[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Video of a guy consistently making his Sig P320 discharge not touching the trigger (Page 2 of 3)
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Quoted: Umm he has a set screw slightly depressing the trigger so how is that not touching the trigger? He even says the purpose of said set screw is to have trigger in slightly manipulated He said that the scenario described in one of the accidental discharge events was that it was speculated a tiny piece of debris was lodged in the trigger pocket and caused the trigger to be slightly depressed. He was trying to recreate that condition. |
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Quoted: The Sig 320 may be flawed...I don't know for sure...but...I can jam a screw into the trigger of many brands/models of firearms and make it go off. That video proves absolutely nothing except that one should never jam a screw into the trigger of a firearm. I've got to ask: If there is truly no problem with P320's, why are we hearing about so many "uncommanded firings" from this specific firearm model versus guns that have been out much longer, much more common, with a lot longer operational history? |
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Quoted: To be clear, you're saying that you can "jam a screw" into the trigger area of "many brands/models of firearms" and then wiggle the slide side to side or up/down to make the gun fire? I've got to ask: If there is truly no problem with P320's, why are we hearing about so many "uncommanded firings" from this specific firearm model versus guns that have been out much longer, with a lot longer operational history? I believe there is a problem with the P320, but for any striker fired gun where pulling the trigger forces the sear down, there will be an amount of trigger pull where wiggling the slide releases the striker. It may or may not be possible to wedge the trigger in that position with a screw, the way you can with a P320. |
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Quoted: The screw is just slightly depressing the trigger. Not enough to fire the gun. So messing with the slide a little to make the gun fire in this state is such an obvious problem. The screw is taking up the first stage plus about 1mm past the "wall", which is the seer engagement. Not saying the P320 doesn't have problems (maybe it does - don't own one and thing Glock should have taken the tender), but pre-staging a trigger and them squeezing the slide does not seem like a good indicator of the type of discharges we're hearing about. I intend to do some testing on a borrowed P320 and a few other striker pistols, but am still of the mind that this should be easily repeatable without the kind of staging or other manipulations. |
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Quoted: SIG has created a Cult following. Everything they make is better. Shout down anyone who says otherwise. Quoted: Quoted: Me too. I dunno, but we're blessed to have so much to do and buy these days that some folks start to take on the identity of their stuff - I guess that's what's called a brand lifestyle. In my mind some absolutely decide that a brand or a product IS gonna be a hill they will die on. Sadly in this case that saying is probably too literal. SIG has created a Cult following. Everything they make is better. Shout down anyone who says otherwise. You mean like Glock did. |
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Quoted: The screw is taking up the first stage plus about 1mm past the "wall", which is the seer engagement. Not saying the P320 doesn't have problems (maybe it does - don't own one and thing Glock should have taken the tender), but pre-staging a trigger and them squeezing the slide does not seem like a good indicator of the type of discharges we're hearing about. I intend to do some testing on a borrowed P320 and a few other striker pistols, but am still of the mind that this should be easily repeatable without the kind of staging or other manipulations. If the trigger isn't engaged enough to fire the gun and it still fires that's a problem. Period. No excuses. |
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Looks like he's getting to self-fellate. Circumference is probably correct too. 
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Quoted: If the trigger isn't engaged enough to fire the gun and it still fires that's a problem. Period. No excuses. Quoted: Quoted: The screw is taking up the first stage plus about 1mm past the "wall", which is the seer engagement. Not saying the P320 doesn't have problems (maybe it does - don't own one and thing Glock should have taken the tender), but pre-staging a trigger and them squeezing the slide does not seem like a good indicator of the type of discharges we're hearing about. I intend to do some testing on a borrowed P320 and a few other striker pistols, but am still of the mind that this should be easily repeatable without the kind of staging or other manipulations. If the trigger isn't engaged enough to fire the gun and it still fires that's a problem. Period. No excuses. Every striker fired pistol that forces the sear down with the trigger will have a point in the trigger pull where it's possible to release the striker while manipulating the slide. That doesn't mean the P320 doesn't have a problem, but I don't think this characteristic is part of the problem. |
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Quoted: Every striker fired pistol that forces the sear down with the trigger will have a point in the trigger pull where it's possible to release the striker while manipulating the slide. That doesn't mean the P320 doesn't have a problem, but I don't think this characteristic is part of the problem. It appears the 320 is allowing for this in a unique way. |
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Quoted: It appears the 320 is allowing for this in a unique way. Quoted: Quoted: Every striker fired pistol that forces the sear down with the trigger will have a point in the trigger pull where it's possible to release the striker while manipulating the slide. That doesn't mean the P320 doesn't have a problem, but I don't think this characteristic is part of the problem. It appears the 320 is allowing for this in a unique way. I don't agree. My Glock will do the same thing if the trigger is held in just the right position. https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo#QrAElBY It's an inherent characteristic of striker fired pistols that force the sear down. It is inevitable that there will be a point in the trigger pull where the remaining sear engagement is less than the play in the slide. |
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Quoted: My Xten has been relegated to being a range only gun at this point due to the issues. However, if you have to introduce and extra part (RE- a frigging screw) into the picture to create a malfunction, you really haven't proven anything. The screw is just allowing for an easier demonstration of the gun firing without full engagement of the trigger. It's just 1mm. |
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Quoted: I don't agree. My Glock will do the same thing if the trigger is held in just the right position. https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo#QrAElBY It's an inherent characteristic of striker fired pistols that force the sear down. It is inevitable that there will be a point in the trigger pull where the remaining sear engagement is less than the play in the slide. Hmm. In your opinion why has this never been a problem until now? |
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Quoted: Hmm. In your opinion why has this never been a problem until now? Quoted: Quoted: I don't agree. My Glock will do the same thing if the trigger is held in just the right position. https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo#QrAElBY It's an inherent characteristic of striker fired pistols that force the sear down. It is inevitable that there will be a point in the trigger pull where the remaining sear engagement is less than the play in the slide. Hmm. In your opinion why has this never been a problem until now? Because something causing a pistol to fire after you've pulled the trigger far enough to start disengaging the sear isn't a problem; it's something that you can reasonably expect any firearm to do. Guns are supposed to shoot when you pull the trigger. Like I said earlier, I believe the P320 has a problem; I just don't think this is part of it. |
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Quoted: The screw is just allowing for an easier demonstration of the gun firing without full engagement of the trigger. It's just 1mm. Quoted: Quoted: My Xten has been relegated to being a range only gun at this point due to the issues. However, if you have to introduce and extra part (RE- a frigging screw) into the picture to create a malfunction, you really haven't proven anything. The screw is just allowing for an easier demonstration of the gun firing without full engagement of the trigger. It's just 1mm. So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. |
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Quoted: Because something causing a pistol to fire after you've pulled the trigger far enough to start disengaging the sear isn't a problem; it's something that you can reasonably expect any firearm to do. Guns are supposed to shoot when you pull the trigger. Like I said earlier, I believe the P320 has a problem; I just don't think this is part of it. But if the trigger is allowed to depress without firing and it is holstered and it can fire without knowledge of the user that's a problem. A glock trigger will reset fully. What if the 320 isn't resetting correctly? |
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Quoted: You mean like Glock did. Glock was hated by all the gun gurus. It's probably the most tested handgun in history, trying to get it to fail. They didn't have to shout anyone down. The tests consistently showed how great the design and execution of the gun actually was. I remember the 100,000 round tests. The freezing. The dropping from helos. The running over with trucks. The dumping 20 pistols worth of parts in a box, assembling one out of them and it ran flawlessly. It was with much chagrin and gnashing of teeth that people like Chuck Taylor had to admit, "This G17 is a better fighting pistol than my 1911". |
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Quoted: So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. |
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Quoted: It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. Quoted: Quoted: So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? |
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Quoted: To be clear, you're saying that you can "jam a screw" into the trigger area of "many brands/models of firearms" and then wiggle the slide side to side or up/down to make the gun fire? I've got to ask: If there is truly no problem with P320's, why are we hearing about so many "uncommanded firings" from this specific firearm model versus guns that have been out much longer, much more common, with a lot longer operational history? Quoted: Quoted: The Sig 320 may be flawed...I don't know for sure...but...I can jam a screw into the trigger of many brands/models of firearms and make it go off. That video proves absolutely nothing except that one should never jam a screw into the trigger of a firearm. I've got to ask: If there is truly no problem with P320's, why are we hearing about so many "uncommanded firings" from this specific firearm model versus guns that have been out much longer, much more common, with a lot longer operational history? I never said, "there is truly no problem with P320's". I very clearly said, "The Sig 320 may be flawed". And, IMHO, the fact that so many reports of "uncommanded firings" has occurred confirms the flaw. What doesn't confirm the flaw is jamming a screw into the trigger, wiggling the slide to induce "uncommanded fire" then saying, "see? looky there! it shoots by itself" |
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Quoted: I never said, "there is truly no problem with P320's". I very clearly said, "The Sig 320 may be flawed". And, IMHO, the fact that so many reports of "uncommanded firings" has occurred confirms the flaw. What doesn't confirm the flaw is jamming a screw into the trigger, wiggling the slide to induce "uncommanded fire" then saying, "see? looky there! it shoots by itself" Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Sig 320 may be flawed...I don't know for sure...but...I can jam a screw into the trigger of many brands/models of firearms and make it go off. That video proves absolutely nothing except that one should never jam a screw into the trigger of a firearm. I've got to ask: If there is truly no problem with P320's, why are we hearing about so many "uncommanded firings" from this specific firearm model versus guns that have been out much longer, much more common, with a lot longer operational history? I never said, "there is truly no problem with P320's". I very clearly said, "The Sig 320 may be flawed". And, IMHO, the fact that so many reports of "uncommanded firings" has occurred confirms the flaw. What doesn't confirm the flaw is jamming a screw into the trigger, wiggling the slide to induce "uncommanded fire" then saying, "see? looky there! it shoots by itself" Exactly |
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Quoted: But if the trigger is allowed to depress without firing and it is holstered and it can fire without knowledge of the user that's a problem. A glock trigger will reset fully. What if the 320 isn't resetting correctly? Quoted: Quoted: Because something causing a pistol to fire after you've pulled the trigger far enough to start disengaging the sear isn't a problem; it's something that you can reasonably expect any firearm to do. Guns are supposed to shoot when you pull the trigger. Like I said earlier, I believe the P320 has a problem; I just don't think this is part of it. But if the trigger is allowed to depress without firing and it is holstered and it can fire without knowledge of the user that's a problem. A glock trigger will reset fully. What if the 320 isn't resetting correctly? You're asking what happens happens if the P320's trigger was pulled, on either an empty chamber or while firing a round, then the trigger doesn't reset after cycling the slide? Then the disconnector should disconnect the trigger from the sear when the slide retracts, allowing the sear to rise regardless of the position of the trigger and the trigger should no longer cause movement of the sear until it does reset. If that's not happening that would be an interesting video, but that's not what the video we have shows. |
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Quoted: Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? It's part of a diagnostic progression. You get something to fail and then figure why that something caused the failure. Then reduce that something until you're not getting any failure and figure out how that something may be causing the relationships of other parts to change. Then start looking at what else would change those relationships in a similar manner. I bet there're analogous things in medicine. "Try this even though it's not a fix, it may tell us what direction to go to find the fix" I learned that on House. 
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Quoted: You're asking what happens happens if the P320's trigger was pulled, on either an empty chamber or while firing a round, then the trigger doesn't reset after cycling the slide? Then the disconnector should disconnect the trigger from the sear when the slide retracts, allowing the sear to rise regardless of the position of the trigger and the trigger should no longer cause movement of the sear until it does reset. If that's not happening that would be an interesting video, but that's not what the video we have shows. I'm past the video now. Just trying to figure this out. |
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Quoted: It's part of a diagnostic progression. You get something to fail and then figure why that something caused the failure. Then reduce that something until you're not getting any failure and figure out how that something may be causing the relationships of other parts to change. Then start looking at what else would change those relationships in a similar manner. I bet there're analogous things in medicine. "Try this even though it's not a fix, it may tell us what direction to go to find the fix" I learned that on House. House tries all the things until it invariably turns out to be lupus. |
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Quoted: I just want to know: A: If there really is a problem. And B: If there is what's causing it. This demonstration felt like the closest we've come. But I need to know more. Gun Jesus had the best overview on his channel ... probably the most honest. But not 100% definitive |
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Quoted: Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? He only inserted the screw to prove he wasn't pulling the trigger with his finger while he rocked the slide back and forth/up and down. It's like you are being intentionally obtuse. |
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Quoted: Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? |
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Quoted: Well, as he stated in the video, he is only using the screw as a proxy for his finger, because if he used his finger, naysayers would be insisting that it only fired because he pulled the trigger a bit more and that it had nothing to do with the slide. He's demonstrating that it's the slide movement that causes it to actually fire, not additional pressure on the trigger. Quoted: Quoted: Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? So? The trigger is pulled past the wall by whatever means, finger or screw. Striker is in the slide, sear is in the frame. When sear engagement < slide/frame clearance manipulating the slide will discharge the pistol. All this proves is a P320 will fire with the trigger pulled. |
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Quoted: Hmm. In your opinion why has this never been a problem until now? Quoted: Quoted: I don't agree. My Glock will do the same thing if the trigger is held in just the right position. https://imgur.com/a/vhjwBbo#QrAElBY It's an inherent characteristic of striker fired pistols that force the sear down. It is inevitable that there will be a point in the trigger pull where the remaining sear engagement is less than the play in the slide. Hmm. In your opinion why has this never been a problem until now? Why has it never been a problem until now? It isn’t a problem now. It isn’t even surprising. It’s exactly what you would expect to happen. |
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Quoted: He only inserted the screw to prove he wasn't pulling the trigger with his finger while he rocked the slide back and forth/up and down. It's like you are being intentionally obtuse. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So he says. I'm sorry, if a youtuber introduces a screw into a gun to breathlessly proclaim, he's found the problem, he hasn't. What sort of scientific control is a screw? How does that reflect actual incidents? It doesn't and for those of us who would actually like to know what the real problem iswand perhaps a remedy of the same, it's just more histrionic noise done for clicks. It just recreates a possible condition to demonstrate something. Very simple. Unless the possible condition in question involves a screw stuck in the firearm it does not recreate anything. Scientific method, how does it work? He only inserted the screw to prove he wasn't pulling the trigger with his finger while he rocked the slide back and forth/up and down. It's like you are being intentionally obtuse. No he didn’t. He inserted the screw to depress the trigger—he said so himself. |