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Quoted: I shot a burglar last Feb at my house (case goes to court 11July). I cannot even begin to list the MANY tactical mistakes I made in dealing with that jackass. Like you, I came out ok. Hopefully we can both learn from our encounters & not make the same mistake twice. My nightmare from my burglar is: what if he had been armed & shooting? Since you opened your door to a totally unknown situation, you too took unnecessary chances. View Quote Can you post the whole story? Everytime somebody posts a defense story, and it's after legal stuff, and then the forum picks it apart, we all end up learning something that could save our asses down the line. |
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I am interested as well, but please do not post anything until you get a final order in the case.
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Quoted: Quoted: Personally, I wouldn't have shown the AR unless it got hinkey and he wouldn't leave. Now he knows you have a nice, expensive toy they may think about making theirs. Of course, I wasn't there, so I don't know just how hinkey it was there. View Quote How could you NOT show the AR? It doesn't matter what you have for a gun, if you show it they are going to know you have something worth stealing. The alternative is to never use your guns to defend yourself- or to shoot EVERYONE you think is suspicious just so it can be a secret. Neither of those is a very practical alternative now are they? View Quote I didn't say he couldn't use the gun. From his post, he had the gun, but it wasn't visible to the guy outsid: ". The guy acted very strange, so I moved the AR-15 into his view." Re-Read his post. He had it with him and the guy didn't see the AR until he made an effort to show him he was armed. So he was able to not show the AR and still be armed. My point was that it wasn't necessary to actually show the guy the AR at the time, based on what he posted. Of course, he may have ad a totally different reading of the situation from his point of view. The less info any potential burglar knows about your home and your possessions, the safer those things are. Personally, I'd have one hand on a pistol in the pocket of my robe and an AK near the door. No need to show your cards before the visitor does. |
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M4Maddness-You should never open the door,talk through the door.Unless the door gets kicked or shouldered off the hinges.The advantage is to you.
I'm glad you & the family are okay. Ask around about the name you heard they mentioned to find out who these guys might be. |
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Quoted: Depending on your arsenal, I'd say there was a second mistake made: picking up a rifle instead of a shotgun or large-caliber handgun. View Quote Go for a good 45 pistol. It leaves one hand free to use the phone, turn on lights, and open interior doors (please never open the front door for possible intruders again). The 45 is much easier than a long gun in tight, dynamic situations and is much less likely to be taken from you if you use some basic retention technique. Long guns are better used in defensive positions like holding a safe room. The safe room concept is probably your safest option but in the real world sometimes you have to investigate the situation. The cops get tired of coming out to find the cat has knocked another glass off the counter. [:I] |
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Well, guys, after 8 hours sleep I must say I feel pretty good. There were no more disturbances last night. Hey, my wife and I even laughed at the spoof thread. It would be pretty farfetched for it to have been that simple. First, I know every single neighbor in both directions for at least a mile both ways. There is no one by the name Jeremy ***** anywhere near me. I will be asking a few people today if they have heard of him. Secondly, our FULL names are in very large letters on the mailbox. It would be hard to mistake our residence for another. Yes, I know that I wasn't prepared and made a few mistakes. The point of posting it here was to reveal those mistakes to others so that they can learn from my blunders without having to put themselves at risk to find out for themselves. My first response was to lie there quietly and let them leave on their own. After they returned to the vehicle, I made my move to the gun safe. This is when the pounding at the door started again. And to answer an earlier question, I locked the gun safe after removing the AR-15. I'm funny about that. I even lock it back if I remove a firearm to clean or something, even if I stay in the same room. A shotgun would be my first choice for home defense, but I would have to dig to the back of the safe to retrieve it. As for a .45, I ordered one recently, but it has not arrived yet. Like I said in my original post, I held the rifle behind the wall out of view. Even when I displayed it, it was never pointed at the guy. I even made a statement to the dispatcher on the phone that I displayed the weapon. The guy did not act drunk, at least no slurred speech. He actions were deliberate, but you could tell he was nervous and kept looking around. After I informed him that no one by that name lived here, he continued standing there fidgeting and asking if I was sure. He was larger than myself (wife says both men were). I felt that by displaying the weapon, I could lean him to the lawful side of the situation, if he was contemplating wrongdoing. I figure once he knew I was armed, he would forego any plans he had and vacate the premises. I did not threaten him with the weapon. I do not see any LAWFUL reason for the second subject to be hiding in my blindspot. If it were as simple as a mistaken residence, why hide in the shadows? All's well that ends well. Hopefully they know that I mean to defend our lives and property and will spread the word. From this day forward, I will be a hell of a lot more prepared. Keep the criticism coming as needed, we could probably all use a little education. Thanks!
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Quoted: Another trick I've heard is for a young woman to knock on your door and ask to use the phone because her car broke down or some made up story, while her cohorts in crime hide in the bushes and rush you when you open the door. NEVER open you door to strangers. If someone wants to use your phone offer to make the call for them. View Quote |
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Quoted: Quoted: I must give credit to my inspiration, Johnny_Reno [url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=124445[/url] These parodies from the "perp"'s point of view actually have a side-effect which I think is beneficial: thinking about how you might have an accusation laid on you like One Shot One Kill did, if the jackass went and called the Sheriff on YOU. View Quote Well MAYBE... but you see there are such large regional differences. What happend to One Shot simply COULD NOT happen in Arizona, or in any of thirty other states. At the same time, there are several stats, New York and California at the top of the list, where what M4Madness did would get him put in jail. And in those places we do need to encourage our people to use caution. Dont know where Indiana rates on that- hope he does! However in States where it is safe to do so we should encourage people to exercise their rights to the fullest extent, so that the "others" become used to it. And maybe even some will become converted... View Quote Oddly enough in one's home in California one can wear any firearm legal to own. If I answer the door with my legally owned firearm at oh dark thirty I dare you to find a court (yes, even in California) that would convict me for answering with a firearm. The only charge might be brandishing. Thanks, but I'll take the risk with the jury and not the thugs at the door. The California law also applies to ones camp ground too so when camping on BLM land where there ought not to be any visitors I'm always armed. Now to the tactics. I would think that the bums could have rushed you faster than you could have brought the carbine up. Wrestling with two men and a long weapon is a bad thing. Even if they were armed with just knifes the distance is far too close. I would have had the conversation though the door. No reason at all to open it. I would assume that you have at least a porch light which should have been used to light them up. If they kept up the assault on the front door I announce to them (and the 911 operator) "I have a gun, I've called the police, get away from my door" and then stood back from the door behind cover waiting for the door to get kicked open. My own front door has a nice narrow approach about 20 feet long that is between the garage and the front room. There are lights at both ends of this corrador and windows looking sideways to the door. A small surveilance camera looks down from the roof covering that 20 feet. I can pop on any television in the house and watch the front door. The side door has an IR camera with motion sensor lights. The backyard and patio door will have one soon to match its motion sensor lights and 15W night light that illuminates the area closest to the back of the house. The last thing I want to do is to open the door to my home blind. |
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Quoted: I shot a burglar last Feb at my house (case goes to court 11July). ... View Quote ... Damn! When you get out of litigation you need to tell us the story. If you haven't yet. |
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I'm buying it... Actually I'd be kinda wired afterward (been there a few times) and would have probably gotten online and shared with others who could relate...
Ya did good... Ya survived and learned... My first was about a million years ago in Houston... I caught and held two fugitives who hid beside the business I was running while the police went on down the street... Mostly, I was showing off because there was a pretty lady there to watch... After they were removed by the cops, I holstered my snubby and went back to work (very cool).. The pretty lady couldn't see that I was using my left hand to stop my right one from shaking... [:D] |
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Quoted: Quoted: I shot a burglar last Feb at my house (case goes to court 11July). ... View Quote ... Damn! When you get out of litigation you need to tell us the story. If you haven't yet. View Quote BobCole, I wish you well. This tidbit of information sounds ominous as neither of you should "go to court." He (the burglar) should be dead and you should have no charges pending. Best wishes. Please let us know the outcome. |
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I know they are expensive... but how about automatic lights...
lets say your bedroom is on the opposite side of the house from the window you hear cracking is. window is in the basement and you hit your remote control light for that room and the starwell. You grab your AK or Mini or Ar or 1300, 870, 1911, and a few magazines... and you sit at the top of your stairwell, by this time, he's probally left, with security system and all, but if they/he/she (I am an equal oppourtunity home defender [uzi]) is still there then you have an illuminated target, and you are still in fair darkness at the top of the stair well? just an Idea? GLAD YOU AND YOUR WIFE ARE SAFE!!!!!!!! NEXT TIME GET A DIGITAL LOCK FOR YOUR SAFE! |
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Glad to hear you and your family are safe M4. That's all that matters; the rest is in the wind.
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It makes me glad that I buried 134 quart sized containers of hermetically sealed and electrically primed anfo in a 2 foot grid pattern around the perimeter of the house and in the yard. All I have to do is push the panic button, and all 134 charges will launch 250 ball bearings each at potential home invaders. I'm a little worried that I didn't put any in the trees though.
Just kidding. M-4, having dealt with "the other side" for awhile, I know that the old "Is blah blah here" is a ploy to rob your house. It is a very old trick. balming |
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Quoted: Why do you people find what M4Madness posted to be a source of mirth? I didn't find anything particularly humerous in what he wrote? Do you assume he is not telling the truth? Why? View Quote Think like M.A.S.H. My post was intended to drop a bit of humor into a serious situation to lighten the mood. (I made reference to the home defender who blasted off [b]ALL[/b] his ammo in a continuous warning shot mad minute....) Scott |
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Just a few days ago, my wife and I were alerted as to how vulnerable we are....
We slept in late one day last week, and when the kids went outside to play, they left the front door open... While my wife and I were asleep, one of my brothers (that lives nearby) stopped over to see the new kitchen floor I just installed... He knocked, but we didn't wake up... He hollered in the door, but we didn't wake up... He walked in the house, poked his head in our bedroom to see we were sleeping, went to the kitchen to inspect my work, and left, not wanting to disturb us... I wasn't bothered that he came in the house, but I was really freaked out that I didn't even know he was there... ANYONE could have come in and helped themselves to whatever they want... The guns are locked-up, and in another room in the house(they get a room to themselves)... This innocent situation has caused me to SERIOUSLY re-think my home security habits... Maybe a buzzer wired to the door, or some kind of security system to wake me from my coma-like sleep... An AR is getting hung in the bedroom now too... Glad to see things worked out for you M4M... Buy the sound of it, things could have been REAL bad... If you and your wife were in your 80's and unarmed, you would both have been victims of a home invasion... If I were a smart badguy, I would have done EXACTLY what these guys did... By playing dumb and innocent by knocking first, they could easily assess the level of threat inside the home, or if anyone was even home at all... Put yourself in their shoes... You are VERY lucky... |
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All in all, I'd say you did pretty well.
It's good to learn from this and think about how to prepare and act differently for the future, but you're all unharmed, and that's the big thing. Suggestion: If you live in rural Indiana, why not have a big, intimidating dog? I would definitely try to find out discretely who these guys were and how they might have decided to come to YOUR door. Not to get you paranoid, but you may want to think about who's seen you shooting or handling your arms lately, who's been over and who their friends are, have you made any major purchases lately, have you had any cleaning people, repairmen or other workers on the property, etc. Was your car clearly visible in the driveway? It's nice to have a way to observe who's there without even responding to the knock. I mean what's the next step after they find out no one is home (they think)? Good reason to have a handgun or minimum-length shotgun in one hand when you do. Those motion-detector automatic lights that come on by themselves. The fact that the light comes on doesn't mean someone's home. Which allows you to observe without telling them anything. Of course it's somewhat of a disadvantage, too, when you ARE gone. The light coming on everytime they approach, tells them something. I'd like to see one that has a random variable sensitivity. My guess is, they may have been thinking no one was home and checking for an opportunity. Now that you know about the blind spot, is there something you can do to eliminate or illuminate it? Glad you could laugh at the parody - your subject line reminded me so much of the NAKED-GUNMAN incident and the Johnny_Reno spoof that followed, I just had to do it. I never thought that your post was anything but genuine. Get a dog Get a dog Get a dog Get a dog |
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Quoted: Can you post the whole story? View Quote I already have once. Do a search on my name as author, I guess? As I say, I can't EVEN begin to count the number of screw-ups I did!!! |
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Quoted: BobCole, I wish you well. This tidbit of information sounds ominous as neither of you should "go to court." He (the burglar) should be dead and you should have no charges pending. Best wishes. Please let us know the outcome. View Quote This court date is his indictment from the GJ for Aggravatged Burglarly (sp?) & Agg. Assualt (vehicular). I have, however, since changed my ammo brands. >gg< |
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Quoted: The proper response is to fire fifty+ warning shots into the air.... Scott View Quote [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif[/img] |
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M4,
I believe you just successfully circumvented a home invasion. Congratulations. These HIs are quite popular in the Northwest. I never open the door for knockers(or pounders) anymore. If I do not know them, any neccesary discussion can be had through a locked door. I like to greet a knocker by "identify yourself!". Which communicates a no bullsh*t attitude which both LEOs and criminals appreciate. I have also learned from this forum to keep a mag light on top of the safe. Thanks for sharing this experience. |
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GLAD YOU ARE SAFE...
Just to reiterate what some others have said here already...Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch drills this saying into your head while there: "YOU STAY ALERT AND LOOK AROUND YOU BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT WOLVES TRAVEL IN PACKS!" He would say almost every time we had finished shooting a string of shots on a target...just because the threat has been taken down, doesn't mean more threats aren't out there. God's blessings on you and your wife...glad to hear you were safe. |
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Quoted: If you live in rural Indiana, why not have a big, intimidating dog? View Quote I have two hybrid wolves in a half acre enclosure behind the house that ONLY bark if there is a stranger in the yard. They also alert us to strange vehicles coming up the driveway. As it was very hot last night, they must have been back in the edge of the woods staying cool. We never heard a peep out of them, which is unusual. They cannot actually attack a perpetrator through the 6-foot high fence, but most of the locals know about them and are fearful just the same. |
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[b][size=3]UPDATE[/size=3][/b]
My wife and I just got home today and saw the latest edition of our local paper. The headline reads [i]"Couple Shot At Heltonville Home"[/i]. It appears that approximately five hours after our incident mentioned in the first post of this thread, a couple in another rural area of the same county we live were awakened by the sound of a car horn in their driveway. When they went outside to investigate, they were shot by a male in a small blue car (no make/model known). Both the man and woman are hospitalized; the man was shot multiple times in the torso and the woman in the face. It may just be a coincidence, but it happened within a few of hours of our incident and the vehicle that was in our driveway was a smaller dark blue vehicle about the size of an early '80s Ford Mustang. Makes you wonder anyway. I'm just glad that everything turned out well for us, and I pray that the injured couple will survive and that the perpetrators will be brought to justice. |
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Sounds like you were saved by the presence of the rifle then. Might have been the same pair as how crime ridden is your county?
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Quoted: How crime ridden is your county? View Quote We have a murder now and then. According to the last census, the population of Lawrence County is 46,000. Heck, a lot of cities have more people than our entire county. |
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d-d-d-damn M4! That could have been you and your wife! [shock]
I hope you contacted local cops and gave them the info on what happened to you. If not, you should. Let them decide if your incident is relevant or not. |
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Quoted: No, Jeremy, doesn't live here, but[b] let me introduce you to my little friend[/b] <[i]in my best Al Pacino Cuban brogue[/i]> View Quote ROFLMAO!!! [:D] Good one!! [b]ArmaLiter[/b] |
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M4Madness,
I read this thread a few times and I would like to say that you handled the AR15.com critique very well. It is great to see that you and your wife are OK. Yes, you made some mistakes, most of us will, but you posted this with good intentions, not worrying about how we would react to your mistakes you posted it to help us learn from them so we don't repeat them with deadly results. As many have said already, the door should never have been opened to a stranger, especially at night and even more so in the manner of which the person banged on your door. I find this a little suspicious behavior, it could have been nothing, but we must expect the worst or we will not be ready when it comes. I say this from personal experience because I lost my brother to a similar situation. He had an old neighborhood friend stop by our shop one morning and moments before I arrived, my brother had let him in and he was subsequently rushed by four armed men who were hiding around the sides of the entrance door. They ended up beating, robbing and then killing him. This wasn't even a stranger and this still happened, so please be carefull out there when someone is at your door. Don't worry about insulting someone by not opening the door to speak to them. |
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Quoted: Don't worry about insulting someone by not opening the door to speak to them. View Quote Amen to that! |
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M4M: Way to be, brother! I'm very glad you and your wife are okay. I won't Friday-afternoon quarterback you, but I will say that I hope you put into practice anything you learned from this experience, as well as make any changes to your home security arrangements that were revealed by the situation.
Again though, good on ya, man! |
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M4Madness,
id suggest contacting the police with a description of your encounter with these suspects and give them a description of them. id also have them run the name the guy asked for "Jeremy ****" maybe you can help nail these guys. and id be on my toes, if the guy who was at your door, and the guy who did the shooting are the same people, then he may be thinking your a witness . be careful |
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Quoted: That's always something I've wondered about as I've heard some who are against the "light 'em up" tactic. It's said that by using a flashlight to illuminate your target/foe, you immediately send out a "shoot here" beacon for them or their flankers to know your position in the dark whereas if you stay dark, you are just as obscured as they are. I wouldn't want to broadcast my position in the dark to the BG or any of his buddies, but I also understand that actually SEEING your target has immense advantages also. View Quote Try this excercise then. Have a friend use something like a 2D cell MAG light or a Surefire tactical light and shine it in your eyes. If you use the 2D cell MAG light, consider that a Surefire is considerably brighter. Even with the MAG light, your first response will be to close your eyes. While this is possibly not very effective in a multiple target encounter, it's always good to have a good flashlight handy at home and in your concealed carry gear for target acquisition/distinction in dark environments. The blinding aspects are just an added bonus. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Quoted: Good thing that you were ready to display your AR to a couple of guys that were looking for your neighbors' house. "acted very strange", eh? But couldn't describe the man, nor his attire, nor his vehicle. . . I wonder what qualifies as "strange" behavior in your part of the "rural area". View Quote Pounding on my door in the early AM would get the same response from me and the cop next door. Furthermore, stressful situations are known to cause alterations of perception. You obviously aren't familiar with any of Ayoob's writings on stressful defensive encounters. To prove my point, two weeks ago my wife and I were driving home with our two children and almost got sideswiped by some kids who were drinking in their car and were obviously drunk. My wife didn't get the license plate number and couldn't even ID the guys because almost being hit by them had unnerved her so. It unnerved me as well, as my entire family was in the car, but I did get the license plate and a good description of the driver and the car because I conciously looked for them. But when I called the Sherrif when I got home to report the kids, I could only remember the first three digits of the license plate. The dispatcher said I gave more info than most people are capable of. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
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Yeah, chances are slim that the same persons were involved in both instances, but you just never can tell. Definitely better safe than sorry. If it turns out that the shooting was a random act, then it shows me how easily it could have been my wife and I had they chosen my house. Hopefully my judgement and aim would have been true had I needed to discharge my weapon in self defense. As for notifying the police, my wife gave the dispatcher a good description of both subjects involved in our incident that night. The only description she gave of the vehicle was that it was a mid-sized car possibly dark blue. I thought that it looked somewhat like an early '80's Ford Mustang. It was parked in the dark, so it was very hard to see anything about it other than its size. Both situations have shown me the need to be prepared. Last year should have been enough. Just down the road from me a gentleman came home to find four subjects burglarizing his home. They fired shots at him as they fled in a vehicle. He pursued UNARMED in his truck. When he rounded the corner, they were parked broadside in the road SHOOTING. He rammed their vehicle and the gunman ran up to his truck and raised the pistol at pointblank range. The gun jammed and the suspects fled into the woods across from my home. They were apprehended within a few hours. The guy now has a large fence around his home and did go out and buy a firearm after that. I saw in the paper where he tried to sue the suspects for monetary compensation for the price of his vehicle, security measures, and the firearm he bought to protect himself and his family. He was denied any compensation for these things by the court. Dangerous situations like these seldom happen near my home, but once is too much.
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BobCole,
I think the thread got deleted for your legal protection. I take it that there are no charges against you? What brand of ammo were you using, btw? Did you shoot through the windshield glass? |
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M4,
Thanks for posting your story. You have held up well against the questions. I have several of the button lights that were mentioned earlier in the thread, but have not mounted yet. They are going up this weekend. I am also looking for some fresh light sticks to place in strategic locations as well. You have opened up my eyes with your experience and am taking a second hard look at our security plans. I am beginning to think I need a carbine upstairs with us. Running into an underground basement (one way out)to retrieve the big hardware doesn't sound like a good idea any more. |
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M4 Alls well that ends well, good for you! But in saying that I say the gun safe is to keep bad guys out(not you) I use to keep a 1911 around but allways wondered what would happen if I took a hit to my weak hand(as I don't keep one in the pike)So I keep a mod 29 revolver in 44mag next to the computer.
As far as something out of the safe,or locked closet it is a New England Arms 10 Gua 3and1/2 mag with turkey load in it(one extra made in the stock) But all in all its best to keep a short shot gun,or pistol you are good with at hand. Keep that AK/AR/15 for group encounters. Good going though,just make it a habit if you point it Shoot it. Bob [8D] |
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Quoted: The only advantage of a rifle is that it'll hit harder if you manage to point it in the right direction when yanking the trigger. Even then, if you've got it loaded with FMJ, it's still not going to do as well as a .45 with HP's or a 12ga load of #4's. JMHO. View Quote Read the subject: he was using an AR-15! At that range a fragmenting round like M193 or M855 will significantly outperform any handgun round. He made the right choice though I would have brought a back-up handgun with me. |
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Quoted: Quoted: The only advantage of a rifle is that it'll hit harder if you manage to point it in the right direction when yanking the trigger. Even then, if you've got it loaded with FMJ, it's still not going to do as well as a .45 with HP's or a 12ga load of #4's. JMHO. View Quote Read the subject: he was using an AR-15! At that range a fragmenting round like M193 or M855 will significantly outperform any handgun round. He made the right choice though I would have brought a back-up handgun with me. View Quote I notice that your reading comprehension is suboptimal. Perhaps you should upgrade to the new "neanderthal" brain model. The reason for picking a handgun over a rifle when you are out and about, as at least one other person has pointed out, is that it is a lot easier to maneuver around and is less likely to be grabbed and taken away from you. It does you very little good to have a "fragmenting round like M855 or M193" loaded in your rifle when the robber has his hand on the muzzle and has yanked it to point at the ceiling. When it's late at night, and I'm in bed, and I hear a noise I want to investigate, I drag my handgun around the house with me. When I hear a noise and I don't want to investigate, I pull my shotgun from next to the bed and wait with it pointed at the bedroom door. What I don't do is drag my shotgun (or a rifle) from room to room, maneuvering it through doorways and around junk, hoping that in the end I find myself far enough away from Mr. Home Invader to be able to point it at him. Does comprehension rejoice within you now? |
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M4- Sounds like you are mature enough to take the well meant criticism here, glad you and yours are safe. A follow up regarding "opening the door" Our CCW instructor posed this question to the class- A man and young girl come to your door, the girl is bleeding badly and in obvious pain, they franticly ask for help... do you open the door? NO! You dial 911 and wait. Scenes like this can be created to gain access. NEVER open your doors. Gene
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Thanks to all for their replies, well-wishing, and criticism. Some folks do not get a second chance to correct their self-defense maneuvers. Luckily our situation didn't end with ill effects. I have picked up a few pointers and now realize the need to keep a firearm handy at all times. I use my safe as a means to protect my firearms investment from theft and possible fire. I just never gave too much thought to what would happen in the event that I needed to retrieve one in a hurry. I am a firm believer in using a shotgun for home security. I only grabbed one of the AR-15's due to the fact that it was in the front of the safe and the easiest to access. Thanks again for all of the advice.
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