..."sniff". OK cross this line....ok this one....no that one....

Come to think of it... does this mean the Left FAVORS WAR WITH NORTH KOREA? yES OR NO? DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT WANT WAR WITH NORTH KOREA?

"We just pissed them off worse by the new administration not continuing their deal concerning the nuclear reactors, and calling them part of the axis of evil."
Yeah, and the North Korean's pissing on their part of the deal (worked out by the stupid Carter) by secretly continuing nuclear weapons research all while we gave them FREE OIL, FREE FOOD AND FREE CONSTRUCTION? Sooooooooooooo we're supposed to hold up our part of a treaty while they get to cheat on theirs and this is considered by you to be a 'smart' thing? What kind of fool are you?

"Smart. This administration should have finished what was started in Afghanistan and then focused on rebuilding OUR nation, not someone else's."

How long have Liberals and Democrats been busy solely on "our country"? Detroit and Chicago (and New Orleans) have been in DEMOCRAT hands for 40 years and they are dying cities. But it's also hypocrisy as the Libs have spent billions over the years on "poor countries" sterilization and forced abortion programs.... so much for only spending money home.

And what do they have to show for their vaunted "war on poverty" in all the major US cities? MORE POOR PEOPLE! You give the "poor": subsidized education k-12, food stamps, subsidized housing, job training, federal jobs, medicare, medicaid, Social Security.... tell them that they're victims who can't help themselves and thus aren't morally responsible for their failings.... and surprise! Those people REMAIN POOR.

Meanwhile dirt poor Vietnamese refugees (sold out and betrayed by the Democrats) arrive to this country in 1985, after years in Thai refugee camps and in 10 years climb into the solid middle class.... all due to hard work, solid family lives, and cooperation, not hand-outs and pity parties.

Every time Socialists or Democrats (I know, redundant) run a city, state or country, the way they want to, poverty increases. Before claiming credit for the 1990's boom, remember that after 1994, the GOP ran Congress while Klinton ran as a "moderate" democrat.....

We're the "richest nation on earth" not because of socialism but because of capitalism plus our values which include moral responsibility (rather than ethnic or racist scapegoating), strong families (not the lone individual vs. the state of Hillary's pipe dreams), and the drive to continually improve services and products (not the state imposed union monopolies that run companies into the ground and scare off investors).

And we didn't become the super power we are because of state controlled everything or state financied everything.

Quoted: Some times I wonder about you guys... oh wait, this is general forum right? "Richest nation in the world yet we can't get healthcare subsidized by the govt?" Go to ANY country that claims is has govt subsidized health care and you find AWFUL QUALITY...which is why to this day those country's leaders come HERE for THEIR medical checkups or cures.

Yeah and those people are filthy fucking rich. You think Tom Cruise spends 2 hours in two different rooms waiting to see a doctor for 10 minutes? Gimme a fucking break. Money sure makes a difference. I'm 29 years old and have some health issues that have nearly killed me simply because the incompetence of and the horrible structure of our healthcare system. And that was when I had health insurance. The doctors are FOR the government subsidizing our healthcare system. It would hardly change a thing except for freeing up the system to be out of the grip of the HMO/PPO nonsense and give doctor's a better system for managing patients instead of minimum mandatories and set time-limits. Don't even get me started on this topic I can go on forever, this shit consumed 4 years of my life man.

As far as the healthcare QUALITY in other countries, I fucking went to Austria and got professional (and much better) medical care so don't give me that "oh well America is the best as far as medical treatment" shit goes. Unless you've actually been treated in another country don't even respond because I had my life saved.

ETA: 2 years later they finally got 2 different medicines on the USA that were available for 3-5 years prior in both Canada, Europe, Hong Kong, other places that I was finally able to take. But of course the price in the US is 3x what it is in other countries. Interesting how Walmart, CVS and others add about a 30% profit margin in for themselves not to mention the cost of the manufacturer nearly doubled once it hits here.

I'll respond to your other points later, I gotta take care of some coding here.

- rem

tag

While some posters had made some valid points.

The U.S. can not afford to be isolationist anymore. We can not withdraw back to Fortress America and say we are safe. We can debate the merits of invading Iraq and if it was worth it all day long. The fact is it is now the main front in the War on Terrorism.

This is not a war that will be won in a few years and may take a decade or more to win. We are dealing with a Radical Islam that has been formeting for decades.

I will agree that border Security is a problem that needs to be addressed now and there seems to be a little bit of progress towards that. We need to keep up the pressure on that.

As far as paying off the debt, we should begin with the massive cost of welfare programs and the massive amounts of pork that is spent every year. It is time demand some fiscal responsibility in those areas.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  finish the FIRST fucking mission we had laid out, to find and remove Osama and his top guys. +1 googolplex And here would be the OTHER person who knows exactly nothing about Afghanistan.

Of course Ricky is somehow able to abstract "finish the first mission" into "you know nothing about Afghanistan".
And this from a man who decided after what must have been a long and soulful search, that his numerous skills and abilities uniquely qualified him to be a stay at home house mom. What, Oprah had a show on "Afghanistan, know the favorite recipes of the Hindu Kush" and now you and your girlfriends are all experts?
Sure.

There is much to be said in support of expanding our effort. I agree with the effort. Great articles. Thanks for posting.

I am not going to waste energy debating the subject, however.

It's clear to me that giving peace a chance since walked out on Vietnam has failed. It's time to arm up and rain hell on our enemies, foriegn and domestic.

Our war machine is unique in that the tax dollars and bonds sold used to feed it transfer mostly back to our private sector.

The only "gold" standard the world knows today are US Treasury Securities. Frankly, this nation could issue debt debt an infitum, as long as our security is in place, the rest of developed world sill simply benchmark against us.... look at the Euro vs Dollar today.

You need to look at the cost of debt service as a function of our national income... relative to the rest of world and historically, it is quite low.

Imagine World Peace.  But also, consider what must be endured to obtain, and then maintain that peace.  

Quoted: Tell me this ain't so!!! RikWriter the ultimate WOT 'Kill those Jihaddis no matter what the cost in lives' Tough Guy is a 'house mom'……… No wonder he did not reply when I asked him what service he was in… Ricky serves… …………dinner!

He really doesn't even deserve a response anymore. His pattern of "you're wrong", "too bad you are wrong", and "if only you knew the real facts" posts really get old.

- rem

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: are we really in a war? I dunno, man...why don't we ask the 3,000 people killed on 9-11?  Or the 2,000 US military men and women killed in Iraq?  THEY sure thought we were in a war... I think the 2k killed on 9-11-01 would wonder what the hell invading Iraq has to do with them. Or do you have special info that tells you Iraq was responsible for 9-11?

I have special info that says that Iraq supported Islamic terrorists throughout the region and that all of the Islamic radical groups are our enemies.

Quoted: Quoted: Nope.  That statement is a lie. So you really feel like we went into Iraq based on good honest information and we are still going to find the WMD and mobile nuke capabilities that Saddam had?

No, I believe we went into Iraq based on the best intelligence we had, which turned out to be wrong.  Being wrong does not equal lying.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sounds like a recipe for eternal war at a huge cost in lives… Whereas your reccommendation is surrender.  You sure you're not French? Big tough talk… so which Service are you in?

I WAS in the US Army infantry, 25th Infantry Division...but that was back during our first time fighting Saddam.  You?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted:  finish the FIRST fucking mission we had laid out, to find and remove Osama and his top guys. +1 googolplex And here would be the OTHER person who knows exactly nothing about Afghanistan. Of course Ricky is somehow able to abstract "finish the first mission" into "you know nothing about Afghanistan".

Well, ONE of us should show some deductive ability and common sense, and it sure as hell wasn't gonna be you, so...

Quoted: Tell me this ain't so!!! RikWriter the ultimate WOT 'Kill those Jihaddis no matter what the cost in lives' Tough Guy is a 'house mom'……… No wonder he did not reply when I asked him what service he was in… Ricky serves… …………dinner!

Yeah, it's so emasculating to actually take a part in the raising of your children instead of letting some strangers raise them for you.  
I'm sure that, if you ever find a woman willing to reproduce with you, you'll be manly enough to abandon them to daycare until you turn around and find them in juvie hall somewhere.

Quoted: I AM with the Royal Navy…

Navy huh?  Well, THAT explains it...  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell me this ain't so!!! RikWriter the ultimate WOT 'Kill those Jihaddis no matter what the cost in lives' Tough Guy is a 'house mom'……… No wonder he did not reply when I asked him what service he was in… Ricky serves… …………dinner! Yeah, it's so emasculating to actually take a part in the raising of your children instead of letting some strangers raise them for you.   I'm sure that, if you ever find a woman willing to reproduce with you, you'll be manly enough to abandon them to daycare until you turn around and find them in juvie hall somewhere. Married for 23 years now… Mrs Vito makes my sammiches and irons my shirts! …and I made sure I turned enough coin so Mrs Vito could stay home and look after the kids… sometimes it took two jobs and 7 day weeks but hey, that's the 'un-emasculated way'. ANdy

I guess it helps when you can suck up to the British government tit, huh?  Not that I take anything you say at face value anymore.  You could be lying through your teeth for all I know, given the lack of personal integrity you've shown just in this thread.

as expensive as this war may be it may be more expensive not to fight.  sucess in iraq = a more stable middle-east which will decrease our expenses in the future.

Quoted: This is my 'pussy' Carlton… he has no balls and stays home all day.

I guess you have at least one thing in common with Carlton then.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is my 'pussy' Carlton… he has no balls and stays home all day. I guess you have at least one thing in common with Carlton then. Nope… I go out to work……… you should try it! It's a great feeling!

That wasn't the thing I meant.  And you should ask your wife (if she exists) whether raising young children is work.  Of course, if you really had one, you'd be divorced by now with that attitude, so I rather believe you're lying.

Quoted: Raising children? That's womans work! 'That attitude'… you're sounding very Metrosexual there Rick!

Yeah, caring about your kids is such a "gay" thing.  Man, I didn't think my opinion of you could go any lower.  I was wrong.

Quoted: as expensive as this war may be it may be more expensive not to fight.  sucess in iraq = a more stable middle-east which will decrease our expenses in the future.

can we be successful in iraq without killing everyone or at least a whole bunch of people?

no conqueror has ever made the middle east peaceful, starting with the greeks, romans, mongols, turks, and the brits...

be realistic. no matter how right you think it is for us to be in iraq, at some point the american public will cease to support the war unless they feel directly threatened. thats what happens in democracies. a nation only has so much will to fight. it is like the charge on a battery. it is not endless. once depleted it is gone until something gives it a charge. once the people get 'tired' of the war and political careers tied to that war end, that war is done. this is a fact of life. no matter how right it is for us to try to make the middle east a better place, the american public will not support the effort forever.

while there still is some will left we should be doing things to protect us long term. bases in the middle east, strong borders, strong human intelligence, strong military.

what happened after vietman was the destruction of much of what we need to remain safe, intelligence agencies, military spending.. and so forth. if the war goes on and no definite progress is made we could see a repeat of this..

Quoted: Who implied you were gay?

Oh, no one...just like you aren't ACTUALLY trying to post thread after thread of anti-American propoganda, it's just a happy coincidence, right?  
You know, in theory, a naval officer---even a Limey naval officer---should have SOME sense of honor.  Interesting how theory and practice differ.

Quoted: [Oh, no one...just like you aren't ACTUALLY trying to post thread after thread of anti-American propoganda, it's just a happy coincidence, right?   You know, in theory, a naval officer---even a Limey naval officer---should have SOME sense of honor.  Interesting how theory and practice differ.

The fucked up thing is you (and some others) seem to feel that just because an American who has an opinion and believes the Iraq war was based on a lie, or is not the right course of action or currently not in the best interests of America, is "anti-american". I know OIF vets that feel the same way I do, are they "anti-American" as well? Just about every current book on OIF experiences (some written by vets) has some anti-war sentiment being verbalized by vets, are they all lies or "anti-american" as well?

I would say that you sir are the "anti-american" one for trying to immediately and without reason put down another American's right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression. People SHOULD speak out about the war whether they are against it or for it. Personally I want to hear other people's opinions who may be more informed or frankly just smarter than I am. I don't care if they are stating an argument for or against the war. The idea is to share fucking knowledge, opinions and to learn. Maybe someone here is a fucking CIA analyst that knows the war is 100% winnable within 6 months, and privy to some knowledge that I am not.

All your bullshit flame responses basically saying FOAD or "you are unamerican / anti-america" just makes you look like an ass and drags the board and threads into the gutter. Either participate in a discussion or don't, but don't take a shit in the middle of it.

- rem

None of this really matters anyway.

Fundementally, our nation is dead. Reagan bought us a couple decades and W will buy us one decade more.

If the GOP does not get on the political offensive now... by next year, GOP will lose both the House and Senate, Hillary will win re-election in NY. Then, the GOP will try to cut its losses by putting up a moderate GOP ticket in 2008 (think Guiliani, McCain). The then demoralized conservative base will stay home on election day, Hillary will win.

How long she remains president will be anyone's guess... whether it is short time or long enough to serve out a term, the results will be the same:

(1) Iraq will be abandoned and millions people will be murdered -- just like when we abandoned Vietnam;
(2) China will test us in Tawain and defend itself by switching on its forces already inside the US
(3) IslamoFacists will also rise up here in the US
(4) Iran will Test Israel
(5) We will see the US give up more soverienty to the UN.

Stock up on ammo boys and get your shit together.

Quoted: Tell me this ain't so!!! RikWriter the ultimate WOT 'Kill those Jihaddis no matter what the cost in lives' Tough Guy is a 'house mom'……… No wonder he did not reply when I asked him what service he was in… Ricky serves… …………dinner!

Apparently he was in the army but even by his own admission he was not much of a soldier. Unless getting "chewed out" all the time even by "a few generals" is something he feels accomplishment about.
What you have to know about little Ricky is that he has a little problem with projecting. Before it was known on the forums that he is a stay at home house mom, one of his favorite attacks was to call OTHERS "shut-ins".

Quoted: I have special info  .

Yes, I'm quite sure that "special" is something you have heard all your life. "That's little Riky, he's a "special" child".  No doubt you grew up with "special" caps on bottles, "specials" handles on doors., "special" schools. And I'm sure you should send that "special" intel from little Bobby in the next room on his walkie-talkie to the Pentagon asap!

Rikwriter, I'll stack up a currently serving Navy man's honor to a koolaid drinking schoolmarm any day of the week.

And let me know when you can find a credible link to Iraq and 9/11.

My only concern about the current situation in Iraq is that I don't want it to turn into rerun of what the Russians had to go through. Granted, the Afghans did have US Military Advisors, and equipment, I just don't think that was enough for the Russians to just leave.

I don't know what course of action we should take, but I am a firm believer that "Democracy", Apple pie, and baseball games aren't going to go over well in the Middle East.


PS: I'm not a goddamn liberal DU Kool-Aid drinker. I just think that we are getting stuck in Iraq without any good reward.

Quoted: Quoted: Operation Anaconda didnt go well. We thought we could trust the Northern Alliance and Bin Laden bought out a few of them and slipped over the border from what I have heard. According to Col Hunt on Fox news the Marines should of been used instead of the 10th Mountain. The 10th Mountain siezed the low terrain and got pinned down immediately. They should of taken the highest terrain and then fought down. This was poor military tactics by the commander on the scene. This was Hunts analysis of the battle.   The US military has learned a lot since then about fighting in Afganistan. The terrorists are actually pretty much been downgraded to operating on foot or a donkey. No vehicles at all. Bin Ladin if he is alive isnt going to go out on operations and risk getting smoked by our military. He is going to stay in Pakistan in the Frontier providence and sent other people across the border to do his bidding. Again, good points, I just still feel cheated by Bush and the fact that bin Laden's head wasn't on a stick at the end of it. I could give a shit less about Saddam, he was just a sabre-rattling old fool. Hell, he never even gassed the Kurds, it was fucking Iran and everyone in the "know" knows that. That's why his trial is bullshit and they are finding it hard to charge him with anything more than just some death warrants he signed, which he had every right to do since it was his country and there were some reasons for them. Personally I feel like Saddam is going to have a nasty "accident" of some sorts before the trial ends. He's going to die suspiciously and no one will hear his side of the story. - rem

Well if he has a tragic accident that is just to bad. Where is your source of info. that Iran gassed the Kurds???????????

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Your not going to finish anything in Afganistan by moving in more US troops. There are several reasons. 1 Terrain-Whole divisions can be swallowed up by the rugged terrain. Simply moving in more troops is not the answer. 2. The bad guys  use the Pakistan border to their advantage. They move in across the border and back. 3. We cannot invade Pakistan because if the present government falls you are turning over nukes to the terrorists. Yes, those are good points and are correct, but how many troops do we have up near the Pakistan border looking for Osama? Surely there can be some military moves we can make up there to shut down some of those strongholds they operate out of. What about gunships? Drones? How much effort is still being made up there? Seems to me we gave up pretty early on, and for what reason? We quickly shifted the focus to Iraq, while everyone was still on the patriotic-avenge-911 bandwagon. It was a very clever move by the Bush administration. Not a good day to die - the untold story of operation anaconda That book has a lot of good information on how strapped a lot of guys in charge were on the ground in Afghanistan and how there was a lack of direction and unity in the search for Osama, fall of the Taliban and all that. It really seems like this administration was not at all committed to exacting justice for 9/11 against those responsible. - rem Operation Anaconda didnt go well. We thought we could trust the Northern Alliance and Bin Laden bought out a few of them and slipped over the border from what I have heard. According to Col Hunt on Fox news the Marines should of been used instead of the 10th Mountain. The 10th Mountain siezed the low terrain and got pinned down immediately. They should of taken the highest terrain and then fought down. This was poor military tactics by the commander on the scene. This was Hunts analysis of the battle.   The US military has learned a lot since then about fighting in Afganistan. The terrorists are actually pretty much been downgraded to operating on foot or a donkey. No vehicles at all. Bin Ladin if he is alive isnt going to go out on operations and risk getting smoked by our military. He is going to stay in Pakistan in the Frontier providence and sent other people across the border to do his bidding. The largest problem with Anaconda was a situation very similar to the Battle of the Little Bighorn. Everyone was more concerned with not making contact with the enemy than what we would do if we did make contact with them. Rushed planning, jumping on bad intel without waiting for corroberation from recconnassance. And a good bit of not having fully shaken off the rust in transitioning from a peacetime to a wartime army. Thats what I got from my reading... And we certainly have not "given up" on tracking down Al Qaida and bin Laden in Pakistan.  Unfortunately we have not "given up" on Musharrif yet either... and HE and his patchwork goverment we keep propping up soley because if it falls somone else might get to their nuclear weapons before we do... or at least thats the way it seems.

I would agree about fully shaken off the rust in transitioning from a peacetime to a wartime army. Look at the lesson we had to learn the hard way when we starting fighting WW2. Not every operation was a spectacular success. Add to this that Clinton had gutted the military. I read a book titled the Hunt for Bin Laden and I couldnt believe we had Special Forces at the time that didnt even have body armor. Also it is a real bad idea to condemn the whole Afganistan operation because of one battle. Bin Laden I imagine is in Pakistan holed up and it is not going to be easy to get him. Getting him isnt going to end this war anyway. Plenty of his followers have been terminated in Afganistan.

Quoted: Quoted: Nope.  That statement is a lie. So you really feel like we went into Iraq based on good honest information and we are still going to find the WMD and mobile nuke capabilities that Saddam had? You believe it really had to do with that as well as removing a horrible dictator and freeing the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people? If so, I've got a bunch of Shrikes here I'm willing to sell ya... - rem

Dont buy the Democratic Bullshit. Just because they repeat a lie over and over again doesnt mean it is the truth. EVERY intelligence agency in the world all agreed that Saddam had WMD's. We had to listen to them. Why because Clinton had stripped our own CIA and made them fire all their operatives that they had taken years to develop. Clinton though you could do everything with high tech sat. surveillance. He was wrong about that like he was wrong about a lot of other things. I dont know if the truth will every be known about the WMD but one of these days it might come out.