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Yeah, here is something else to consider, border patrol agents are not allowed to fire on illegals who throw rocks at them and they do it all the time... maybe if the guy in question spoke Spanish and said he was illegal, they would not have shot.

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gee...why didnt the just shoot him in the leg??

those jbt are out of control.....

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.... here is something else to consider, border patrol agents are not allowed to fire on illegals who throw rocks at them and they do it all the time...

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Yes, I was with  Fish and Game  Law Enforcement Division..for 5 years.... I patrolled alone most of the time and most of my contacts were at night, miles back in the woods, with armed and sometimes drunk people who were outlawing deer , illegally fishing or boating , on closed land etc.You have my respect for that position. Wardens and the like automatically have the deck stacked against them.
I don't know how many arrests or how many people I wrote exactly, I never cared,,, I know that MANY of my contacts I let go .... for minor infractions.
I am not trying to impress you or anyone else.I'm not looking to be impressed, but I also want to make sure you aren't someone that is claiming all these stats on possibly 4 arrests in five years. I don't mind asking questions when someone claims experience on the internet to make sure they are what they claim.
I don't know what "outdated/obsolete/risky" tactics are and don't know how YOU KNOW exactly what I did during contacts....perhaps you are physic or you just assume to much. The Warden issue does put it in a different light. The impression I took from your post was one of an LEO responding to a call, such as a domestic, knowing the person was armed and intoxicated, and handling it all themself. Your tactics are inherently risky, and you don't have a choice. You're always within rifle range.
I DO know that what I see today and what my friends who are still active tell me, is that officers today work much more "in fear" , and are quicker to use force.
I still have friends that are with Fish and Game, State Police and town and city police.

If by "current mentalities" and "modern tactics??" you mean go to force quicker, than yes I was outdated.It's not about just going up force options quicker. It's about being trained to recognize what needs to be dealt with force properly, and what mindsets are maintained because officers are scared to use appropriate force.
I was just sent an article titled  "ZERO to tazed in 17 seconds" ....It was a list of contacts police officers had with motorists ranging in age from 17 years old to 80 year old grandmothers.
What they all had in common was from the time the officer said " License and Registration"  it was 17 seconds or less before the motorist was tazed.
Saw a good one on Fox today.... guy was tazed in the back of the neck while his hands were BOTH on the hood of the squad car...... is that the "modern" tactics you speak of? Without knowing the exact reason the TASER was used on your Fox news instance, I cannot condemn it. Have you seen prison inmates training to take down officers from that position? Were there other refusals to comply with demands? It is not the modern tactics I speak of, but an examples of possible improper training on what force is proper to use. I can't answer to the article without reading it, but I would be interested if you could forward it on. Are their instances of use that is too quick? Yes. Are there instances where officers are too slow to use proper force? Yes, and people get hurt because of both. My area had a small town Chief shot because he knew the guy and decided to go talk to him first. Your initial post had those impressions of the same behavior. If those are the types of tactics you followed during your 5 years, then yes, they were outdated and part of the problem.

You said.... "I've worked a rural area such as yourself, and done the same arrests stupidly like you did."

You assume much....  I dealt with some real hillbillies and never had a huge problem..... I like to think I was well trained by senior officers and I didn't have a chip on my shoulder nor was I AFRAID to do the job. I was a Deputy Sheriff in a rural county for 8 years before my current agency. I dealt with Hillbillies, Indians on the reservations, many times alone in 1000 square miles, all sorts of things as well. Not to thump my chest, but to provide a reference of where I am coming from. You maybe never had a huge problem, but you sound like you're assuming you never could have or weren't someday going to. I never had a chip on my shoulder either, and was frequently complimented on my ability to talk-a real skill when backup is a long ways away and diplomacy is sometimes the method that needs to be used. However, many officers grow lax and complacent and don't realize they're no longer in control-they are alive because the person they are interacting with chooses to let them live.

Which is the REAL PROBLEM with many officers, they're afraid and lash out like a fear biting dog.... OR, there are those that slip through the selection process and are real power trippers. Power trippers, yes, they give us a bad name. Those that are scared of their own shadow, yes, but most of that changes with proper training and experience. Those that are in Condition Yellow and are using their senses to watch for danger, watch for cues, not allow someone to position themselves for an advantage, and to try and do it the same way, every time so as to not get complacent, I don't know that I can fault that. Look at stats of officers killed and assaulted. You got out before you fell into the category that many of them fell in.That could be why you aren't understanding it from the same viewpoint I'm coming from. With more time on the job, you'd see that perspective.

Had an officer stop me and the family not long ago for a burnt out tail light..... he approached us like AL Capone and a hit squad instead of a family of 4 coming home from church.... he knew who he was pulling over because he came up on both sides of my car and checked us out before he lit us up.
I told him if he was THAT afraid to approach a family of 4 at midday on a main street in town, that he needed to find another line of work.
A healthy respect and a certain amount of rational fear is good for the job...... but when you are scared shitless.... you are a danger to the community. You sometimes don't know other factors. Maybe he was checking you out because the car matched another description of an Amber alert, or someone they knew had a warrant. I tell people BS reasons all the time why I need to stop and check them. Again, it's about maintaining the advantage at times. Part of the differences yo uand I are experiencing is because of different perspectives. You need to see it more from the Deputy LEO side on this instance than the Fish and Wildlife side to see why officers are working this way. They are totally different needs.

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Yeah here locally some asshole threw rock at a car and hit a girl in the face and she will be messed up for life now.
 

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He pretty well earned that one.

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Ernest T. Bass?

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Yes, I was with  Fish and Game  Law Enforcement Division..for 5 years....

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He pretty well earned that one.

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You are showing your ignorance in how fast stuff goes bad. See my above link. Also look at the Tueller Drill. Set it up yourself, and see if you could do any better. Record it to video. I guarantee you won't be able to. You also have to deal with the fact you don't have time to ask your partner "Hey, you Taze him, and let me know if you think I need to shoot, ok?" Tell me if it's not working."

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dipper, thank god i never have to work or trust my life to a crybaby like you. wildlife is a completely different then being on the street as a patrol cop. im just curious , but where did you go to B.L.E.T. at? where was the wildlife training academt at? what county did you work? im just thinking you sound full of shit.

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I'm gonna say good shoot on this one...



http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bal-trooper1104,0,7624220.story

Trooper shoots man who police say was throwing rocks at cars
Incident closes portion of westbound Route 40 in Cecil Co. for several hours

10:37 a.m. EST, November 4, 2009

A state trooper shot a 50-year-old man who police said threw large rocks at motorists Tuesday evening in Cecil County and claimed to have a gun when confronted.
Clyde S. Patterson III, a voluntary resident of Perry Point Veterans Affairs Medical Center, was in serious condition at Maryland Shock Trauma Center in Baltimore after the incident, which prompted the closure of a portion of westbound Route 40 for several hours, according to police.

Troopers at the state police North East Barracks received reports from three motorists about 6:15 p.m. that their cars had been hit by large rocks thrown from the side of the road by a man on Route 40 west of Red Toad Road. One driver who stopped to confront the man told police that the suspect pulled a gun from his waistband.

Two troopers found Patterson walking east on Route 40, with one hand in his pocket and an American flag in the other hand, according to police. Patterson threw rocks at them, breaking the driver's side window of one patrol car, police said. Patterson was ordered to surrender but kept repeating that he was going to meet "J.C.," according to police.

As a North East police officer armed with a Taser warned Patterson that he would use the device, the suspect lunged at Trooper First Class James L. Parker, 28, who fired his Beretta .40-caliber pistol, striking Patterson in the upper torso, police said. The North East officer also fired his Taser at Patterson, police said.

Parker, a state trooper of more than three years, has been placed on administrative leave, a routine procedure during police-involved shooting investigations. Police said they did not find a gun on Patterson, but they were continuing to search the area.

Police planned to charge Patterson pending his release from the hospital. No police officers were injured, and none of the motorists whose vehicles were struck by rocks was hurt.

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Call me anything you like, I'm not a crybaby and yes wildlife IS a completely different than being on the street as a patrol cop....KNOW WHY?

Because 99 out of 100 contacts ARE ARMED.... it's a fact... and many contacts are initiated by heard gunfire......and again, most of the time I was alone with 2 or 3 people who had been drinking and who had dead deer or some other game animal with them.... fines got to the $1,000.00 mark pretty quickly and many of the poachers didn't like the fact that they were in for a huge fine, loss of vehicle and firearms.
WE were the only officers that were permitted to search a vehicle WITHOUT A WARRANT.... State Police wasn't, town and city officers were not permitted to search without a warrant.
YEAH, BIG difference...... we had our share of criminals that would come to hide out in the Allegheny National Forest in PA.... that's where I worked in Clearfield, Elk, Jefferson and Cameron counties.
We arrested murders from Florida and other places that chose to hide out in the ANF......
CRYBABY??.... I have walked into camps that had 6 or 8 drunk poachers in it with illegal deer ... all armed.... I'm STILL hear..... YOU would have called SWAT and most officers today would have shit running down their legs... and found something else to do.
Know where many dopers party, that's right, in the woods..... ever walk into a party of high/ stoned people at 2 AM ..... alone miles back in the woods??  Didn't think so...... time to call SWAT.
How about Satanists?? EVER deal with them and their bobby traps??
Know where they have their alters and what they do to protect them??  Didn't think so.

Yeah Wildlife is alot different than riding down main street chasing speeders.... or pulling over families for tail lights.... YEP, BIG FREAKIN DIFFERENCE.
You think all we did is stock fish??..... You think some bad guys don't hide in the forest??
You think we just checked your buck to make sure he was legal??
You think we didn't pull drowning victims out of the river??  OR investigate shootings at state parks where people were killed??

I attended the H.R. Stackhouse school in Bellefonte PA.    That's were we were trained and that's were we did all our re certifications in firearms, Hazmat, CPR, Boating etc.

How about you now smartass?? OR are you full of shit??  Your  turn.

If you think I am being a "cry baby" for questioning why a guy gets shot for throwing rocks,....... YOU are the kind of person I would not want to patrol with.
AND lastly, men that patrolled with me were happy to do so...... even with dealing with some pretty strung out people and angry hillbillies, I was able not to shoot anyone....... OH, on a couple of occasions I COULD HAVE and it would have been a "good" shoot.... but, I would rather let someone who made a bad mistake live if at all possible.... it worked out for me.

Your up Kojac!!!!

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I think I missed the Taze part. The cop skipped it. What's up with that?



Rob

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Start throwing a rocks at me and I'll shoot the SOB too.

Anyone know if they carry the Beretta 96 or the new PX4?

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NEVER said I was the only one that worked the woods.... YES, we were the only officers in PA that could search a vehicle ON THE SPOT with no warrant.... telephonic or otherwise... we needed no permission from a "higher" authority.
Didn't say I was some though cop, lucky, maybe at times I was..... but , like I said before, I think alot of my luck had to do with MY actions and MY demeanor...... yeah, I guess some of you are just smarter than I.



Never said I was BETTER than anyone.... do you have a chip on your shoulder?? I walked into the camps because it was my job and believe it or not, I knew what I was doing.... we had a dozen or so officers for a huge area....back-up was miles and sometimes an hour away... you NEVER knew WHAT you were going to run across. NO, I was in control ... I made sure of that.  How many years do you have to have on the job?? Just wondering what your minimum is ..... what "few" experiences are you talking about??  Some days I approached for one reason or another maybe 100 people. Most officers don't encounter the number of armed people in a decade as I did in a week.



LOL, we were taught that even drawing down on someone was VERY serious... the use of our batons was very serious...... if it was an old man who was obviously out of it, I would have ducked.... Guess what, I have had a rocks thrown at me by a couple of teenage girls who were pissed because I nailed their boyfriends.... they were maced and cuffed..... I damn sure wasn't going to kill them for throwing a rock at me.
For Gods sakes, there were MULTIPLE officers at the scene and they shot an old man.......
I guess things ARE different today for sure..... I guess there is a reason why some police officers are shooting puppies and tazing grandmothers that don't get their seat belts off fast enough.... those pocket books and hat pins are pretty freakin dangerous weapons.



I was VERY comfortable in the job and enjoyed it very much.... a health condition forced me out of it... that's life.
No, you're mistaken, I would not walk up to the door of a barricaded gunman and knock at the door..... it's not that I was unable to shoot someone, I NEVER FELT that I HAD to .... big difference.... sounds like to me you might be the type that says " give me a reason punk" or " go ahead, make my day"
Again, officers that I worked with knew they were covered and we always came home.... you know, sometimes you just have to use your head and not clean up a mistake with a handgun.
We just had a officer killed in my city and his partner seriously injured..... they made a BIG mistake... they confronted a guy with known problems in a fast food joint..... instead of IMMEDIATELY searching him, they proceeded to walk him out to the parking lot, they had him "under control" BUT he was able to pull a handgun out of his waistband and shoot both officers... one in the face and one in the neck... BIG  mistake....I would have searched him at first contact and never let my guard down.
That's the difference.... then many officers responded and they shot the guy...which was proper.... to bad the officers didn't do a search.
I had no AVOIDANCE problem, I just did things in what I like to think was an intelligent way and never dropped my guard or turned my back or positioned myself in a bad way.
Anyway, point is, there ARE many officers out there who are afraid of the job.... it's a fact.
They wouldn't be shooting puppies, braking the arms of unarmed 14 year old kids, ruffing up grandma, shooting homeless people who wave a tree branch around.... wait, I know, tree branches can be as lethal as an AR15, especially when held by a 60 year old beat up homeless guy.....and all the other stuff that happens.....that's why I said that many officers today would have shit running down their legs...... if puppies and grandma, and homeless dude scare you enough to shoot, WHAT THE HELL WOULD THEY DO IF THEY FOUND THEMSELVES ALONE WITH SOME REAL BAD GUYS..... yep, they WOULD shit themselves.

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Really, potential death for throwing rocks.... try shooting Johnny and Jimmy for throwing rocks at cars....( lots of kids do).... and see what happens.
Not saying the guy was right in throwing rocks.... but at the point the police confronted him, I think the rock throwing was probably over.
They shot him because someone said he had a gun... that's why he got shot..... because " he had his hand in his pocket", that's why he got shot.

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Wrong - he got shot because he lunged at the officer deploying the Taser AND there was a report that the guy had pulled a gun on a citizen.

The cops did the proper thing - less than lethal covered by lethal force.  Unfortunately, the old guy jumped straight to lethal force.

Brian

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good. I hope he shot him in the balls. fucker.

I'm sick of people out to wreck other people's stuff.

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THE HELL HE DID!!!
How did the old man jump to lethal force??

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By lunging at the officer(s). People that have guns pointed at them generally don't lunge at the guys pointing guns at them......  Maybe you were a super-cop that could afford to wait to see if the guy pulled a gun from his pocket but I'm not that good and the law recognizes the fact that most of us aren't that good.

I'm not sure if you're stupid or crazy if you really did the things you claimed to have done by your self.

Brian

At this point, you aren't someone I'd want coming to a call I'd be on.
You're the type that would walk up to the door of a barricaded gunman
and knock on the door, and ask if y'all are all right. You were able
not to shoot someone. Sounds to me like you were trying to not have to,
and it's probably better that you found out early on that you weren't
comfortable in the job and got out when you did, before someone got
hurt from your avoidance.

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I just thought I'd preserve this little bit here, just so we know where everyone stands.

"I heard it on ARFCOM" that it's a bad thing to try to avoid having to shoot citizens. Instead, it's better to just shoot if you have the slightest justification for doing so.

Good, I'm glad we're all clear on that now.

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Whatever....
Lunging at an officer is not lethal force..... re read the account.......

Just wanted to add, that if I was stupid or crazy my fellow officers were too.... we all did more or less the same things.....

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I just thought I'd preserve this little bit here, just so we know where everyone stands.

"I heard it on ARFCOM" that it's a bad thing to try to avoid having to shoot citizens. Instead, it's better to just shoot if you have the slightest justification for doing so.

Good, I'm glad we're all clear on that now.

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NO, I like Mexicans just fine.... point is, if throwing rocks gets you shot, why don't they shoot illegals for throwing rocks?? Why do they reserve that for American citizens.... they don't shoot illegals because of the heat they would get over it.... and they should get the same heat over this.

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Yep, there are the " I am scared as hell"  Barnie Fifes and the " make my day punk" Clint Eastwood types.
Just because it would go down as a good shoot, doesn't mean YOU HAVE TO SHOOT.... I was never taught a law that says " you SHALL shoot".

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I took it to mean that Dipper wasn't doing his job (too much use of discretion) in an effort to placate the folks he contacted NOT that he was trying to de-escalate a situation and making the arrests/citations.

Brian

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I took it to mean that Dipper wasn't doing his job (too much use of discretion) in an effort to placate the folks he contacted NOT that he was trying to de-escalate a situation and making the arrests/citations.



Brian

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You mean he was letting people off for minor stuff rather than arrest/cite them out of fear it would escalate to deadly force?

I'm just not buying it that it's a real concern that people are going to go ape shit and kill you over a minor game violation. In the middle of gangland maybe. In the woods? Probably not. We're talking about two totally different kinds of people here. I have never heard of homie rolling up to his tree stand on 20's with the bass pumping and his hunter orange boxers showing because his pants are hanging down around his knees with his realtree hat on sideways.

It sounds like he was using discretion so as not to be a dick over something minor, and give the people a chance to correct their behavior in the future. You know, fish was an inch too long or too short, guy gets a pass. Too bad the ATF doesn't give you a pass if your barrel is an inch too short.