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Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:38:02 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
I shot a burglar last Feb at my house (case goes to court 11July). I cannot even begin to list the MANY tactical mistakes I made in dealing with that jackass. Like you, I came out ok.

Hopefully we can both learn from our encounters & not make the same mistake twice. My nightmare from my burglar is: what if he had been armed & shooting? Since you opened your door to a totally unknown situation, you too took unnecessary chances.
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Can you post the whole story?

Everytime somebody posts a defense story, and it's after legal stuff, and then the forum picks it apart,  we all end up learning something that could save our asses down the line.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:46:18 AM EDT
[#2]
I am interested as well, but please do not post anything until you get a final order in the case.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 4:59:08 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Personally, I wouldn't have shown the AR unless it got hinkey and he wouldn't leave. Now he knows you have a nice, expensive toy they may think about making theirs.

Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't know just how hinkey it was there.
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How could you NOT show the AR?

It doesn't matter what you have for a gun, if you show it they are going to know you have something worth stealing. The alternative is to never use your guns to defend yourself- or to shoot EVERYONE you think is suspicious just so it can be a secret.

Neither of those is a very practical alternative now are they?
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I didn't say he couldn't use the gun. From his post, he had the gun, but it wasn't visible to the guy outsid: ". The guy acted very strange, so I moved the AR-15 into his view."

Re-Read his post. He had it with him and the guy didn't see the AR until he made an effort to show him he was armed. So he was able to not show the AR and still be armed.

My point was that it wasn't necessary to actually show the guy the AR at the time, based on what he posted. Of course, he may have ad a totally different reading of the situation from his point of view.

The less info any potential burglar knows about your home and your possessions, the safer those things are.

Personally, I'd have one hand on a pistol in the pocket of my robe and an AK near the door. No need to show your cards before the visitor does.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 5:40:33 AM EDT
[#4]
M4Maddness-You should never open the door,talk through the door.Unless the door gets kicked or shouldered off the hinges.The advantage is to you.
I'm glad you & the family are okay.
Ask around about the name you heard they mentioned to find out who these guys might be.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:02:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Depending on your arsenal, I'd say there was a second mistake made: picking up a rifle instead of a shotgun or large-caliber handgun.

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Go for a good 45 pistol. It leaves one hand free to use the phone, turn on lights, and open interior doors (please never open the front door for possible intruders again). The 45 is much easier than a long gun in tight, dynamic situations and is much less likely to be taken from you if you use some basic retention technique. Long guns are better used in defensive positions like holding a safe room. The safe room concept is probably your safest option but in the real world sometimes you have to investigate the situation. The cops get tired of coming out to find the cat has knocked another glass off the counter. [:I]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 6:58:39 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:19:00 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Another trick I've heard is for a young woman to knock on your door and ask to use the phone because her car broke down or some made up story, while her cohorts in crime hide in the bushes and rush you when you open the door. NEVER open you door to strangers. If someone wants to use your phone offer to make the call for them.
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And another trick, happened here in Phoenix: Man in coveralls, orange vest, hat and voltmeter ("portable gas detector") poses as city employee "looking for gas leak" in the area, asks woman who answers door to accompany him into rear yard as he waves his "gas detector" around the yard. Meanwhile, his buddies ransack the house.

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:23:01 AM EDT
[#8]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:29:45 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
I shot a burglar last Feb at my house (case goes to court 11July). ...
View Quote


... Damn! When you get out of litigation you need to tell us the story. If you haven't yet.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:34:01 AM EDT
[#10]
I'm buying it...   Actually I'd be kinda wired afterward (been there a few times) and would have probably gotten online and shared with others who could relate...

Ya did good...   Ya survived and learned...

My first was about a million years ago in Houston...   I caught and held two fugitives who hid beside the business I was running while the police went on down the street...

Mostly, I was showing off because there was a pretty lady there to watch...   After they were removed by the cops, I holstered my snubby and went back to work (very cool)..  The pretty lady couldn't see that I was using my left hand to stop my right one from shaking... [:D]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:35:28 AM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:38:30 AM EDT
[#12]
I know they are expensive... but how about automatic lights...

lets say your bedroom is on  the opposite side of the house from the window you hear cracking is. window is in the basement and you hit your remote control light for that room and the starwell. You grab your AK or Mini or Ar or 1300, 870, 1911, and a few magazines... and you sit at the top of your stairwell, by this time, he's probally left, with security system and all, but if they/he/she (I am an equal oppourtunity home defender [uzi]) is still there then you have an illuminated target, and you are still in fair darkness at the top of the stair well? just an Idea?

GLAD YOU AND YOUR WIFE ARE SAFE!!!!!!!!
NEXT TIME GET A DIGITAL LOCK FOR YOUR SAFE!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:47:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Glad to hear you and your family are safe M4. That's all that matters; the rest is in the wind.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 7:51:06 AM EDT
[#14]
It makes me glad that I buried 134 quart sized containers of hermetically sealed and electrically primed anfo in a 2 foot grid pattern around the perimeter of the house and in the yard.  All I have to do is push the panic button, and all 134 charges will launch 250 ball bearings each at potential home invaders.  I'm a little worried that I didn't put any in the trees though.

Just kidding.

M-4, having dealt with "the other side" for awhile, I know that the old "Is blah blah here" is a ploy to rob your house.  It is a very old trick.


balming
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:13:32 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Why do you people find what M4Madness posted to be a source of mirth? I didn't find anything particularly humerous in what he wrote?

Do you assume he is not telling the truth? Why?
View Quote


Think like M.A.S.H. My post was intended to drop a bit of humor into a serious situation to lighten the mood. (I made reference to the home defender who blasted off [b]ALL[/b] his ammo in a continuous warning shot mad minute....)

Scott

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:52:06 AM EDT
[#16]
Just a few days ago, my wife and I were alerted as to how vulnerable we are....

We slept in late one day last week, and when the kids went outside to play, they left the front door open...

While my wife and I were asleep, one of my brothers (that lives nearby) stopped over to see the new kitchen floor I just installed...

He knocked, but we didn't wake up...

He hollered in the door, but we didn't wake up...

He walked in the house, poked his head in our bedroom to see we were sleeping, went to the kitchen to inspect my work, and left, not wanting to disturb us...

I wasn't bothered that he came in the house, but I was really freaked out that I didn't even know he was there...

ANYONE could have come in and helped themselves to whatever they want...

The guns are locked-up, and in another room in the house(they get a room to themselves)...

This innocent situation has caused me to SERIOUSLY re-think my home security habits...

Maybe a buzzer wired to the door, or some kind of security system to wake me from my coma-like sleep...

An AR is getting hung in the bedroom now too...  



Glad to see things worked out for you M4M...

Buy the sound of it, things could have been REAL bad...

If you and your wife were in your 80's and unarmed, you would both have been victims of a home invasion...

If I were a smart badguy, I would have done EXACTLY what these guys did...

By playing dumb and innocent by knocking first, they could easily assess the level of threat inside the home, or if anyone was even home at all...

Put yourself in their shoes...

You are VERY lucky...
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:56:50 AM EDT
[#17]
All in all, I'd say you did pretty well.

It's good to learn from this and think about how to prepare and act differently for the future, but you're all unharmed, and that's the big thing.

Suggestion: If you live in rural Indiana, why not have a big, intimidating dog?

I would definitely try to find out discretely who these guys were and how they might have decided to come to YOUR door.

Not to get you paranoid, but you may want to think about who's seen you shooting or handling your arms lately, who's been over and who their friends are, have you made any major purchases lately, have you had any cleaning people, repairmen or other workers on the property, etc.
Was your car clearly visible in the driveway?

It's nice to have a way to observe who's there without even responding to the knock.  I mean what's the next step after they find out no one is home (they think)?  Good reason to have a handgun or minimum-length shotgun in one hand when you do.

Those motion-detector automatic lights that  come on by themselves.   The fact that the light comes on doesn't mean someone's home.  Which allows you to observe without telling them anything.  Of course it's somewhat of a disadvantage, too, when you ARE gone.  The light coming on everytime they approach, tells them something.  I'd like to see one that has a random variable sensitivity.

My guess is, they may have been thinking no one was home and checking for an opportunity.

Now that you know about the blind spot, is there something you can do to eliminate or illuminate it?

Glad you could laugh at the parody - your subject line reminded me so much of the NAKED-GUNMAN incident and the Johnny_Reno spoof that followed, I just had to do it.   I never thought that your post was anything but genuine.

Get a dog  Get a dog  Get a dog  Get a dog  
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 10:58:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Can you post the whole story?
View Quote


I already have once. Do a search on my name as author, I guess?

As I say, I can't EVEN begin to count the number of screw-ups I did!!!
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:02:15 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
BobCole, I wish you well.  This tidbit of information sounds ominous as neither of you should "go to court."  He (the burglar) should be dead and you should have no charges pending.  Best wishes.  Please let us know the outcome.  
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This court date is his indictment from the GJ for Aggravatged Burglarly (sp?) & Agg. Assualt (vehicular).

I have, however, since changed my ammo brands. >gg<
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:08:00 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
The proper response is to fire fifty+ warning shots into the air....


Scott

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[img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif[/img]

Link Posted: 7/4/2002 11:12:07 AM EDT
[#21]
M4,
I believe you just successfully circumvented a home invasion.  Congratulations.  These HIs are quite popular in the Northwest.  I never open the door for knockers(or pounders) anymore.  If I do not know them, any neccesary discussion can be had through a locked door.  I like to greet a knocker by "identify yourself!".  Which communicates a no bullsh*t attitude which both LEOs and criminals appreciate.  I have also learned from this forum to keep a mag light on top of the safe.  Thanks for sharing this experience.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:09:19 PM EDT
[#22]
GLAD YOU ARE SAFE...

Just to reiterate what some others have said here already...Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch drills this saying into your head while there:

"YOU STAY ALERT AND LOOK AROUND YOU BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT WOLVES TRAVEL IN PACKS!"

He would say almost every time we had finished shooting a string of shots on a target...just because the threat has been taken down, doesn't mean more threats aren't out there.

God's blessings on you and your wife...glad to hear you were safe.
Link Posted: 7/4/2002 12:12:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:22:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:28:12 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:32:54 AM EDT
[#26]
Shit [shock]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 11:52:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 12:22:19 PM EDT
[#28]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 1:00:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
No, Jeremy, doesn't live here, but[b] let me introduce you to my little friend[/b] <[i]in my best Al Pacino Cuban brogue[/i]>
View Quote


ROFLMAO!!! [:D] Good one!!

[b]ArmaLiter[/b]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 2:32:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 2:44:12 PM EDT
[#31]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 2:52:42 PM EDT
[#32]
M4M: Way to be, brother! I'm very glad you and your wife are okay. I won't Friday-afternoon quarterback you, but I will say that I hope you put into practice anything you learned from this experience, as well as make any changes to your home security arrangements that were revealed by the situation.

Again though, good on ya, man!
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 3:13:30 PM EDT
[#33]
M4Madness,
id suggest contacting the police with a description of your encounter with these  suspects and give them a description of them.
id also have them run the name the guy asked for "Jeremy ****" maybe you can help nail these guys. and id be on my toes, if the guy who was at your door, and the guy who did the shooting are the same people, then he may be thinking your a witness . be careful
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 3:20:59 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
That's always something I've wondered about as I've heard some who are against the "light 'em up" tactic.

It's said that by using a flashlight to illuminate your target/foe, you immediately send out a "shoot here" beacon for them or their flankers to know your position in the dark whereas if you stay dark, you are just as obscured as they are.

I wouldn't want to broadcast my position in the dark to the BG or any of his buddies, but I also understand that actually SEEING your target has immense advantages also.
View Quote


Try this excercise then.

Have a friend use something like a 2D cell MAG light or a Surefire tactical light and shine it in your eyes.  If you use the 2D cell MAG light, consider that a Surefire is considerably brighter.  Even with the MAG light, your first response will be to close your eyes.  

While this is possibly not very effective in a multiple target encounter, it's always good to have a good flashlight handy at home and in your concealed carry gear for target acquisition/distinction in dark environments.  The blinding aspects are just an added bonus.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 3:39:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Good thing that you were ready to display your AR to a couple of guys that were looking for your neighbors' house.
"acted very strange", eh?  But couldn't describe the man, nor his attire, nor his vehicle. . . I wonder what qualifies as "strange" behavior in your part of the "rural area".
View Quote


Pounding on my door in the early AM would get the same response from me and the cop next door.  Furthermore, stressful situations are known to cause alterations of perception.  You obviously aren't familiar with any of Ayoob's writings on stressful defensive encounters.

To prove my point, two weeks ago my wife and I were driving home with our two children and almost got sideswiped by some kids who were drinking in their car and were obviously drunk.  My wife didn't get the license plate number and couldn't even ID the guys because almost being hit by them had unnerved her so.  It unnerved me as well, as my entire family was in the car, but I did get the license plate and a good description of the driver and the car because I conciously looked for them.  But when I called the Sherrif when I got home to report the kids, I could only remember the first three digits of the license plate.  The dispatcher said I gave more info than most people are capable of.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 4:52:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:11:05 PM EDT
[#37]
BobCole,

I think the thread got deleted for your legal protection. I take it that there are no charges against you?

What brand of ammo were you using, btw? Did you shoot through the windshield glass?
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:17:18 PM EDT
[#38]
M4,
Thanks for posting your story. You have held up well against the questions. I have several of the button lights that were mentioned earlier in the thread, but have not mounted yet. They are going up this weekend. I am also looking for some fresh light sticks to place in strategic locations as well.

You have opened up my eyes with your experience and am taking a second hard look at our security plans. I am beginning to think I need a carbine upstairs with us. Running into an underground basement (one way out)to retrieve the big hardware doesn't sound like a good idea any more.

Link Posted: 7/5/2002 6:45:09 PM EDT
[#39]
M4 Alls well that ends well, good for you!   But in saying that I say the gun safe is to keep bad guys out(not you) I use to keep a 1911 around but allways wondered what would happen if I took a hit to my weak hand(as I don't keep one in the pike)So I keep a mod 29 revolver in 44mag next to the computer.  


As far as something out of the safe,or locked closet it is a New England Arms 10 Gua 3and1/2 mag  with turkey load in it(one extra made in the stock)    But all in all its best to keep a short shot gun,or pistol you are good with at hand.      Keep that AK/AR/15  for group encounters.


 Good going though,just make it a habit if you point it Shoot it.

  Bob   [8D]
Link Posted: 7/5/2002 7:40:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
The only advantage of a rifle is that it'll hit harder if you manage to point it in the right direction when yanking the trigger.  Even then, if you've got it loaded with FMJ, it's still not going to do as well as a .45 with HP's or a 12ga load of #4's. JMHO.
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Read the subject: he was using an AR-15! At that range a fragmenting round like M193 or M855 will significantly outperform any handgun round. He made the right choice though I would have brought a back-up handgun with me.
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 3:15:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The only advantage of a rifle is that it'll hit harder if you manage to point it in the right direction when yanking the trigger.  Even then, if you've got it loaded with FMJ, it's still not going to do as well as a .45 with HP's or a 12ga load of #4's. JMHO.
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Read the subject: he was using an AR-15! At that range a fragmenting round like M193 or M855 will significantly outperform any handgun round. He made the right choice though I would have brought a back-up handgun with me.
View Quote

I notice that your reading comprehension is suboptimal.  Perhaps you should upgrade to the new "neanderthal" brain model.

The reason for picking a handgun over a rifle when you are out and about, as at least one other person has pointed out, is that it is a lot easier to maneuver around and is less likely to be grabbed and taken away from you.  It does you very little good to have a "fragmenting round like M855 or M193" loaded in your rifle when the robber has his hand on the muzzle and has yanked it to point at the ceiling.

When it's late at night, and I'm in bed, and I hear a noise I want to investigate, I drag my handgun around the house with me.  When I hear a noise and I don't want to investigate, I pull my shotgun from next to the bed and wait with it pointed at the bedroom door.  What I don't do is drag my shotgun (or a rifle) from room to room, maneuvering it through doorways and around junk, hoping that in the end I find myself far enough away from Mr. Home Invader to be able to point it at him.

Does comprehension rejoice within you now?
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 5:17:42 AM EDT
[#42]
Link Posted: 7/6/2002 6:55:44 AM EDT
[#43]
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