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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:36:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Page 2 is for someone on Reserve at a crashpad.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:41:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." What does this mean? Pilot shortage is bad for business. Pilots would be able to command a premium, and you'd get fewer flights. I see that part but what control do the airlines have on the supply of pilots? They will go to the FAA and either demand that foreign pilots be allowed to fly in the US, allow foreign carriers to fly in the US, or create a multi-crew pilot license. would the FAA actually go for that, after the recent dust-up over outsource mtx? |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:43:15 PM EDT
[#3]
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional.
No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:46:23 PM EDT
[#4]
When I lived in Texas, the guy across the street was a pilot, for American I think. Never asked him what he earned, of course, but they sure as hell weren't hurting. His wife didn't work and they lived in a nice neighborhood and he had a bunch of cool toys. Always assumed he was making at least $100K.
There sure seemed to be a lot of pilots in that expensive little town. It was Flower Mound, for any of you familiar with the area. ETA: He told me that he went to one of those flight schools to get started. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:48:12 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Quoted:
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Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." What does this mean? Pilot shortage is bad for business. Pilots would be able to command a premium, and you'd get fewer flights. I see that part but what control do the airlines have on the supply of pilots? They will go to the FAA and either demand that foreign pilots be allowed to fly in the US, allow foreign carriers to fly in the US, or create a multi-crew pilot license. would the FAA actually go for that, after the recent dust-up over outsource mtx? In my opinion, yes. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:49:31 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. Used to be trash haulers were looked down on. Now they seem to have it good. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:49:37 PM EDT
[#7]
My Dad is a successful corporate pilot, with more than 20 years, including a bunch as Chief Pilot before he took a less stressful position. I grew up as an airport rat, flying along with my dad, helping him fuel and wash planes, etc. I always planned to be a pilot.
When I was in high school, one night Dad sat me down and we had 'the talk' he told me all the bad things about flying, and the job market (this was in 2001-ish) and told me to think long and hard about making it a career. Eventually, I decided to pursue other careers, and I'm glad I did.  |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:50:18 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. And, anyone with an option is voting with their feet. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:56:28 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. And, anyone with an option is voting with their feet. I also went to an aviation university. Of the 10 guys I kept in decent contact with, one is an airline pilot. Three of us are .mil aviators. Most gave up trying to make ends meet as a MEI. We were so young and full of dreams back in 1999. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 1:58:11 PM EDT
[#10]
I'm very surprised that airline pilots make significantly less than locomotive engineers or even truck drivers.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:00:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
I'm very surprised that airline pilots make significantly less than locomotive engineers or even truck drivers. The difference is unions. Pilot unions are weak, and the seniority system is the vestige of a regulated industry. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:10:46 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone dropped that article at my desk. First, we know now that Kit Darby writes as Charisse Jones. Second, there hasn't been a pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur flipped a coin to see who would go first. Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." That is funny. The same thing happened to me today. How that article qualifies as a piece of journalism is beyond me. I could shoot ten holes through it without even thinking about it. I guess it is time to get a new generation in the "school" for the "lucrative" career. A friend of mine teaches an aviation class at a community college for their professional pilot program. He has seen a 75% decrease in enrollment in the last couple years. I guess the word is finally getting out! CFII here restoring cars to get by. 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:12:29 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone dropped that article at my desk. First, we know now that Kit Darby writes as Charisse Jones. Second, there hasn't been a pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur flipped a coin to see who would go first. Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." That is funny. The same thing happened to me today. How that article qualifies as a piece of journalism is beyond me. I could shoot ten holes through it without even thinking about it. I guess it is time to get a new generation in the "school" for the "lucrative" career. A friend of mine teaches an aviation class at a community college for their professional pilot program. He has seen a 75% decrease in enrollment in the last couple years. I guess the word is finally getting out! CFII here restoring cars to get by. Unless you know people at a major, I don't know if I'd recommend staying in the industry. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:12:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. And, anyone with an option is voting with their feet. I also went to an aviation university. Of the 10 guys I kept in decent contact with, one is an airline pilot. Three of us are .mil aviators. Most gave up trying to make ends meet as a MEI. We were so young and full of dreams back in 1999. Sounds familiar. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:18:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted: I cant stop laughing. Fucking sad. At least the Army is hiring pilots  We pilots are our own worst enemy. We get paid so little because a lot of us would literally work for free. This. If you're willing to work for peanuts, don't be surprised or angry when someone tells you that's your worth. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:18:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. And, anyone with an option is voting with their feet. I also went to an aviation university. Of the 10 guys I kept in decent contact with, one is an airline pilot. Three of us are .mil aviators. Most gave up trying to make ends meet as a MEI. We were so young and full of dreams back in 1999. Sounds familiar. I did the aviation university route too but I didn't fly with them. I watched many kids go to the likes of Comair and ASA only to be furloughed a year later, most of them are still out of work. They're all rocking 2500TT with 300PIC and can't get jobs flying anything. I slow played it and have zero SIC time in my logbook. Of course, to get a good paycheck I had to start flying UAV's. I imagine in a few years when all my bills are paid I'll high tail it back to Alaska. Being rich isn't in my future but neither is being miserable. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:18:57 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone dropped that article at my desk. First, we know now that Kit Darby writes as Charisse Jones. Second, there hasn't been a pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur flipped a coin to see who would go first. Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." That is funny. The same thing happened to me today. How that article qualifies as a piece of journalism is beyond me. I could shoot ten holes through it without even thinking about it. I guess it is time to get a new generation in the "school" for the "lucrative" career. A friend of mine teaches an aviation class at a community college for their professional pilot program. He has seen a 75% decrease in enrollment in the last couple years. I guess the word is finally getting out! CFII here restoring cars to get by. Unless you know people at a major, I don't know if I'd recommend staying in the industry. My instructor ticket is about to expire, my wife makes good money and I enjoy taking a pile o crap and making it beautiful. I have my own shop and work at my pace. Guess if I'll renew this time. Pic of my work ( yes I did all, paint, interior, motor ) 72 tii 
ETA correct pic rather than a cave diving one.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:20:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Good info. I've been dreaming of flying helicopters and was about to go through with it until I found out my colorblindness will probably rape me in the rear end.
However, to my benefit, if it did go through, 100% of training is paid for under the Post 9/11 GI Bill and I'd get $1600 a month to go to school, in pocket. Sounds like all I'd end up with though is a CFI job for years until I pulled a ton of strings to get into a decent flying job. The chances of that job being here in FL are probably slim to none. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:22:43 PM EDT
[#19]
I’m confused, and maybe one of you pilots can help me understand this.
I have a close friend that I have known for over 30 years. He’s a retired USAF pilot who now captains a MD11 for FedEx. He makes great money. Is that unusual these days? Do UPS and FedEx pilots do better than the industry as a whole? I am of a certain age where I grew up believing pilots were all well paid due to their having to master some pretty tough skills. Am I just a dottering old guy who doesn’t know what’s going on? I suspect I may be, based on what I'm reading in this thread. Mike |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:23:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
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I attended a top-5 university flight school this previous year and of our 45 graduates we had, 3 actually got a on with an airline, of that one of them is making $12,000/yr. 
No, it's not: Colgan Airlines: Source Airlinepilotcentral.com http://jfc17.smugmug.com/photos/i-V4LthhL/0/O/i-V4LthhL.jpg Taxes are a killer... Not for someone making 23k, they are not 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:24:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Well I guess since almost no one reads USA Today anymore, I'd say they can't afford to pay their "journalists" very well. . . hence the inaccuracies. . . "Ya pay for what ya get"
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:29:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Just saw this thread is still alive,
he is a first year reserve F/O for Great lakes airlines. No Autopilot in those 1900's. About 20 flight hours a week at $16/hour and $1.25hr per diem when 'on call' aka waiting in an airport. $12,000 a year  |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:30:37 PM EDT
[#23]
I watched it as well...
Nothing but an Embry Riddle ad and a lame ploy by Boeing to keep the supply of pilots up and the pay down... ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Truely unfortunate to know the pilot flying you around makes less than the McDonalds hamburger flipper whom prepared your lunch... 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:30:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Someone dropped that article at my desk. First, we know now that Kit Darby writes as Charisse Jones. Second, there hasn't been a pilot shortage since Orville and Wilbur flipped a coin to see who would go first. Third, the airlines will never allow a "pilot shortage." 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:30:57 PM EDT
[#25]
I saw that headline this morning and chuckled as well. I'm not associated with the industry at all, but it struck me as erroneous given what I read here.
How is the maintenance side of the business? Is that over-populated as well? |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:33:27 PM EDT
[#26]
Captains at major airlines do get paid well. FedEx pays very well. My father is a very senior Check Airmen at AA on the 757/767, and he gets paid real well. He also got hired in 1984, and things were different back then. Most majors are not hiring and have thousands of fulloughed pilots. The future isnt too bright, but the 65 cutoff will force some old farts out within a year or so. Quoted:
I’m confused, and maybe one of you pilots can help me understand this. I have a close friend that I have known for over 30 years. He’s a retired USAF pilot who now captains a MD11 for FedEx. He makes great money. Is that unusual these days? Do UPS and FedEx pilots do better than the industry as a whole? I am of a certain age where I grew up believing pilots were all well paid due to their having to master some pretty tough skills. Am I just a dottering old guy who doesn’t know what’s going on? I suspect I may be, based on what I'm reading in this thread. Mike |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:33:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would take a 70% paycut to go fly for the highest paying regional. No thanks. Because of their payrates the airlines are no longer attracting the best and the brightest. And, anyone with an option is voting with their feet. I could have gone to a regional years ago. At my current positon I'm well paid, respected and have a great schedule. Why would I leave? |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:41:49 PM EDT
[#28]
Pilots will become "monitors".
Computers will do the real flying by 2029. 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:45:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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I attended a top-5 university flight school this previous year and of our 45 graduates we had, 3 actually got a on with an airline, of that one of them is making $12,000/yr.
No, it's not: Colgan Airlines: Source Airlinepilotcentral.com http://jfc17.smugmug.com/photos/i-V4LthhL/0/O/i-V4LthhL.jpg Taxes are a killer... How is a guy making $23K paying nearly a 50% tax rate? Thats just one that I picked who happens to have one of the lowest pay rates. If you're hired in May, guess how much money you're going to earn....And yes, you'll pay taxes on it because the only people who take these jobs aren't married. Now, imagine you're earning that $23k and spending $800 per month to repay your flight training loans. Before you've spent a single dime on food, rent, and other ancillaries you're pretty much broke. I'm not saying it's a great job, but it's not $12K a year.... It's 23K a year. And you'll pay some taxes, but not 50%. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:50:15 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Pilots will become "monitors". Computers will do the real flying by 2029. Airbus crews already monitor the FMC.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 2:52:23 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
I’m confused, and maybe one of you pilots can help me understand this. I have a close friend that I have known for over 30 years. He’s a retired USAF pilot who now captains a MD11 for FedEx. He makes great money. Is that unusual these days? Do UPS and FedEx pilots do better than the industry as a whole? I am of a certain age where I grew up believing pilots were all well paid due to their having to master some pretty tough skills. Am I just a dottering old guy who doesn’t know what’s going on? I suspect I may be, based on what I'm reading in this thread. Mike Yes Yes - for now... I imagine when cabatoge occurs the ride will be over. In 2002 the ALPA Board of Directors was very worried about cabotage occurring first with the cargo operations and later the passenger carriers. It would reduce the US pilot force at the majors to a work force the size of the US Merchant Marine or so the thought was. Tin foil on / This "pilot shortage" talk may just be a shaping operation by the ATA and other nefarious groups for cabatoge a.k.a. "open skies". / Foil back off... |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:02:26 PM EDT
[#32]
I sat in a Comair jump seat a few years ago.
The FO had 300 hours total, acquired $120,000 in debt to get his $14,000 a year job. When I asked him why he said he would eventually get the big bucks with a major. I then asked him if he knew that I took a 43% pay cut 3 years ago. That is why there will never be a pilot shortage. Pilots are fucking stupid |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:04:29 PM EDT
[#33]
I saw that on the front page today and just fucking laughed
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:10:34 PM EDT
[#34]
This is a common theme now in most service industries. Manufacturing is completely gone almost from the USA to the point where it's difficult now to find guys who have necessary skills. Meanwhile we all went to school like we were told, racking up HUGE student loans, to enter service industries that are now flooded with people.
Dave_A used to say that we no longer had to be an industrial nation, because that was for peons nations and we had moved up to 100% service nation. That's just not true though. Even service fields in high demands like RNs will sooner or later be saturated. Hell, every chick I know is in school to be an RN right now. They used to say IT was the future, but that's not stopping a lot of those jobs from being outsourced overseas or filled by foreigners with work visas. Bill Gates is always crying that we need more work visas issued, but it's not because he gives a damn about talent it's because he want more available workers to drive down wages. Middle class gets screwed like always. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:13:08 PM EDT
[#35]
You have just now realized that USA Today is off in a fantasy land?
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Posted: 6/21/2011 3:24:19 PM EDT
[#36]
"Everything is going according to plan." |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:21:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
I sat in a Comair jump seat a few years ago. The FO had 300 hours total, acquired $120,000 in debt to get his $14,000 a year job. The fuck? 
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Posted: 6/21/2011 4:41:47 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I sat in a Comair jump seat a few years ago. The FO had 300 hours total, acquired $120,000 in debt to get his $14,000 a year job. The fuck? I think it's pretty common for pilots to put in a few years flying deathtraps for Scrooge McDuck before they have enough flight hours for a decent employer to consider them. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:00:27 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I sat in a Comair jump seat a few years ago. The FO had 300 hours total, acquired $120,000 in debt to get his $14,000 a year job. The fuck? And whats worse is because of the 1500hr rule the regionals are hiring like crazy again. Except for guys like me. They are hiring 400hr FO's who they can grandfather in and pay crap wages. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:01:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I sat in a Comair jump seat a few years ago. The FO had 300 hours total, acquired $120,000 in debt to get his $14,000 a year job. The fuck? I think it's pretty common for pilots to put in a few years flying deathtraps for Scrooge McDuck before they have enough flight hours for a decent employer to consider them. There is no such thing as "a decent employer" in aviation, just the strength of the pilot group and their willingness to be aggressive. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:03:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
In 2002 the ALPA Board of Directors was very worried about cabotage occurring first with the cargo operations and later the passenger carriers. It would reduce the US pilot force at the majors to a work force the size of the US Merchant Marine or so the thought was. Tin foil on / This "pilot shortage" talk may just be a shaping operation by the ATA and other nefarious groups for cabatoge a.k.a. "open skies". / Foil back off... There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that cabotage is the ultimate end state of 95% of airline management. Airline management is the personification of Lenin's statement that a capitalist would sell the rope a revolutionary would use to hang him. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:16:12 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I cant stop laughing. Fucking sad. At least the Army is hiring pilots
We pilots are our own worst enemy. We get paid so little because a lot of us would literally work for free. This. If you're willing to work for peanuts, don't be surprised or angry when someone tells you that's your worth. While that is appealing first glance analysis, the structural factors give management overwhelming negotiating leverage. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 5:56:51 PM EDT
[#43]
Between the flight school enrollment being waaaay down, the 1500 hour rule, and the fact that current pilots are just walking the crap away, maybe enough of a shortage to at least command a better wage. I would no more work for a regional as I would fly on a regional. The majority (if not all) are scum bag operators, using inexperienced and exhausted pilots, and poor maintenance. The end result is a plane full of passengers dies because the pilot stalls the aircraft (a rookie mistake a solo student is trained to avoid) or they crash because they took off on the wrong runway. The regional airlines have made a calculated risk regarding low time pilots and the chance of a bad accident vs. having to pay a real wage to get competent, experienced pilots. Suddenly that "connector" flight doesn't sound so good...does it? To compliment the scum bag regionals there is a littany of pilot mills churning out poorly and minimally trained pilots to shoot right to the commuters. "Zero time to an airline job in a year" is one of the more popular adds that adorns pilot magazines....So here comes little johnny wannabe pilot....you mean all I have to do is pay your school 100,000 grand and I'm an airline pilot.....and you have easy pay financing? hell yes sign me up, I won't even have to pay my dues to be an airline guy, little do they know it will take decades to pay it all back and make a livable wage. It has become an abysmal industry. The Major airlines pay a decent wage but most of the commuter pilots will not see a major job ever. I fly corporate, it has been one hell of a ride, there have been great times, and some real bad times.....but I am currently earning a real decent wage flying some kick ass equipment. I don't advise anyone to go into aviation....unless they are independently wealthy and just love flying.
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Posted: 6/21/2011 7:57:24 PM EDT
[#44]
nvm
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Posted: 6/21/2011 9:57:59 PM EDT
[#45]
I work in on the business side at a big airline. In my general sphere or influence I sometimes come across some of our newer analyst just getting started in their careers. About 1/4 of these new people, who mostly attended Embry Riddle, all thought that being a commercial pilot was a good idea. They all have shit loads of debt, are generally bitter and they all blame the airlines. I don't feel fucking bad for these pilots, they want to get paid for doing something that lots of people would do for free or consider a hobby. Do I sit around feeling bad that semi-pro baseball players get paid next to nothing, nope, they chose that job and they are getting paid to do something that many people would kill for?
From the airlines perspective (at least the big ones) if you need to replace retiring pilots why would you ever hire some kid from Embry Riddle when you could hire an F16 pilot that has thousands of additional hours. I don't know for sure, but I bet any military pilot is a much better gamble than these kids who got ripped off by Embry with tales of riches and high demand. Its almost as big of a scam as Phoenix College and the other for profit colleges. |
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Posted: 6/21/2011 10:34:01 PM EDT
[#46]
lol Embry Riddle, what a joke.
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Posted: 6/22/2011 8:56:57 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
I work in on the business side at a big airline. In my general sphere or influence I sometimes come across some of our newer analyst just getting started in their careers. About 1/4 of these new people, who mostly attended Embry Riddle, all thought that being a commercial pilot was a good idea. They all have shit loads of debt, are generally bitter and they all blame the airlines. I don't feel fucking bad for these pilots, they want to get paid for doing something that lots of people would do for free or consider a hobby. Do I sit around feeling bad that semi-pro baseball players get paid next to nothing, nope, they chose that job and they are getting paid to do something that many people would kill for? From the airlines perspective (at least the big ones) if you need to replace retiring pilots why would you ever hire some kid from Embry Riddle when you could hire an F16 pilot that has thousands of additional hours. I don't know for sure, but I bet any military pilot is a much better gamble than these kids who got ripped off by Embry with tales of riches and high demand. Its almost as big of a scam as Phoenix College and the other for profit colleges. Sometimes, comedy writes itself. |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 8:58:04 AM EDT
[#48]
I almost went to Riddle
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Posted: 6/22/2011 10:13:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I work in on the business side at a big airline. In my general sphere or influence I sometimes come across some of our newer analyst just getting started in their careers. About 1/4 of these new people, who mostly attended Embry Riddle, all thought that being a commercial pilot was a good idea. They all have shit loads of debt, are generally bitter and they all blame the airlines. I don't feel fucking bad for these pilots, they want to get paid for doing something that lots of people would do for free or consider a hobby. Do I sit around feeling bad that semi-pro baseball players get paid next to nothing, nope, they chose that job and they are getting paid to do something that many people would kill for? From the airlines perspective (at least the big ones) if you need to replace retiring pilots why would you ever hire some kid from Embry Riddle when you could hire an F16 pilot that has thousands of additional hours. I don't know for sure, but I bet any military pilot is a much better gamble than these kids who got ripped off by Embry with tales of riches and high demand. Its almost as big of a scam as Phoenix College and the other for profit colleges. Sometimes, comedy writes itself. ? |
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Posted: 6/22/2011 10:16:01 AM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I work in on the business side at a big airline. In my general sphere or influence I sometimes come across some of our newer analyst just getting started in their careers. About 1/4 of these new people, who mostly attended Embry Riddle, all thought that being a commercial pilot was a good idea. They all have shit loads of debt, are generally bitter and they all blame the airlines. I don't feel fucking bad for these pilots, they want to get paid for doing something that lots of people would do for free or consider a hobby. Do I sit around feeling bad that semi-pro baseball players get paid next to nothing, nope, they chose that job and they are getting paid to do something that many people would kill for? From the airlines perspective (at least the big ones) if you need to replace retiring pilots why would you ever hire some kid from Embry Riddle when you could hire an F16 pilot that has thousands of additional hours. I don't know for sure, but I bet any military pilot is a much better gamble than these kids who got ripped off by Embry with tales of riches and high demand. Its almost as big of a scam as Phoenix College and the other for profit colleges. Sometimes, comedy writes itself. ? Your post is comedy, right? Or, were you serious? |
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