Quoted: You have no idea what a longshoreman does do you? What do you think the going rate is for heavy equipment operators? How much do you make to stand there and judge what I do? Like I said, do you know what dock workers do now? How can I judge what you do when you haven't posted what that might be aside from that fact that you get well paid for it? And no one is making anyone or their family disappear. You been watching too many movies. I've seen plenty of union guys threaten people, you included. As far as the people coming to take our jobs, we have a contract that will be around long after you are gone pal. And this justifies your pay how? So no one is coming in and taking anything away. All you anti union guys bitching like high school girls are pissing in the wind because there isn't anything you can do about it and that bothers the hell out of you. Once again, you talk about how unions are here to stay & all but say nothing (after people asking lots of times) about actually justifying how overpaid you are.

I'm sure you'll respond with telling me how you guys are here to stay again... why don't you describe a day of your work instead? I'd love to know what kind of work day earns more than $500.

I am a working class guy.  And, as I said, this is MY experience with "unions".  I did not claim any authority, just what happens with me.

Quoted: Quoted: You know how long guys like you have been so jealous of unions guys making good money? Do you know how long guys like you have tried to bust unions? Ain't gonna happen slick and there's more than a few guys who thought so, gee I wonder where those guys are now ? Don't like the longshoreman's union? Too fucking bad! Come down to the local and I'll see if I can get you a book LOL Again, you gloat that you make lots of money but don't address the fact that you are vastly overpaid for you work. If someone made $150 an hour to flip burgers at McDonalds would you consider that earning their money? Many people would do your job for half the pay & benefits, you will hear from them eventually. No matter how much you say "yea, we'll kick their asses & make their family disappear" they will still come.

The funny part of your post is your last paragraph, because someone will do the same thing to you, and the company you work for will be more then happy to pay them half of what you make also.

Damn, I wish I could be a CEO and make millions, all the while losing 20 billion dollars on poor product, engineering, aquisitions, and market trends. But it's always the union worker in the end. I'm not even a fan of unions, but to blame Americas economic problems on unions is a lie. The majority of the blame goes to management who fail to do the job they were paid to do. Namely, manage the company and maintain a sustainable long term profit. Don't mean shit to make 1 billion for a quarter, then lose 5 the next 2. Unless it's that new math that keeps on popping up.

when i finally got into my union job, they only allowed me in because of the years of trade school i went to, experience, and attitude.  they then sent me to 5 more years of training that taught me about things i would have never seen/done as a non-union member.

I get paid well over 15 dollars an hour than i did as non-union, but i have so much training and experience, there is no doubt that the job will be done correctly and without delays.

I am a very strong supported of unions, since i am a member.  Union does not hire any person off the street, they make sure you are a qualified candidate and then train you to become better than a non-union worker.

Just my .02 cents

Quoted: Quoted: You have no idea what a longshoreman does do you? What do you think the going rate is for heavy equipment operators? How much do you make to stand there and judge what I do? Like I said, do you know what dock workers do now? How can I judge what you do when you haven't posted what that might be aside from that fact that you get well paid for it? Look it up, do your own homework, you critisised me, remember? And no one is making anyone or their family disappear. You been watching too many movies. I've seen plenty of union guys threaten people, you included. Ok post a link to where I threatened anyone here. As far as the people coming to take our jobs, we have a contract that will be around long after you are gone pal. And this justifies your pay how? So no one is coming in and taking anything away. All you anti union guys bitching like high school girls are pissing in the wind because there isn't anything you can do about it and that bothers the hell out of you. Once again, you talk about how unions are here to stay & all but say nothing (after people asking lots of times) about actually justifying how overpaid you are. Here's a clue, I don't have to justify my pay to you or anyone else, do you? You claim I'm overpaid, prove it with facts instead of your selfserving opinion I'm sure you'll respond with telling me how you guys are here to stay again... why don't you describe a day of your work instead? I'd love to know what kind of work day earns more than $500.

Do you know how many jobs there are that pay 500 a day and more?
I was working in sales this last year and made 2800 a week average, how come you're not bithching about what some sales guys make?
You know what the problem here is, some of you guys never made real money and have no clue that the rest go out and get paid.  

Quoted: when i finally got into my union job, they only allowed me in because of the years of trade school i went to, experience, and attitude.  they then sent me to 5 more years of training that taught me about things i would have never seen/done as a non-union member. I get paid well over 15 dollars an hour than i did as non-union, but i have so much training and experience, there is no doubt that the job will be done correctly and without delays. I am a very strong supported of unions, since i am a member.  Union does not hire any person off the street, they make sure you are a qualified candidate and then train you to become better than a non-union worker. Just my .02 cents

Good post.
Most guys I know advance through training.
These guys think they are gonna let some untrained drone operate a super crane.

Quoted: Quoted: I am a union Pipefitter with 26 yrs experience. I have worked in non union shops during that time period as well. There was no comparison as far as wages, having decent medical, better concern for safety, paid overtime, paid holidays, paid vacation. I must be more fucked up than I realize for wanting the above benefits and a middle class wage? My life is on the line every single day I work. Union Christian Republican Gun owning Southern born and bred Redneck and would you, while on strike, beat up replacements, and, damage property...because..."Oh...We'er on strike so, it's ok?"

No I would not do any of the above. I don't agree with those tactics. Gives unions a bad name I am a professional. All I have to sell is my skills and professionalism. I'm as much for the company as they are for me. So far it's been a good relationship. I would picket. If it came to that.
Kevin

Quoted: The funny part of your post is your last paragraph, because someone will do the same thing to you, and the company you work for will be more then happy to pay them half of what you make also.

It's called capitalism.

The point as far as this discussion goes is that I AM the other (non union) guy. If I was union I'm sure I'd get paid $60 an hour do sit on my ass but instead I get paid less than $20 per hour to actually WORK. The company I'm with is pretty small but we've grown well every year for 10 years and I like that I had a big part in that. I'm not overpaid at all (a little underpaid for what I do to be honest) but I work for a good boss & I feel a lot of loyalty to him & the company that I helped grow.

Thats a little different job description than Jrzy gives huh?

Quoted: I was working in sales this last year and made 2800 a week average, how come you're not bithching about what some sales guys make?

Because sales (for commission) is directly related to your earning ability for the company, unlike union work.

Quoted: Quoted: The funny part of your post is your last paragraph, because someone will do the same thing to you, and the company you work for will be more then happy to pay them half of what you make also. It's called capitalism. The point as far as this discussion goes is that I AM the other (non union) guy. If I was union I'm sure I'd get paid $60 an hour do sit on my ass but instead I get paid less than $20 per hour to actually WORK. The company I'm with is pretty small but we've grown well every year for 10 years and I like that I had a big part in that. I'm not overpaid at all (a little underpaid for what I do to be honest) but I work for a good boss & I feel a lot of loyalty to him & the company that I helped grow. Thats a little different job description than Jrzy gives huh?

Yeah I hope he takes care of you in your retirement.
How much does loyalty pay anyway?
You do know if push comes to shove and the co. was in trouble he would can your ass in NY minute?

Making under 20 bucks an hour is nothing to be ashamed of but it does show why you're so pissed at guys who make 500  a day.

"(a little underpaid for what I do to be honest)"

I guess the loyalty isn't reciprocal huh?

Quoted: Quoted: The funny part of your post is your last paragraph, because someone will do the same thing to you, and the company you work for will be more then happy to pay them half of what you make also. It's called capitalism. The point as far as this discussion goes is that I AM the other (non union) guy. If I was union I'm sure I'd get paid $60 an hour do sit on my ass but instead I get paid less than $20 per hour to actually WORK. The company I'm with is pretty small but we've grown well every year for 10 years and I like that I had a big part in that. I'm not overpaid at all (a little underpaid for what I do to be honest) but I work for a good boss & I feel a lot of loyalty to him & the company that I helped grow. Thats a little different job description than Jrzy gives huh?

So because you become a union member, that means that you automatically sit on your ass,  get paid more and do nothing?  That is one of the most ridiculous statements i've heard.  becoming a union member, i have worked harder than i did as a non-union member, get paid more than union scale, and have been rewarded because of my work, not because i'm a union member.  sorry you work hard for $20 an hour, but like posted before, complain and keep working there or find another job that pays more for your skill.

I like the article on yahoo right now the UAW is crying that they will have to pay  $370 A YEAR for health insurance
or god forbid a family has to pay like $750    damn shame i tell ya fucking over those poor union folk
i worked at the state and union was optional the only ones that belonged were worthless dregs that worked the system more than they ever worked the job
were always getting "hurt" or going off to some arbitration for some shit

Quoted: Quoted: I was working in sales this last year and made 2800 a week average, how come you're not bithching about what some sales guys make? Because sales (for commission) is directly related to your earning ability for the company, unlike union work.

Really?
I guess you don't understand basic economics.
Everything around you that you are seeing right now was moved in some fashion by guys you're bad mouthing, guys getting paid a decent living wage.
Guys advancing their childrens education so they can go into a profession so they don't have to work on the docks in sweltering heat and subzero temps.

One way or the other that freight gets to you no matter how hot or how cold or who was crushed by falling freight.

By the way, you're welcome.

Quoted: Yeah I hope he takes care of you in your retirement. We have mutual funds How much does loyalty pay anyway? You do know if push comes to shove and the co. was in trouble he would can your ass in NY minute? No he wouldn't & he's proved that several times... I won't go into detail but the loyalty he's shown me is part of the reason I'm "slightly underpaid" for him rather than overpaid for a cutthroat company that I don't feel as secure with. Making under 20 bucks an hour is nothing to be ashamed of but it does show why you're so pissed at guys who make 500  a day. Might help to know that the cost of living here is much lower than where you are. For example, here a decent 2 bedroom house would run about $80-120k I guess the loyalty isn't reciprocal huh? It is and then some.

I.B.E.W.  Local Union #3 Electrician

Thats my title and i am FUCKING PROUD of it. I  bust my ass at work just like everyone else. I'm more than just competent when it come to the different aspects of electrical work, be it controls, hi voltage, or just plain old "wiring". I spent 5 years in a apprenticeship where i learned as much as I could so that i wouldn't be just "another worker" . When shit goes wrong,  I get the call because I know what the fuck I am doing. How many times have I gone on a service call to fix other peoples fuck up. Ka-billions( thats alot to you ).  Do I deserve the wage I get. FUCK YEA. Im good at what I fucking do. DO I get good bene's? You damn right I do. Because I fucking deserve it.

Maybe if McDonalds started a union you would get more than minimum wage and not be jealous, but as for me I DESERVE my wage. And I get it.


-Machine
IBEW LOCAL #3

Quoted: Quoted: The funny part of your post is your last paragraph, because someone will do the same thing to you, and the company you work for will be more then happy to pay them half of what you make also. It's called capitalism. The point as far as this discussion goes is that I AM the other (non union) guy. If I was union I'm sure I'd get paid $60 an hour do sit on my ass but instead I get paid less than $20 per hour to actually WORK. The company I'm with is pretty small but we've grown well every year for 10 years and I like that I had a big part in that. I'm not overpaid at all (a little underpaid for what I do to be honest) but I work for a good boss & I feel a lot of loyalty to him & the company that I helped grow. Thats a little different job description than Jrzy gives huh?

Even you, as a non union worker thinks you are underpaid. Truth is, everyone from the CEO down to the floorsweeper thinks they are undepaid.  Union or not.

Quoted: So because you become a union member, that means that you automatically sit on your ass,  get paid more and do nothing?

Not at all, I respect the union guys that work hard... they cover for the guys sitting around talking.

Quoted: Everything around you that you are seeing right now was moved in some fashion by guys you're bad mouthing, guys getting paid a decent living wage. Guys advancing their childrens education so they can go into a profession so they don't have to work on the docks in sweltering heat and subzero temps. One way or the other that freight gets to you no matter how hot or how cold or who was crushed by falling freight. By the way, you're welcome.

Sorry, plenty of non union guys go to go to work, rain or shine & produce whatever it is they produce (without the massive pay increase & strikes).


You're welcome.

The union I am most familiar with fucks its members out of a LOT of money. Too much bureaucracy.

Quoted: I.B.E.W.  Local Union #3 Electrician Thats my title and i am FUCKING PROUD of it. I  bust my ass at work just like everyone else. I'm more than just competent when it come to the different aspects of electrical work, be it controls, hi voltage, or just plain old "wiring". I spent 5 years in a apprenticeship where i learned as much as I could so that i wouldn't be just "another worker" . When shit goes wrong,  I get the call because I know what the fuck I am doing. How many times have I gone on a service call to fix other peoples fuck up. Ka-billions( thats alot to you ).  Do I deserve the wage I get. FUCK YEA. Im good at what I fucking do. DO I get good bene's? You damn right I do. Because I fucking deserve it. Maybe if McDonalds started a union you would get more than minimum wage and not be jealous, but as for me I DESERVE my wage. And I get it. -Machine IBEW LOCAL #3

He he he.....

Dude..You have no idea how replaceable you are.    

my sister company replaces your type regularly.

you think a bunch more of your skills than is realistic.

Heh...Monkey on a wire.

Just as replaceable than the next guy.


If you think you're not....You're a nut.

The GM plant in OKC, OK is closing because of what the union demanded of GM several years ago.  Even though the plant was consistently rated one as one of the highest of GM plants, the union refused to allow any more "outsourcing" of assembly to local non-union vendors and demanded more money and benefits.

GM caved in to their demands to keep the plant running as they were making SUV's and making a lot of money on each one.  Now that the worm has turned, OKC was the first plant closed on the Monday before Thanksgiving they simply announced it on the radio.  GM is closing several plants, but it is also tripling its production in India.

There is nothing wrong with Unions, just the people who run them.  What kind of a worker's organization demands so much of its member's employer that the employer just shuts the plant and moves the jobs overseas?

For many years all of the telephone, gas and electric companies did their own installations of service lines, etc.  Now every single one of them in my state subs out all, or part, of this work to small, non-union contractors.  They didn't argue with the union, they just stopped doing the work in house so the workers weren't needed any longer.  

Union employees are well trained, but that doesn't mean that non-union employees can't be equally well trained.  I could care less if you have a card in your wallet, or not,  but if you can't do the work you shouldn't be able to keep your job just because you have a union card.  That isn't job security, it is stupidity.

The best thing to happen in this regard in OK in the past decade was the "right to work" legislation that was passed.  New businesses in Missourri and other states are now shutting down and moving to Oklahoma to take advantage of the non-union climate this law has created.

Quoted: Quoted: So because you become a union member, that means that you automatically sit on your ass,  get paid more and do nothing? Not at all, I respect the union guys that work hard... they cover for the guys sitting around talking.

Boy oh boy.  

Honestly, the best post of the thread was just made right there.

Seriously.

The guys working hard, though, will soon be censured.  

They're working too hard.

Ahh this is hard not to get my two cents in,sorry

Yes Unions are evil in some ways closing the market and holding people back from working for nothing basically.

Yes they have stupid rules about job allocation and what each trade is "allowed" to do.

On the other hand there is a bigger picture.

Obviously you can't see that it was the unions that brought decent safe working conditions for the average Joe way back when.
Industry jobs and such were very unsafe and hazardous.

Called Working conditions.People died of cancer, tubuclosis and accidents, The workers said enough organized and came forward!
Back then there was a reason and it worked.

If you go to Wal Mart or Save mart they say "made in the USA" but then read the tag it's like assembled in mexico (by some children working for 50 cents and hour without anything no benifits no saftey rules no Osha.

So maybe we should start by getting get rid of OSHA too.
They suck and are monoplolistic and tyranic too.

While were at it let's get rid of the last 75 years of labor laws protecting basic workers that were a result of the Unions.

Maybe we can start our kids working at a factory now since there's no labor laws and saftey any more (we got rid of the labor laws and the OSHA people) and see how it is.Sorry don't want my daughter working for slave wages.

Sorry If I sound a little proturbed because yes it all seems one way but there is other way to look at it so this is what I am going off about.

I work darn hard for my money and the company still makes a decent profit off of us. Yes the POOr company. Here's an example....

Carlisle Group (GW's friends) bought CSX lines Shipping company a while back.

Within a year they broke up the company and sold it for a record $3billion dollar profit. (maybe more)
I am sure that my wages did not cause them to loose any money okay! there

Worked over 27 years as a mechanic and other trades.I have had my own business and worked for myself as well.

We work very hard and earn our wages okay.

We don't sit around and twittle our thumbs, going to the golf course to decide which company to screw.

 If I had just stayed at the same dead end job that I was in back then (non union) and been a good boy following the corporation or the business owner around.... probably would'nt have enough money to buy this computer,house or car in the driveway.

Oh and by the way the money that I spend creates more jobs for other people too! duh Everytime that I go shopping here in my little town I transfer the income to another company (Union or non union)so that they can make the payroll that week.

Yes the corporate America thanks us, just like NAFTA now Jose can get a good job here working for $100 a week assembling something and working at 7 eleven because no one else will.

On a closing note, no one said anything when Halburton 's sister company and the government worked out a deal to repeal the federal wages for the rebuiling of New Orleans...
Ahh I forgot the corporations are hurting really bad,no need pay those carpenters more than $12 an hour for rebuilding the city right?

Dance: I probably agree with most of what you posted. Having said that, this is one of the lousiest troll posts I've ever seen. Put some thought into it next time.

In public schools that have tried to only encourage students with positive reinforcement, they have created students that have a perception that they do well in math, yet fail miserably in actual practice.  This is much of what happens in some unions.  They teach you that you have received extensive training above and beyond the average Joe, so you are worth lots of bucks.  When the reality is that you become unable to recognize your failure and worth compared to the bell curve.   If you are doing grunt work, it does not matter that it took you 4 years to learn it.  If your same job can be taught to someone in 4 weeks, then you need to re-evaluate your worth.  If it can be taught in 4 hours and your are proud of your skills, then you need to kill yourself.

I have worked union, my Dad worked union, my Grand Father worked union.  Some trades/skills are worth every dollar, others are far overpaid.  

"I am the MAN! I am a union man!!"

lol


This thread is everything the OP had in mind, I am sure.

Quoted: Unions have done nothing more than force them to share some of that wealth with the people who make the wealth for that company and to give the employee a voice when being confronted with the corporate mentality that the employee is an insignificant element who is easily replaced when no longer useful.

Seems to me if an employee wants some company wealth and a "voice" in how the comapny should be run, they should start their OWN company.

As far as replacing employees, if they aren't USEFUL why should I employ them? Aren't I paying them to be useful? Do I OWE them a job?

It seems this thread is the right place to come, lemme explain. I own a textile company and i hire mostly Irish illegals for 10 cents an hour. Now they are talking strikes and unions and all the Communist crap! I cant afford this, not when the Cuban cigars i got from Canada went up to $5000 apeice! There is also talk of some Molly Maguires showing up. There are only so many police i can bribe, so, I'm hear to offer anyone who wants it a job. Not textiles but breaking strikes and heads. Stupid Irish! It's not like they are real people anyway! Papists! Sure i can only pay you 5 cents but hey it's not like you gotta a choice now is it? Wanna feed your kid? Bats and bricks provided, no Chinese need apply. If not i might have to move my factory to Mexico or China! They know how to treat their workers! Help me save America!.....................................

I couldn't have said it better!

Quoted: There is no use for unions in a true capitalistic system.  They might have had a role when laws on labor were not yet around, but no more. Ditch the union system.  Closed shop crap is BS.  You get 6.00 an hour if thats what you are worth.  Otherwise you are artifically inflating your wages, driving up the costs of goods and inticing your company to outsource to mexico.  Want more money?  Get a skill to earn more.  No one has a *right* to a good wage.  You must EARN it!

Quoted: Quoted: I don't know much about unions.  I deal with the longshoremen on a regular basis, they are the laziest pieces of shit I have ever seen.  They make tons of money and don't do a damn thing.  They work half shifts and get paid the full time.  They have rediculous coffe and lunch breaks, which are all paid.  They can stand around and do nothing and never get fired for it.  I have talked with one of the head honchos over at one of the piers in Long beach, and he told me if he tells them to work faster or whatever, they tell him to go F himself and go home.....and they still get paid for the whole day and when they come back tommorow it is as if nothing happened.  Unions breed incompetence, you can't fire or discipline workers, they don't have to be efficient.  Worst of all, they treat my drivers like shit, they go to lunch an hour early, all at the same time, leaving my drivers there to wait until they decide to come back.  It would be like shopping at wal-mart and having all the cashiers go to lunch at the same time and leaving all the customers to wait around until they come back.  Once agin, my experience is limited to the Longshoremen, I don't know what other unions are like.   Look up the word paragraph and please use it. Are you in a position of some kind of authority?

Great example of why people like me hate the union. I don't really care about how much money they make. The prices of the things we purchase will go up to equalize the wage rates. It's the smartass attitudes they have. It's the things mentioned above that are the absolute worst!

I'm salary and I work at least 11-12 hours per day. Not because I have to but because I want to. I want the company I work for to be profitable so that they will keep all of us working and I can continue to feed my family. If I need to do something out of my job description I don't mind at all!

I had a union person telling me about a bus driver at a refinery. He wasn't ALLOWED to sweep his bus. He had to get a laborer to do it. THAT IS CRAZY!

Quoted: Seems to me if an employee wants some company wealth and a "voice" in how the company should be run, they should start their OWN company. As far as replacing employees, if they aren't USEFUL why should I employ them? Aren't I paying them to be useful? Do I OWE them a job?

Why should the only person ( in your mind apparently )with any say in anything relating to how a company should be run be the person at the very top? And unless its a brand new company, that person at the top most likely didn't start that company, did they?

As for replacing employees, I was thinking of the effects on a town when a factory shuts down and hundreds of people are thrown out of work because the company was recently bought up and all the parent company wants to do is move the production to some third world cesspool to save money. Thats not thinking about the human costs associated with closing down the original factory.

You better believe thata  company thats employed someone for 20 or 30 years owes them something.

Cant argue with that!

Quoted: Why should the only person ( in your mind apparently )with any say in anything relating to how a company should be run be the person at the very top? And unless its a brand new company, that person at the top most likely didn't start that company, did they?

Because the person at the top is the only one who usually has all of the information available to make decisions that can make sure the company is profitable. (and often their ass is on the line not some guy on the factory floor) If you were a part of the corporate management structure, the first thing you would learn is, "the higher you go.....the less job security you have"
You don't honestly believe a company should be run by commitee do you?

As for replacing employees, I was thinking of the effects on a town when a factory shuts down and hundreds of people are thrown out of work because the company was recently bought up and all the parent company wants to do is move the production to some third world cesspool to save money. Thats not thinking about the human costs associated with closing down the original factory.

If a company was recently bought........don't the new owners, you know the people who PAID THEIR MONEY, have a right to do whatever the fuck they want to do with their property. Oh, I know....how about you buy a car and because the guys that built the car, or sold the car, think they can still drive it whenever they want because they have been building them, or selling them, for 20 years. This is what you are saying. Sounds silly as hell from that perspective, huh? Well some people own cars and companies and feel they can do what they want with their property.

You better believe thata  company thats employed someone for 20 or 30 years owes them something.

Damned right they do. They owe what they promised......which is a paycheck that doesn't bounce.

What you are describing doesn't fit the universally accepted tradition and definition of "The American Dream".

Just out of curiosity....how old are you and how many jobs have you had?

Quoted: [You don't honestly believe a company should be run by commitee do you?

Depends on the company. Some smaller businesses run that way. Hard to do as the company grows in size, though.

If a company was recently bought........don't the new owners, you know the people who PAID THEIR MONEY, have a right to do whatever the fuck they want to do with their property.

They should have the welfare of the people working in that company in mind, and the costs  to those employees with the outcome of their business decisions

You better believe thata  company thats employed someone for 20 or 30 years owes them something.

Damned right they do. They owe what they promised......which is a paycheck that doesn't bounce.

I think they owe them more than that.

What you are describing doesn't fit the universally accepted tradition and definition of "The American Dream".

The dream is pretty much that for many mnay people...just a dream.

Just out of curiosity....how old are you and how many jobs have you had?

Jobs...lets see..guess you don't want me to go back to 8 or 9 and walking blocks and blocks of houses for snow shovelling money. Otherwise, we'll count my "working"  as working for other people at a tax-paying job, which started at 14 or 15, and have been working ever since. I am 43 and am currently working 3 jobs or 4, depending on how you count jobs.....

Quoted: Jobs...lets see..guess you don't want me to go back to 8 or 9 and walking blocks and blocks of houses for snow shovelling money. Otherwise, we'll count my "working"  as working for other people at a tax-paying job, which started at 14 or 15, and have been working ever since. I am 43 and am currently working 3 jobs or 4, depending on how you count jobs.....

LOL....I guess I would count the paychecks then.

We are not going to agree on this......we are from different backgrounds and as you posted that you believe for many people the American dream is only a dream......I live it EVERY day.

I will never believe the dream is dead, if I can acheive it anyone can..........but unlike a union job, it takes years of sacrifice and labor and sweat and there will be no one promising you shit. you get what you earn.

This country is FULL of opportunities, and if you quit feeling like someone owes you something and begin to take advantage of the things around you that dream might take off for you.

On this YM won't V

Like many many things
Unions were needed and had a noble purpose ( fighting exploitation , dangerous work places , etc)
However like most things it got fat lazy and corruption unions are not bad fundamentally  but they protect the crap employees and in doing so cause the good ones to turn to crap as  they only work hard enough not to get fired which is next to impossible anyway , why bust your ass when the other guys sit on theirs especially if there is no incentive to work and  advance  as the shit balls get all the raises too

The areas where Unions are strongest are becoming DEPOPULATED (i.e. the entire northeast). I geuss people are getting tired of socialism from their politicians and in their workplace.

I think Unions served a purpose in the past, but the time has come and gone.  Locally, one of the public schools is having problems with the teachers union.  The teachers and the school board can not come to an agreement on a contract.  So what do the teachers do, go on strike.  In the middle of a school year!!!  So the kids are not in school learning anything, the parents of the kids have to take their vacation and sick days to stay home with the kids, or pay extra for daycare or sitters, and all the while the teachers are still getting paid.  The reason for the dispute is that the teachers do not want to co-pay for their medical benefits.   These teachers are already some of the highest paid teachers in the state and they are too cheap and greedy to co-pay for the medical benefits.  Granted the teachers have an important job teaching the kids, but come on, why go on strike in the middle of the school year.  It is basic extortion.  The teachers want something and if they do not get it, then they are going to make the parents and kids pay, not only with higher taxes, but with time and money spent to take care of the kids when they should be in school.

This is the kind of thing that turned me against Unions.  It is not bargaining of any kind, it is outright greed.  None of these teachers work in a hostile, dangerous environment.  They do not have outsourcing to worry about.  They work 180 days of the year and get a full years wage for doing so.  They all have roofs over their heads, drive decent functional automobiles, get paid vacation and sick time, plus paid snow days.  So what is to bitch about?  Why not be happy with what they have?  

This kind of thing just pisses me off.  Each and every one of us should be grateful that we live in a country where we can actually go to work and earn a decent wage to support ourselves and our families.  The arrogance of some people that think working is a "right" and that they should be paid what they feel they need to be paid, rather than what the market allows them to be paid is disgusting.

Does the guy putting a windshield in a car really need to make $50+ dollars and hour?  Why do you think the cost of a new car is so insane?

How about the telephone guy, does he really need to make $50+ an hour putting telephone service into a house?  No wonder people are getting rid of their home phone lines?

In the industry I work in, I deal with Union workers on a daily basis.  Most are hard working guys that really do give a shit about their work.  But these same guys are limited by some of the stupidest rules known to man.  Our company pays out the ass to a certain telephone company each month.  When we have a problem and call on this company to fix the problem, we get all kind of excuses why the problem can't be fixed quickly.  From the weather is too bad, or that will have to wait until morning because the trouble is in a bad part of town.  We waste millions of dollars each year due to laziness and job duty separation.  Guy "A" can't do X because that is not in his job description, Guy "B" can only do that.  I can't count the number of times I have told the union guys to go get some coffee, while they are gone, I fix what needs fixing, and when they come back, I act like nothing happened.  Guy "A" is happy because he can now go home, Guy "B" is happy because he didn't have to get out of bed to fix anything, and I am happy because the problem is now fixed and I save the company a couple thousand dollars.

I say all this not out of jealousy, but out of frustration.  I get paid a good salary, great benefits and I work for a company that actually cares about me and my welfare.  All the people here bust their asses to make this company great.  These people do this because they love working here.  Personally I am very happy being non union and I always will be.

Not all but a lot of unions are nothing but overpaid workers who feel entitled to everything from the company for doing less than everything for the company.

One last thing, look at how the Unions destroyed the steel industry in this country.  By our steel workers wanting more for doing less, the Japanese were able to cut the legs out from under our steel industry.  It wasn't the Japanese fault but our own.  

Quoted: Quoted: .........New company couldn't handle the fact that the employees had a say so in the matter ( like it should be ) so they closed up shop. I my case the UNION would not allow the company to FUCK US OVER like some other places of employment would. If I worked 1 min. over my schedual my ass got overtime ( like it should be ) ............Now understand that not just any loe dick could walk in off the street and get a job with us. You had to earn your spot on the ladder. There were no free rides we just got what we deserved for hard work. Real Pay, Earned time off, Real Vacation, Medical, Retirement. If you have never worked for a UNION well then STFU. I am not currently UNION but atleast I understand how it works. You want to work for that company, then you accept their terms.  That means what they are willing to pay; don't likeit?  Find another job, or find a new skill set.  No one has the right to work where they *want* to in this country. How about describing your job and the skills needed so we can decide if you do have a position to argue that you "got what you deserved." A lot of shit jobs are hard work.  Just because you "worked hard" doesn't entitle you to a large wage.  If you are not productive then you shouldn't be getting a lot of money. This is capitalism, don't like the company don't work there.  Why exactly are you against letting people who don't want to be in a union work there?  Afraid they will take away your job?  How is that fair to them?  Maybe they are willing to the job for less.  That is THEIR RIGHT. Explain you job, and skills required and we can discuss if it is fair or not.

PRE-PRESS/PRESSROOM
If our Press broke down we stayed until it was fixed and the paper was printed.(Not Normal In a Large Facility) Longest shift I worked was 36hrs straight. With appropriate breaks of course. Watched alot of PANSIES come and go because they couldn't think on their feet. Best way to describe it I guess would be it was like working between the wheels of a running locomotive. Ever seen an ink roller fly apart at 80,000pph?? I have and got paid good money (BECAUSE OF A UNION) for it. I am not saying that a UNION does not have the potential to be bad, there are certain circumstances where it can be harmful to a company, If the employees take advantage of it and they do. Does a paint brush factory need a UNION probably not because the typical type of person who would work that type of job is probably a dead head pot smoker who has no potential.

Quoted: PRE-PRESS/PRESSROOM If our Press broke down we stayed until it was fixed and the paper was printed.(Not Normal In a Large Facility) Longest shift I worked was 36hrs straight. With appropriate breaks of course. Watched alot of PANSIES come and go because they couldn't think on their feet. Best way to describe it I guess would be it was like working between the wheels of a running locomotive. Ever seen an ink roller fly apart at 80,000pph?? I have and got paid good money (BECAUSE OF A UNION) for it. I am not saying that a UNION does not have the potential to be bad, there are certain circumstances where it can be harmful to a company, If the employees take advantage of it and they do. Does a paint brush factory need a UNION probably not because the typical type of person who would work that type of job is probably a dead head pot smoker who has no potential.

I work in graphic design & prepress & I've worked with lots of union and non union pressmen. I've met several good union pressmen but to generalize them... the union guys are very proficient & get the jobs off the press at the proper speed... nothing to complain about. Non union guys are either idiots (last about 3 days) or are freaking artists on a press. They don't just do the job till quitting time, they become part of the team by suggesting improvements to the workflow (often things that are not union approved) and learning their job far beyond simple efficiency. Thats how they keep their jobs, most bosses know a good pressman when they see them & will try to keep them.

Another thing I find in union pressmen is the "it's not my job" syndrome, need them to do some stripping (in a printing sense.... don't get freaky) "thats for the prepress guys". Non union guys don't tend to have that issue.