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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:07:59 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Question: when is union membership truly voluntary? Come to a FREE State like Arizona and find out. Freedom... what a concept! Okay... let me finish. AZ is a "right to work" state which means we have unions but no one is forced to join them. The Unions have collective bargaining agreements that ALL employees are FREE to work under regardless of whether they pay dues. No one can be blocked from being hired if they aren't in a union. No one can be fired if they don't belong to a union. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:10:52 AM EDT
[#2]
Gosh, I can feel the love.
I really enjoyed this. IAFF Local 55. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:12:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Quoted: Hey boomer fuck you and your troll shit !! I was not refering to aviators post but rather to YOURS !! I replied to YOUR use of the term "scab" when refering to union workers. Why don't YOU go read what I posted again. Troll. WOW WHAT A RESPONSE !!!!!! Lets see, instead of admitting your wrong or you fucked up, just call someone a troll. Saint holier than thou boomer speaks....... |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:13:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Go read the thread in question, you troll. Aviator didn't need or just want to work. He willfully interfered with another man's labor negatiations. And because he helped perpetuate an employment dispute in which he has no long term standing, he made have made the situation for the veterans even worse in the long run by helping to propogate bitterness, ire, and apathy in the employees who continue to work there. How do YOU treat fellow gun owners who disagree with YOU? Like the guy who only cares about being able to own his fancy shotgun but thinks AR-15s are dangerous? Because you disagree with him and may even have enough backbone to voice so and maybe even not associate with him, are YOU a thug, too? Geez, you get your knickers in a twist simply because some of us don't share your views regarding the politics of certain gun manufacturers. Thug. Actually, the STATE UNION workers walked away and left the Veterans in the Vets home without care. They dicided they needed more money. The state called up the Guard and we went in and cared for the guys in the State Veterans Home. At that point I could have gave a shit less about how much the people that walked out on the poor old bastars in the Vet home made. I was glad and proud to be able to help them. Call me what you want, but it does not hurt my feelings any. Am proud to have helped those that fought for our freedoms. By the way, the people we cared for told the newspapers that they were receiving much better care from the Guardsmen than the full time "State union workers". |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:16:06 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: capitalism for all it's virtues, does reward greed. Nothing wrong with Greed. I'm Greedy. Greed is the reason I get up in the morning. Greed is what makes me better myself. The extra money I earn by being Greedy allows me to buy many of the fine weapons out there and all the ammo to go with it. Greed allows me to eat out at all those nice expensive restaurants like to go to. Greed allows me to purchase a new Chevy 4x4 every 3 years. Greed is the reason I live in the big oppulent house I live in. Seeing a pattern here? Nobody going to restrict the amount of money I earn or tell me I'm making more than my fair share. I'm not a socialist contributing to a collective. So do you believe that keeping another man down or cheating him is acceptable in your pursuit of material wealth? For God's sake, look at what brought about organized labor in the first place. The dark side of true capitalism. Last time I checked, I wasn't a socialist contributing to a collective, either. I'm in this game for myself,family and friends. I don't care about if other people can make it or not. I'm not responsible for how much others make. If they want more out of thier life they can get educated and expend the necessary effort I have and amass the wealth I have. Nobody ever gave anything to me or cut me any more slack than anyone else. Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. Its an unfortunate part of life, but I will never apologize for what wealth I have amassed. I work hard for what I get. Boomer, You sir sound more and more like a bleeding heart liberal with every post. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:19:07 AM EDT
[#6]
I, too, agree that union membership should be voluntary.
If an employee is that disillusioned with or set against union membership and wants no part of it, that's fine with me. Non-union employees should not be extended the same wage scale or negotiated benefits as union employees, however, which all too often is what happens. They whine and bitch about the union yet ride it's coat tails for free. They should have to negotiate individually for their wage and benefit packages, take whatever scraps they are offered, and be happy with it. As far as union membership not being compulsory in right-to-work states, I'd have to look into that one a bit more. As it stands, that must not be entirely correct or there is some sort of exemption for railroads or other multi-state employers as I'm pretty sure that fellow rails even in Arizona must belong to a union as a condition of employment. Also, you don't have to pay full union dues if you choose not to. You can file to just pay the portion that covers the cost of contract negotiations. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:23:40 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: I'm pretty sure that fellow rails even in Arizona must belong to a union as a condition of employment. This says it all, join us or you don't get the job. How American can you get [rolleyes] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:24:24 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: At one time unions had a place in the US. Now I don't think they are necessary with things such as OSHA to regulate working conditions. Please don't tell us you actually said that with a straight face. If so, I would have to conclude that you are utterly ignorant about workplace safety issues. So do you mean to tell me that OSHA doesn't regulate workplace safety? I guess that poster in my break area must be made up. It says any employee can anonymously report any suspected dangerous or unhealthy conditions. Osha then has to inspect the reported concerns. FWIW every place I have ever worked was scared to death of OSHA, and keeping in compliance with regs. I guess that must be because they never enforce anything. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:24:48 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. Its an unfortunate part of life, but I will never apologize for what wealth I have amassed. I work hard for what I get. Awww, gee whiz, but me and some co-workers get together and step on you by threatening to withhold our labor and jeapordize your business and and ability earn that fortune and looky what happen, you get all pissy about it. It's a two way street, pal. You don't care about me, I don't care about you. Take your freaking fortune (assuming you aren't some putz putting on a grand show here) and be happy with it. I work hard for what I've got, too. Come on down to the railroad if you'd like proof of that. You'd probably wilt like a lilly trying to keep the hours we do. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:26:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Lets see, instead of admitting your wrong or you fucked up, just call someone a troll. No, I called a spade a spade. Try going back and comprehending the context in which I called Aviator a scab. Troll. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:28:23 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: So do you mean to tell me that OSHA doesnt regulate workplace safety? I guess that poster in my break area must be made up. It says any employee can anonamousely report any suspected dangerous or unhealthy conditions. Osha then has to inspect the reported concerns. FWIW every place I have ever worked was scared to death of OSHA, and keeping in compliance with regs. I guess that must be because they never enforce anything. OSHA often takes quite a bit of prodding, if not a serious accident, to actually come out and investigate workplace safety. The FRA, which governs railroad safety, is even worse. I've seen it all first hand. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:31:24 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Actually, the STATE UNION workers walked away and left the Veterans in the Vets home without care. They dicided they needed more money. The state called up the Guard and we went in and cared for the guys in the State Veterans Home. At that point I could have gave a shit less about how much the people that walked out on the poor old bastars in the Vet home made. I was glad and proud to be able to help them. Call me what you want, but it does not hurt my feelings any. Am proud to have helped those that fought for our freedoms. By the way, the people we cared for told the newspapers that they were receiving much better care from the Guardsmen than the full time "State union workers". So where are you now? Still helping those veterans you supposedly care so much about? Scab. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:34:42 AM EDT
[#13]
Does anybody know what a regional airline pilot can expect for starting pay?? Try about $16K...that is per year, not per month folks. Consider that this poor sucker has put tens of thousands of dollars into his education, on top of a 4 year degree.
In my job, you do not get a comparative wage based on how well you land the airplane. Basically, you either get the plane there, or you don't. The system has a harsh way of weeding out the weak. So, to keep the airlines from hiring and replacing the 20-year pilots with tons of experience, with pilots with a fresh commercial ticket, the union becomes a necessary evil. If you think the airline would never consider getting rid of experienced people to save a few bucks in wages, you don't know the history of this business. -Anarki |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:34:44 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: This says it all, join us or you don't get the job. How American can you get. Perhaps I should have clarified that I was talking about Class I railroads. You can always go to work for a shortline railroad and be happy to earn half what a Class I railroad employee does. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:35:52 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: No, I called a spade a spade. Try going back and comprehending the context in which I called Aviator a scab. Troll. Look Boomer, Although I would like to shoot a few names your way I will not. If you want to twist some companies arms for more money by causing them [b]financial[/b] loss that's fine with me. That's your right. When a union just walks off and leaves disabled vets to fend for themselves that's just [b]criminal[/b]. You work a job like that, and you have certain [b]Obligations[/b] I belive. Me leaving those people thereto suffer would cause my conscience to bother me, your calling me a scab does not. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:38:21 AM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Does anybody know what a regional airline pilot can expect for starting pay?? Try about $16K...that is per year, not per month folks. Consider that this poor sucker has put tens of thousands of dollars into his education, on top of a 4 year degree. In my job, you do not get a comparative wage based on how well you land the airplane. Basically, you either get the plane there, or you don't. The system has a harsh way of weeding out the weak. So, to keep the airlines from hiring and replacing the 20-year pilots with tons of experience, with pilots with a fresh commercial ticket, the union becomes a necessary evil. If you think the airline would never consider getting rid of experienced people to save a few bucks in wages, you don't know the history of this business. -Anarki Oh boy, I can hardly wait for Aviator's response to this. [:)] By the way, a friend mine is flying a twin engine cargo plane in Alaska. Started a couple of years ago. Maybe it's just because of the hazards of flying in Alaska, bu he's doing quite a bit better than $16K per year. His goal is to evetually build up enough hours to get on with a regional like Horizon Air. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:38:33 AM EDT
[#17]
I wonder how many union workers have lost their jobs since NAFTA? I would imagine quite a few.
Unions will either die due to competition or become globalized as markets globalize. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:42:47 AM EDT
[#18]
Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. What does "stepping on" entail? Is it just being a tough competitor or does it mean things like fraudulent business practices? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:44:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: I wonder how many union workers have lost their jobs since NAFTA? I would imagine quite a few. Conversely, do you wonder how many non-union workers have lost their jobs as a result of NAFTA. I would imagine quite a few as well. It'll be interesting to hear the tune sung as more and more white collar type jobs are being exported as well. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:46:48 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. Its an unfortunate part of life, but I will never apologize for what wealth I have amassed. I work hard for what I get. Awww, gee whiz, but me and some co-workers get together and step on you by threatening to withhold our labor and jeapordize your business and and ability earn that fortune and looky what happen, you get all pissy about it. It's a two way street, pal. You don't care about me, I don't care about you. Take your freaking fortune (assuming you aren't some putz putting on a grand show here) and be happy with it. I work hard for what I've got, too. Come on down to the railroad if you'd like proof of that. You'd probably wilt like a lilly trying to keep the hours we do. Listen here Boomer the troll, I busted my ass to build up a company. I'm never going to allow a union into my company. No union is gonna tell me what I have to pay my workers. I started the company. I make the rules. If you don't like it get a job somewhere else. I'm not forcing anybody to stay. I worked hard getting the company off the ground. I don't have to work long hours now. I don't work for my money now. My money works for me. Why would I want to work everyday out in the heat and the cold if I don't have to? I'm not putting on a grand show. I decided to stay home today and I just may stay home tomorrow and the next day. Have fun slaving in the train yard |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 10:48:58 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. What does "stepping on" entail? Is it just being a tough competitor or does it mean things like fraudulent business practices? In my case its tough competition. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:02:54 AM EDT
[#22]
Looks like some folks are getting a little hot under the collar. No real need for that, IMHO.
I'll use the fire extinguisher if I see too many more flames. [:D] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:08:09 AM EDT
[#23]
Oh man, unions!
Here's my story: Our company is relocating my department back east. Salaried company employees are going to be reimbursed 100% on moving expenses and will lose no wages during transition and will have paid transportation back there and also will lose no vacation time and will fly back to look around for a week on company dime (rent-a-car, hotel) Union rolled over on negotiating a moving allowance for hourly employees. We get $5000 moving allowance, no more. We have to cash in our left over vacation time so we have to wait till 01/01/03 to have vacation again. No plane flight to look at area unless it's on your vacation time and your expense. No pay during actual moving period of 5 days. We are bridging over to new/different Local so we lose seniority in terms of vacation time. If we had 10 years service and 3 weeks of vacation time we now start again with only two weeks for about three years until we gain back that extra week. The worst is eating the moving expenses, estimates by movers indicate an average move for 3bdr. house more like $8000 or so, not to mention transportaion and shipping autos. Unions suck. The company would rather pick what employees should go and give them an adequate move package but Union is in the way. Therefore it's the lowest common denominator that determines the outcome for all. Also, our wages take a hit, we lose about 15 percent. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:10:20 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Does anybody know what a regional airline pilot can expect for starting pay?? Try about $16K...that is per year, not per month folks. Consider that this poor sucker has put tens of thousands of dollars into his education, on top of a 4 year degree. In my job, you do not get a comparative wage based on how well you land the airplane. Basically, you either get the plane there, or you don't. The system has a harsh way of weeding out the weak. So, to keep the airlines from hiring and replacing the 20-year pilots with tons of experience, with pilots with a fresh commercial ticket, the union becomes a necessary evil. If you think the airline would never consider getting rid of experienced people to save a few bucks in wages, you don't know the history of this business. -Anarki Oh boy, I can hardly wait for Aviator's response to this. [:)] By the way, a friend mine is flying a twin engine cargo plane in Alaska. Started a couple of years ago. Maybe it's just because of the hazards of flying in Alaska, bu he's doing quite a bit better than $16K per year. His goal is to evetually build up enough hours to get on with a regional like Horizon Air. 16k to 43k is about right for commuters. the reason is that they have MINIMAL hours. You are working for very little to build hours. All you are doing is making your bones untill you have the hours to fly the big iron or as a corperate pilot. Nothing wrong with that in my book. As in any business, you get paid what your experiance is worth. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:10:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Unfettered Capitalism? You see that as a problem? Capitalism works best when it's left the hell alone, not regulated or messed with. Unfortunately, history is replete with examples of exactly the opposite. Carnegie. Steel. Rockefeller. Standard Oil. J. P. Piermont. Railroads. Bill Gates. Microsoft. Ken Lay. Enron. Boomer, you need to get your facts and history straight if you are going to publicly make statements: Carnegie-Sold his business; this is what became U. S. Steel. Gave virtually all of his millions away to the public----ever been to Carnegie Hall, heard of a Carnegie funded Library or a Carnegie Fellowship? Probably not. Rockefeller- Standard Oil Trus was broken up by Decree of the Supreme Court in 1913. J. P. Piermont. No, you're not even close on this one. Try J. P. (P as in Pierpont) Morgan. Morgan, in addition, wasn't in railroads---Vanderbilt was----Morgan was in finance----ever hear of J. P. Morgan Bank or Morgan-Stanley and Company? Gates-Well, the U. S. government's anti-trust case agaist Microsoft still isn't completely settled. How did Gates ever abuse workers(?)---by making thousands of them millionaires? Ken Lay and Enron-I'd say that Capitalism worked just fine. Enron is basically out of business, the Company is bankrupt, the stock worthless and he, as well as the Enron Directors, Skilling, the CFO, etc. are all being investigated for corruption and fraud. Certainly doesn't sound to me as though Capitalism failed! |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:12:42 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: I'm never going to allow a union into my company. No union is gonna tell me what I have to pay my workers. I started the company. I make the rules. If you don't like it get a job somewhere else. I'm not forcing anybody to stay. I worked hard getting the company off the ground. I don't have to work long hours now. I don't work for my money now. My money works for me. If you step on your employees too much in your quest for wealth, you only two options may eventually be to accept a union in your company or close up shop altogether, move, and find some new employees to abuse. Properly managed companies don't often have to deal with unions. Be fair to your employees and take care of them and they'll do the same in return. It's when owner/manager greed loses sight of that basic golden rule that unions gain a foothold. Sounds like you might be a decent guy to work for if your employees have no reason to organize against you. Get it yet? Why would I want to work everyday out in the heat and the cold if I don't have to? I'm not putting on a grand show. Well, if you were me, it would because you appreiate and enjoy the outdoors and can't stand being cooped up in a stuffy office. I decided to stay home today and I just may stay home tomorrow and the next day. Must really enjoy that job of yours, huh? [:)] Have fun slaving in the train yard I wouldn't exactly call it "slaving". I'm pretty well compensated, too. Thanks for the concern, though. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:22:50 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Boomer, you need to get your facts and history straight if you are going to publicly make statements: Carnegie-Sold his business; this is what became U. S. Steel. Gave virtually all of his millions away to the public----ever been to Carnegie Hall, heard of a Carnegie funded Library or a Carnegie Fellowship? Probably not. Rockefeller- Standard Oil Trus was broken up by Decree of the Supreme Court in 1913. J. P. Piermont. No, you're not even close on this one. Try J. P. (P as in Pierpont) Morgan. Morgan, in addition, wasn't in railroads---Vanderbilt was----Morgan was in finance----ever hear of J. P. Morgan Bank or Morgan-Stanley and Company? Gates-Well, the U. S. government's anti-trust case agaist Microsoft still isn't completely settled. How did Gates ever abuse workers(?)---by making thousands of them millionaires? Ken Lay and Enron-I'd say that Capitalism worked just fine. Enron is basically out of business, the Company is bankrupt, the stock worthless and he, as well as the Enron Directors, Skilling, the CFO, etc. are all being investigated for corruption and fraud. Certainly doesn't sound to me as though Capitalism failed! Okay, you got me on John Pierpont Morgan, although as financier he did own significant interests in railroads. Better check your own facts. [url=http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmorgan.htm]John Pierpont Morgan [/url] [i] Morgan had good links with the London financial world and was able to arrange the capital for growing industrial corporations in the United States with money from British bankers. This enabled Morgan to become a member of the board of directors in several of these companies including most of the major railroad companies. By 1902 Morgan controlled over 5,000 miles (8,000 km) of American railroads [/i] As for the rest of your response, do I detect a hint of agreeance that the only way these true capitalists were restrained and prevented from further monopolizing and manipulating our economy was through regulation? Oh my God! The very thought of it! Now what was your point again? Did you erroneously believe I was suggesting that capitalism as an economic system is a failure? If so, WRONG. Bzzzzzzztttt. Goodbye, you are the weakest link. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:25:07 AM EDT
[#28]
So Boomer? are you, or have you been Shop Steward or some other union management? I am curious.
Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:27:23 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: So, to keep the airlines from hiring and replacing the 20-year pilots with tons of experience, with pilots with a fresh commercial ticket, the union becomes a necessary evil. If you think the airline would never consider getting rid of experienced people to save a few bucks in wages, you don't know the history of this business. -Anarki 16k to 43k is about right for commuters. the reason is that they have MINIMAL hours. You are working for very little to build hours. All you are doing is making your bones untill you have the hours to fly the big iron or as a corperate pilot. Nothing wrong with that in my book. As in any business, you get paid what your experiance is worth. So you would support the airlines laying off higher paid veteran pilots and replacing them with minimally qualified/experienced lower paid ones? Why not pay a 747 pilot $50K per year, too? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:33:49 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Rockefeller- Standard Oil Trus was broken up by Decree of the Supreme Court in 1913. Only after Rockefeller used every underhanded trick to put his competition out of business. One example is when he manipulated the railroads into charging his competition far more for transportation costs than he enjoyed from the same railroads. Rockefeller then was able to offer his products much cheaper because of the cost disparity and win all of the available business. When his competition was on the brink of bankruptcy, he was gracious enough to buy them out for pennies on the dollar. That is how Rockefeller built Standard Oil. "He stepped on a few people" In Rockefeller's and Standard Oil's case it seems that capitalism failed and the courts fixed it. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:34:24 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: If you step on your employees too much in your quest for wealth, you only two options may eventually be to accept a union in your company or close up shop altogether, move, and find some new employees to abuse. Properly managed companies don't often have to deal with unions. Be fair to your employees and take care of them and they'll do the same in return. It's when owner/manager greed loses sight of that basic golden rule that unions gain a foothold. Sounds like you might be a decent guy to work for if your employees have no reason to organize against you. Get it yet? You have no idea what I pay my employees. For you information I pay them the going rate for the area. Sounds like in your opinion if I don't allow union then I must be stepping on my employees. Thats laughable. If a union came in the first thing they'd do is cause a big upset between management and workers and tell the workers how bad off they are when they aren't bad off at all. The union has to do something to raise wages up high enough so they can suck out the extra money from the workers checks for high union dues. As to your point that the reason I decide when I want to work and when I don't is enjoy work to an extent, but I like to enjoy life too. All work and no play makes CAPITALIST a dull boy |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:36:05 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted: Quoted: Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. What does "stepping on" entail? Is it just being a tough competitor or does it mean things like fraudulent business practices? In my case its tough competition. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Yes, but to others that orbit about your sphere of true capitalism, "stepping on" would include fraud, deception, monopolies, and various other ethically, morally, and legally questionable business practices designed to reduce or eliminate competition, manipulate the market, etc. Competition is a good thing. It's what has lead to our nation being the greatest the world has even seen. Kudos to you for your success. Losing sight of ethics, morals, and a sense of fair play is not a good thing. Just my opinion. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:37:19 AM EDT
[#33]
For a cummuter, thats fine, you don't need someone with 3,000 hours to fly a commuter. And most of the time the pilots are not fired, they quit and move tot he major carriers.
You would not find anyone to fly a 747 for 50k. Supply and demand buddy. If you are rated in a 747 and will fly for 50k then you deserve it. I don't need anyone to tell me what I should be making, or to negotiate FOR me. I get paid what I am worth, or I walk. Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:38:40 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: Rockefeller- Standard Oil Trus was broken up by Decree of the Supreme Court in 1913. Only after Rockefeller used every underhanded trick to put his competition out of business. One example is when he manipulated the railroads into charging his competition far more for transportation costs than he enjoyed from the same railroads. Rockefeller then was able to offer his products much cheaper because of the cost disparity and win all of the available business. When his competition was on the brink of bankruptcy, He was gracious enough to buy out for pennies on the dollar. That is how Rockefeller built Standard Oil. "He stepped on a few people" In Rockefeller's and Standard Oil's case it seems that capitalism failed and the courts fixed it. Wasn't it Rockefeller who underhandedly bankrupted his own brother and ruined his life? Another of capitalism's golden stories? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:39:44 AM EDT
[#35]
OK, everyone way off of poor wittle boom boom....he doesn't play well with others, he's a real man cuz he rides da rails in his wittle choo-choo and is happy to be a union hack and puts others down cuz they don't "think" (I use that word loosely) the same way he does.
Poor boomer the union hack.... |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:41:23 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:41:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Okay, you got me on John Pierpont Morgan, although as financier he did own significant interests in railroads. Better check your own facts. [url=http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAmorgan.htm]John Pierpont Morgan [/url] [i] Morgan had good links with the London financial world and was able to arrange the capital for growing industrial corporations in the United States with money from British bankers. This enabled Morgan to become a member of the board of directors in several of these companies including most of the major railroad companies. By 1902 Morgan controlled over 5,000 miles (8,000 km) of American railroads [/i] As for the rest of your response, do I detect a hint of agreeance that the only way these true capitalists were restrained and prevented from further monopolizing and manipulating our economy was through regulation? Oh my God! The very thought of it! Now what was your point again? Did you erroneously believe I was suggesting that capitalism as an economic system is a failure? If so, WRONG. Bzzzzzzztttt. Goodbye, you are the weakest link.[/quote] Well, Mr. Boomer, I never said Morgan didn't have involvement---and significant involvement----in railroads. However, Morgan is best known as a the finance tycoon of his day---and as the man who put together U. S. Steel. Who said regulation was bad? P. S. The word is "arrogance" |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:42:44 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: OK, everyone way off of poor wittle boom boom....he doesn't play well with others, he's a real man cuz he rides da rails in his wittle choo-choo and is happy to be a union hack and puts others down cuz they don't "think" (I use that word loosely) the same way he does. Poor boomer the union hack.... This guy loves to take cheap shots. Hey SPECTRE why don't you ad some value to the discussion or leave it alone. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:42:49 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: For a cummuter, thats fine, you don't need someone with 3,000 hours to fly a commuter. And most of the time the pilots are not fired, they quit and move tot he major carriers. You would not find anyone to fly a 747 for 50k. Supply and demand buddy. If you are rated in a 747 and will fly for 50k then you deserve it. I don't need anyone to tell me what I should be making, or to negotiate FOR me. I get paid what I am worth, or I walk. So the airlines pay those salaries out of the goodness of their hearts. A strong, well organized pilots union has nothing to do with it. Hmmm, okay. Got any other fairy tales? Once again, you failed to address why a 747 pilot is worth any more than $50K per year. Those things practically fly themselves these days. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:43:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Most people that amass large wealth have to step on many people to get to the top. What does "stepping on" entail? Is it just being a tough competitor or does it mean things like fraudulent business practices? In my case its tough competition. Build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door. Yes, but to others that orbit about your sphere of true capitalism, "stepping on" would include fraud, deception, monopolies, and various other ethically, morally, and legally questionable business practices designed to reduce or eliminate competition, manipulate the market, etc. Competition is a good thing. It's what has lead to our nation being the greatest the world has even seen. Kudos to you for your success. Losing sight of ethics, morals, and a sense of fair play is not a good thing. Just my opinion. DO YOU KNOW ME? AM I AN UNDERHANDED UNMORALISTIC DECEPTIVE BUSINESSMAN? You know nothing about me. About how I donate to the community, about how I'm always there for my family and friends. I am a competative businessman. Being competative in business must mean these evil things to you. The union really brainwashed you. Hopefully you'll pull your head out of your ass one of these days |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:48:17 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: Quoted: OK, everyone way off of poor wittle boom boom....he doesn't play well with others, he's a real man cuz he rides da rails in his wittle choo-choo and is happy to be a union hack and puts others down cuz they don't "think" (I use that word loosely) the same way he does. Poor boomer the union hack.... This guy loves to take cheap shots. Hey SPECTRE why don't you ad some value to the discussion or leave it alone. hey renotse, why don't you go back and read my first post. I took offense to his term "scab" and commented on that. Why don't you look around some more before you shoot your mouth off. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:50:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: You have no idea what I pay my employees. For you information I pay them the going rate for the area. Sounds like in your opinion if I don't allow union then I must be stepping on my employees. Thats laughable. All work and no play makes CAPITALIST a dull boy For a supposedly successful businer owner, you don't seem to comprehend very well. I'm not suggesting that YOUR employee's need to form a union or organize against you. Again, for the record, I said if your employees ARE NOT organizing against you then you must be doing something right. Whether they actually organize into a union or not is out of your control. The best you can do is to treat them fairly and allow them to see that they don't need to organize against you. Once again, since they are not doing that and do not appear to be disgruntled, then they must feel that they are being treated fairly. Can I make that any clearer? If a union came in the first thing they'd do is cause a big upset between management and workers and tell the workers how bad off they are when they aren't bad off at all. The union has to do something to raise wages up high enough so they can suck out the extra money from the workers checks for high union dues. As to your point that the reason I decide when I want to work and when I don't is enjoy work to an extent, but I like to enjoy life too. Do you hire employees that are so easily manipulated? Or do you just not give them enough credit for being intelligent enough to know their worth, look at what they have, and form their own opinions? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:52:29 AM EDT
[#43]
Quoted: This guy loves to take cheap shots. Hey SPECTRE why don't you ad some value to the discussion or leave it alone. I believe it's part of the basic troll's job description. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:53:10 AM EDT
[#44]
Why do you think it is that Boomer won't address the question of what would have happened to those veterans if Aviator and the rest of the Guard [b]hadn't[/b] gone in and cared for them after the valiant, concerned-for-the-people union workers walked out on them?
Scab is what anyone who crosses a picket line is called. What's the word for a person who would walk out on disabled veterans and leave them without care? Any suggestions? |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:53:53 AM EDT
[#45]
Just for the record gents, NAFTA INCREASED employment in the USA. Since NAFTA has passed it has benefited both the USA and Mexico. Ross Perot had his head up his ass about "the giant sucking sound" that would drain jobs from the USA. Were some jobs lost? Yes, but far more jobs were gained. In general I have no problem with unions. People have a right to organize and get higher wages, etc. It is when Unions resort to extortion or criminal activity that I have a problem. I am surprised that no one has mentioed organized crime and its influence in over one hundred unions (local and national). I remember an FBI report on this subject. It wasn't just Jimmy Hoffa and the teamsters, but there were many construction, waste disposal, casino workers, hotel employees and service unions (and others) that were completely corrupt. The New York mob had COMPLETE control of the construction and garbage collection unions in New York City (read Sammy the Bull Gravano's book for details). The union bosses paid themselves rather handsomely and misused union dues and retirement funds for nefarious criminal enterprises (Las Vegas Casinos in the 60's 70's and 80's is a good example). The only union I detest is the Teacher's Union. A corrupt subsidiary of the Democrat Party. The Teacher's union spends over 100 million on political lobbying. In the last election cycle, the union only spent 3 million on education related items vs. 20 times that for the Dems. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:56:11 AM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Well, Mr. Boomer, I never said Morgan didn't have involvement---and significant involvement----in railroads. However, Morgan is best known as a the finance tycoon of his day---and as the man who put together U. S. Steel. Who said regulation was bad? P. S. The word is "arrogance" You were the one who said I should check my facts before posting. I did. J.P. Morgan is also well known for his manipulation of the rialroads of his day. You provided nothing to refute that, but rather nicely expounded upon it. I never said he didn't have involvement in any other industries. You merely provided additional clarity to the point I had already made about capitalism running amok. Thank you. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:57:36 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Whether they actually organize into a union or not is out of your control. The best you can do is to treat them fairly and allow them to see that they don't need to organize against you. You're not getting the point. I do have a say if there is going to be a union or not. I'll close down and restart operations if a union is voted in. For the last time No one and I mean No one is going to tell me how to run my business especially a union and what I have to pay my employees. Things are going good. so I don't have to worry about it. I'm just expressing the way I feel. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 11:59:40 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: So Boomer? are you, or have you been Shop Steward or some other union management? I am curious. The short answer is no. I have been approached about a job within my local, but because I do disagree with a good number of the union's politics, I turned it down. |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:02:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Quoted: Why do you think it is that Boomer won't address the question of what would have happened to those veterans if Aviator and the rest of the Guard [b]hadn't[/b] gone in and cared for them after the valiant, concerned-for-the-people union workers walked out on them? Scab is what anyone who crosses a picket line is called. What's the word for a person who would walk out on disabled veterans and leave them without care? Any suggestions? Yeah, I am waiting for the answer to this one as well.... Aviator [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 5/10/2002 12:03:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Jarhead 22,
Aviator is not a scab. He did not take those workers jobs. He was merely a short term replacement who was indispensible and necessary. The disabled vets could not care for themselves so somebody had to step in and provide assistance. This is simply an act of human decency. Boomer's attacks against Aviator are unfair on this point. Boomer you have decent, relevant arguments from the union perspective but not on this point (IMO). I also see the same old union attacks against "corrupt corporations" but I do not see an admission of corruption on the part of the Unions. There are many corrupt, dishonest Union leaders. |
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